Has GCA.com jumped the shark?

[Bill Brightly]

You know Jeff, if you had started this thread to crticize Acess Whoring it would be one thing. But you ripped the whole DG and said it is dead, USELESS, and that is that really pissed me off.

I said... "in many ways this DG is dead (at least to me it is)"... and I never said it was "USELESS".  I am ok with you not sharing my opinion but please don't misquote me.  Sorry if you felt like I singled you out to upset you this much.  I certainly don't recall mentioning you by name anywhere.

JF

Jeff,
I'll try again to explain to you that you did not upset me because I am an AW. I get mad when thoughtless people go too far in criticizing something I like, something that I am part of, something that I try to help make better. I also prefer people who HELP build, help make things better, rather than WHINEY little people who just complain.

Your rant was so WRONG, and you owe Ran an apology (And a few years of contributions.) I'll help you write it:

Dear Ran,

I am sorry my rant against AWing went too far. I forgot how good your course reviews are and you do a great job with your feature interviews. The CGA outings are superb. I hear the CGA trip to Bandon was oustanding and you did a fantastic job leading the discusssion we had with Tom Doak. Wow, where else can people get this type of gca information?

The DG has some wacky posts, but I realize that there is a lot of great architecture discussion there, as well. I just need to focus on that. This site is still the best place to learn about cga, I realize that. I should NOT have mentioned the website of a fellow CGA poster, that was a dumb mistake, I am sorry.

I realize that access requests happen to EVERY pro at great courses and I should have  known how to deal with them. But you know how hard it is for me to say no, and these little AW's make me crazy and then I say things that I regret later. I am sorry, and attached is my check for all the years I forgot to donate.


I am a man, and know when I go too far, I must stop and apologize.

Regrettfully yours,

Jeff

[Ross Tuddenham]

Jeff

I have to say I have no idea where you are coming from with the criticism of the GCA discussion group.  As someone who is at the beginning of the long road to educating myself on GCA I find all aspects of this site invaluable.  The knowledge of the people on this site, in my opinion, cannot be rivalled on any other golf web resource.

This brings me to the second point which is; you do know this is the internet right?  Look around, most internet forums resort to mother or Nazi insult in about the time it takes a duck hook to hit the deck.  However, here on GCA there seems to be overwhelmingly just extremely helpful people offering well thought out arguments to interesting questions.

Not sure what else you can ask for? 

[SL_Solow]

I am certainly pleased that my plea greater civility has been answered.  Clearly that will not happen today.  So, putting aside the issue of civility for a moment, anyone who does not recognize the validity of Terry's observations about the use of this site to gain access is either naive or has chosen to ignore the issue.  To be sure, this is not a new problem.  From the earliest days of this site there were at least a few participants who aggressively tried to use it to collect courses.  But when more of the participants were veterans, it was easier to identify those whose behaviour was out of bounds and to ostracize them.  The amount of access seeking both on threads and privately has steadily increased.  Candidly, the only way to stop it  is for those who are the targets to refuse all unsolicited requests.  Guests are to be invited.  If the "word" gets out about those who refuse to follow this simple rule, people may wise up and stop using the board for the wrong reasons.

Regarding individuals that one does not appreciate, most of us have no say in who is permitted to post.  If an individual is offensive, the best tactic at this point in time is to ignore him. pointedly.  Make it clear that he is persona non grata (sorry Jud, I hope this one won't require the dictionary) and that his opinions are not worthy of a response.  After awhile, if enough of us ignore him, perhaps he will go away.  If he does not, we will continue to ignore him.

[Phil McDade]

Shel:

My sense is that Ran anticipated this in setting up the Discussion Board. Somewhere in the archives of GCA, Ran once wrote that a website seeking "frank commentary on golf course architecture" would by necessity need to include members of quite exclusive clubs,  because those clubs are home to some of the most notable examples of oustanding and ground-breaking architecture in the game. Ran could presumably solve most if not all of the access issue by eliminating features on the website that allow discussion board members to IM and email each other (GCA is somewhat unusual for a discussion board in that it provides an easy way for members to exchange messages in this manner). Ran has chosen not to do that, and my hunch all along is that Ran not only wanted frank commentary exchanged by members with first-hand experience of great golf architecture, but also saw it as an opportunity -- within the long, friendly and civil traditions of the game itself -- to allow such individuals to invite, if they so choose, discussion board members to their home club who might not otherwise have the opportunity to play those courses.

At its best, this happens quite often on the discussion board -- I'm not sure I ever would've had the chance to play Flossmoor (I'd never even heard much about it ) last year with you and others without the involvement -- and generous invitations -- of folks here. Patrick Mucci, Dan Moore, and dozens of others have organized similar GCA outings, and I have yet to hear anyone say those outings are anything but wonderful opportunities to explore, play and discuss golf courses otherwise beyond the reach (access) of many of us. My sense is that Ran thinks this is a good thing -- in some ways, a logical and wonderful extension of the discussion board.

I'm fairly oblivious to the access issue (largely, I think, because I don't have any access to give...), but I'll take you and Terry's word that it's gotten worse. I think your suggestions are wise, as are others on this and other threads decrying the practice of aggressive access-seeking. Yet I can't help but think that Ran's silence on all of this -- now going into its third day, and remaining on the first page of the DBoard -- is somehow telling. Perhaps he's willing to live with the bad (access seeking) in return for having contacts made quite easily on the board, which I'd argue has led to a lot of good.

[Sean Leary]

Hopefully this thread will help curtail some of the access issues. Many of the long time biggest offenders are well known in private circles, but the stories do amaze me. I wonder if there is a new set of members that have been doing it because they didn't know any better. Hopefully this will end a lot of that.

[Anthony Gray]

As long as we can keep getting great contributions like this everything is going to be fine


 

 

[SL_Solow]

Phil;
        I am not sure what Ran intended, you'll have to ask him.  I agree that the outings in which all are invited are wonderful events.  I have been the recipient of invitations from friends and I have hosted many that I have met on the board.  The key to all of this is that there are always INVITATIONS, not "requests" for access.  When was the last time any of your acquaintances invited himself over to your home for dinner?  I am sure that played very well with your significant other.  Yet there are those on this board who think nothing of asking for a chance to play someone else's course even if they have little or no relationship with that person.  I would wager that Ran did not intend fot that to happen.

[Garland Bayley]

... I'm sick of the elitist mentalities, the groveling access whores, and relatives of famous golfers telling us how the game should be played.  

Bring back Tommy Naccarato.  


Jeff F.  

Maybe it's people who won't accept others for what they are, but instead have to get in the personal slam in return.
A mistake in fact can be corrected. A difference in opinion can be discussed. However, I don't see the need to slam someone that holds different opinions unless they have done something disrespectful to you. (And, my mother always taught me to even let those go by, but sometimes I'm not a very good son in those cases.)

[Craig Van Egmond]

The sad/funny/interesting thing about this whole access issue is that the majority of the people on this board are some of the most generous people when it comes to hosting others. I've received invitations to play courses from people I've never even met, been given guided tours of new golf courses by architects who don't know me from Adam (Clayman that is...) and met and played with some of nicest people on the planet. 

And for that I am very grateful.

[Mike Hendren]

 The key to all of this is that there