Old Mac - Too Much Of A Good Thing?

[Michael Whitaker]

One of my best friends just returned from his third trip to Bandon Dunes. Before leaving he was very excited about seeing Old Mac. On his return he reported a less than positive experience. He sent me the following note (posted with permission):

I have made 3 trips to Bandon Dunes and love the place. The three original courses are each a pleasure to play. On my third trip I managed to play their newest course, Old MacDonald. I found the course both spectacular and disappointing. Before teeing off the caddies told us repeatedly: "Don't worry about your score this is a match play course." They were right in spades. I found the greens to be almost unplayable as a group. Many of the greens were easily big enough to be double greens with only one or two reasonable pin placements on the entire surface. I get the concept of a "matchplay" course. The difficulties are the same for each player. However at it's heart Old Macdonald will spend most of it's life as a resort course, where people play with a card. For the average player I suspect playing this course with a scorecard will be daunting at best and disheartening at worst. It will be interesting to see if Kaiser asks Doak to soften his green complexes over time. If not I'm not sure I would play it again, opting for another turn around one of the other courses.

[Tom_Doak]

You'll never please everyone.

But if Mr. Keiser does ask me to come back and soften the greens, I'll have to ask why everyone kept wanting us to make them bolder through construction.

Also, I don't really get the thing about it being a "match play course" ... it isn't, any more than my other courses.  And I didn't have the impression that it was that hard to post a score on, from the feedback I'd gotten so far.

What sort of player is your friend, Michael?  Is he a 3, a 10, or a 20?  [I'm guessing a 3 who played it from pretty far back.]

[Rob Miller]

Interesting comments.  Personally, I thought the greens were a bit restrained.  Also, after hearing that someone in front of us posted a 65 on opening day I thought just the opposite in terms of scoring.  For the mid to high-handicapper, there are miles of open space for errant shots.  For the strong player, it is about placement.  For me, room off of the tee and a serious challenge on the green complex is very much welcomed. 

I suppose Old Macdonald is the type of course that will elicit a reaction.  I'm guessing that you either come away loving it or hating it.  Anyway, I couldn't think of a better complement to the host of courses at Bandon. 

[mike_beene]

Golfers tend to shoot what they think they can shoot.Tell them it is tough and up go the scores.

[Rob Peterson]

I've heard the same things about the Castle Course at St. Andrews, which beat me up pretty good even though I felt like I hit the ball decently (8 handicap at the time). I couldn't tell if it was the course that was so over the top or the 50mph wind we had that day.  I didn't feel like the course was as harsh as I expected it to be based on reviews I had read and I loved it.

I've never been to Bandon though.  Anyone played both and have any comment?

Interesting comment Mike...I didn't "know" that Whistling Straits was suppose to be impossible to play before I went and I played well there.  I've always wondered if I would have approached it differently if I had "known" how hard it is!

[Jim Jackson]

Having just returned from a 4 day, 9 round trip to BD, I say exactly the opposite.  I found the course to be exhilarating and fair, but with appropriately demanding approach shots.  Three putts were relatively more common here than the other courses, given the green sizes, but with good shotmaking and good caddying I felt entirely prepared.  As a decent player, I generally know exactly where I am in relation to par throughout a round - and at OM I was so enthralled and challenged that I forgot about score; that has happened maybe twice ever for me, the other time being at CPC.  And at the end of the rounds, my scores were three of the four best of my trip.  I would agree that the green complexes (on the bottle hole and redan for example) were penal for the length shot, but still good shots were rewarded.  Two of my foursome were 12+ hdcps, and their sentiment was similar, and scores were no worse than the other 3 courses.

[Adam Clayman]

Some people just do not like to be challenged outside their wheelhouse.

It's likely a function of the standard maintenance and presentation expectations. Brought on by the wider spread of things like irrigation systems, and championship designs.


Being a sportsman is no longer a prerequisite for being considered a golfer.

 

[Jud_T]

Adam,
Good point.  A 5 Hdcp. Friend of mine came back from Bandon and 1) didn't play the Old Mac preview I'd implored him to because he heard the greens were slow and 2) professed Trails a clear favorite I believe because for the most part it was a more familiar challenge to courses he'd played previously.

[John Kirk]

Played Old Mac four times last week.  On my way back in a couple days to play it a couple more times.  Since I haven't played it as much as the others, I find myself wanting to play it over and over.

It's hard, and some holes have especially severe greens.  Conversely, well played shots with good results are more satisfying.

I birdied the Redan with a perfect 5-iron that bounded up and trickled down to 3 feet from a front pin.  I'll remember that forever.

Have a lot of thoughts...will probably start another thread next week asking a few questions.

[Ronald Montesano]

So if the first date is a little challenging, don't give her another call?

If the friend has already made three trips to Bandon, he has no $$$ worries.  With no $$$ worries, the only reason he wouldn't play it again is, either he doesn't like the course (come right out and state that, although such a declaration after one go round doesn't carry much weight with me) or he doesn't know golf deeply enough to recognize that multiple playings are needed before certain courses reveal themselves to us.

In fact, my wife is a pretty special lady, much more special than I knew on my first date.  I hope that your friend cools off, tells the caddies that there is no such thing as a "match play course" and gives EIEIO another shot the next time he's in Bandon.

[William_G]

Wow, ok Old Mac....Played in the wind there are birdie holes down wind and unreachable par 4s into the wind, think driver, driver, wedge... if you do not like ground game forget scoring at Old Mac...I too don't understand "match play course" in that in match play you are playing an opponent not the course. If you can't take advantage with the opportunities and hang with the non-opportunities, you won't score. You have to hit all kinds of shots at Old Mac , including putts, it does not get much better. Thanks to Urbina, Doak and Keiser!

[Wayne Freeman]

John- good for you on the Redan!  You're probably the only guy who has birdied that hole since the course opened.  We had one of the most experienced caddies at Bandon,  and he said almost no one ever even hits that green.  It's not real fair in my book, but it is what it is, and makes for an interesting and probably never before tried second shot in most cases to try to save par.

    I played 2 rounds there last month and absolutely loved it.  And I think that will be the impression for about 99.99% of golfers.  There's just so much great stuff going on with the vistas, routing, variety of shots, and wild greens.  I never heard from our caddy that it was a match play course and who cares.  It's just a complete blast whether you care about the score or not. On my second round there we were playing in a 3 club wind,  but we just tried to relax and have fun.  We played the holes into the wind from the up tees and those downwind from the very back.  It was so much fun.  And you can score out there if you make some good shots.  I birdied 4 of the last 6 holes to end my trip on a real high.........  For those unfamiliar with the CB greats like National, Chicago, Fishers, and Yale,  here's your chance to experience a bit of that on a public access course.  The road hole and Alps hole are just a couple of the spectacular ones out there. 

[Michael Whitaker]

Tom - My friend is a solid 5... with a handicap that travels well, if you know what I mean. In my opinion he "gets it" when it comes to good architecture... thats one of the reasons he's made three trips all the way out to Oregon from South Carolina - it's easier (and less expensive) to go to the UK from here.

I thought it was fascinating that their caddies "warned" them about Old Mac before they teed off, as that's never happened to them at one of the other Bandon courses. It makes one think that a good number of visitors have had trouble with Old Mac. Otherwise, why would the caddies offer that kind of opinion unsolicited? My friend did not call Old Mac a "matchplay course" - that was the caddies' term.

With all the praise that has been heaped upon Old Mac I thought this differing opinion was interesting... especially since it is being offered by a "true believer."

Guys... I'll send my friend a copy of this thread and ask him for more details but, please, if he chooses to respond let's not attack the messenger because you don't approve of his comments. I know this fellow very well. He is extremely well traveled and appreciates fine golf design as much as any GCA.com member that I have met in person... and, I've met a LOT of you. On another thread Jeff Fortson asked if GCA.com had "jumped the shark." If we can't discuss a topic without attacking the individuals who offer differing opinions then perhaps Jeff is right.

Many of you have picked up on the "matchplay" reference, but this is the part of his comment that I found most interesting:  "I found the greens to be almost unplayable as a group. Many of the greens were easily big enough to be double greens with only one or two reasonable pin placements on the entire surface."

My thoughts are:

1) Why would anyone consider extra large greens to be a "problem"

and

2) How could greens that large offer only "one or two reasonable pin placements on the entire surface"

Are the greens THAT severe and undulating?

[David Botimer]

Old Mac is golfing wise firstly a 2nd shot course.  Put the approach shot in the right spot and the greens are down right tame.  The example that proves the rule is #5, the Short hole, where I've witnessed more near aces and birdies in it's short 2.5 months than any other resort par three,yet easily is the wildest green on the course.

I've also had 2 players in the past two months best their scores on the other resort courses by 10 or more shots on Old Mac.  The first was a 2 handicap and phenomenal ball striker, the second a 17 handicap and very average at all aspects.

Old Mac is an incredible, FUN course.  Calling it a match play course smacks of missing the whole point to the course, the thrill of the journey with a multitude of playing options at every shot.  

So, Mr. Whitaker, one of four things is going on here:

1.  Your friend is a lousy ball striker
2.  Your friend is a lousy putter
3.  Your friends caddie wasn't good enough to help him hit close to the pins
4.  Your friend is Stevie Wonder

[Michael Whitaker]

Cute, David, but 1, 2 and 4 are not the case. I can't speak to #3.

Why would his group's caddies "warn" them about Old Mac and caution them to not keep a scorecard?

[David Botimer]

Cute, David, but 1, 2 and 4 are not the case. I can't speak to #3.

Why would his group's caddies "warn" them about Old Mac and caution them to not keep a scorecard?

Michael, I don't have a clue.  Btw, I just had a 15 y.o. 6 handicapper score 4 birdies and shoot a 78.  It is definitely scoreable with a little focused effort by all parties involved (player AND caddie) ( and a little cooperation from Mother Nature  ).

[John Mayhugh]

I found the greens to be almost unplayable as a group.

Why would his group's caddies "warn" them about Old Mac and caution them to not keep a scorecard?

Michael,
The caddies were probably trying to lower expectations so the player would be happier at the end of the round.

The greens are huge and they are not what one would commonly see.  But unplayable as a group?  Only if you suck at putting. I think some people may not comprehend that getting on the green means a two putt should be forthcoming.  Huge greens will still require well played shots in order to score well.  You just have the chance to two putt even if the approach wasn't particularly good.  Beats being in a bunker or pitching out of the rough.  There are definitely more than one or two reasonable pin placements per green.

Do your opinions of courses usually match your friend's?  Has he played overseas?

Do

[JC Urbina]

Michael,

I understand your friends thoughts on Old Macdonald.  Many times during the construction over the two year period many people stopped in to take a look and on  more then one occasion I mentioned that Old Mac would not be understood by everybody but the majority of the people would be intrigued by the scale and variety of shots that could be attempted.

Just today during a green committee meeting one of the members said he was planing a trip to Bandon this fall and asked if I was happy the way it turned out, I  said yes for the most part but a few may find it a little unconventional.  He laughed and said he was expecting me to tell him how great it was.  Great for some, others maybe no.  Will everyone enjoy the multitude of options top play each hole?  time will tell.

But I can say for certain I don't believe many people will become bored trying.

[Dan Smoot]

I found the greens to be almost unplayable as a group.

Why would his group's caddies "warn" them about Old Mac and caution them to not keep a scorecard?

Michael,
The caddies were probably trying to lower expectations so the player would be happier at the end of the round.

The greens are huge and they are not what one would commonly see.  But unplayable as a group?  Only if you suck at putting. I think some people may not comprehend that getting on the green means a two putt should be forthcoming.  Huge greens will still require well played shots in order to score well.  You just have the chance to two putt even if the approach wasn't particularly good.  Beats being in a bunker or pitching out of the rough.  There are definitely more than one or two reasonable pin placements per green.

Do your opinions of courses usually match your friend's?  Has he played overseas?

I would have to believe that your comment of "not what one would commonly see" has an affect on some people and their perception of OM.  When I have traveled to Bandon, I give myself the caddies advice.  I would venture to say most of us do not regularly see the conditions or design features that these courses present.  The best shot choices for a given situation is not the one we would normally play at home.  I personally am out of my comfort zone in that regard most of the time - I just try to embrace it for the challenge that it is.  How often do many of us really experience the tight lies, firm and fast conditions, possible wind extremes, uneven lies and bunker design/location.  I have watched many a good golfer struggle at times under all these conditions at Bandon.  If I have learned anything about myself (difficult lesson), my golf game has nothing to with the quality of a golf course.

I have yet to play OM, but I have watched the course evolve on three different trips.  It was readily apparent from a distance and confirmed by the posted pictures that this is not a repeat performance in design at Bandon.  It excites me and makes me look forward to the return trip.  There is a lot of enjoyment in just figuring out how to best play a particular hole and pulling off the shot.  At Bandon, I realize I am not  in Kansas (or Wyoming) anymore.

[Anthony Gray]

  Don't get the match play comment.Almost impossible to loose a ball there.Greens are big but pin placements are usually in places where the ball feeds.I couldn't reach some of the par 4s in two but that happens everywhere.Not too much of a good thing,just a different golfing experience.

  Anthony

[Ryan Farrow]

"For the average player I suspect playing this course with a scorecard will be daunting at best and disheartening at worst. "

Michael... Your friend pulled this one out of the the clear blue sky. That statement is absurd, Old-Mac is by far the most friendly scorecard course at bandon. Your friend just has a personal dislike for the course, which is fine.

But his architectural critiques holds no water at all. Its just 100% wrong.

1 or 2 reasonable pins? Really?

[Brett_Morrissy]

Michael,

IMO the large greens are easier and require great additional brain power to get it close to the pin, of course, the larger the green the more chance you have of hitting it - then it comes down to putting, enjoying the undulating internal contours of the putting green.

As soon as you get the pace of the greens, 2 putts are easily available.

I wish I didn't have to travel 17 + hours on a trans-pacific flight and transfers to see it again, I wish I could play it everyday.

[Cristian]

My thoughts are:

1) Why would anyone consider extra large greens to be a "problem"

and

2) How could greens that large offer only "one or two reasonable pin placements on the entire surface"

Are the greens THAT severe and undulating?

These are the two points that struck me as well. Especially your first observation is spot on. Why would greens ever be too large (from a playing perspective)?. Apparently frequent 3-puting from 20-30 yds out frustrates, although a missed up and down every now and then from the same distance would probably be more acceptable. The level of challenge is similar I think, it is just a different challenge.

Remark no. 2 I also do not understand. Yes the greens are very undulating in places, especially at the green edges, but since they are so big, there is still plenty of choice for pin placements, probably even more than on the other courses at Bandon! Only possible exception perhaps the Biarritz, depending on wind direction and strength. When I played early June the green speeds were not severe at all (If you are not from europe you might even say fairly slow), which presented a very fair challenge. I had more fun at Old Mac than at any other course at the resort, for what it is worth.

I wish I did not have to travel 16 hours transAtlantic to get there, and would like to play it more often too!

I am very curious if your friend has ever visited St Andrews, and played TOC. My guess is, if he did, he probably did not like that one much either.

 

[Tim Bert]

Ok - I will stand up and speak for the scorecard crowd. As a low teens handicapper with multiple trips to Bandon under my belt, I found Old Macdonald to be one of the two most playable courses from a strokeplay perspective. First off, it is nearly impossible to lose a ball there which makes blow-ups less likely. Three putts are certainly more likely, as are doubles or triples, but the round wreckers aren't out there like they are at the other courses.

I think that Old Macdonald and Bandon Dunes are the most scoreable for a mid handicapper followed by Pacific Dunes with Bandon Trails bringing up the rear.

My first time around Old Macdonald, I shot 89 with a self-induced blow up 9 on the 18th hole. 80 shots on the first 17 holes. In twenty plus rounds around the other courses at the resort I don't think I have matched that "scorecard" performance.

This sounds to me like sour grapes over some three putts. The caddie comments are completely bizarre to me.  

[Adam Clayman]

Perhaps this whole thing illustrates the importance of a good caddy? Match play courses is usually code for hit it straight or lose a ball. Michael, perhaps this fellow is just creatively challenged around the greens? Or, had a bad caddy. Point! Tip your great caddies very well.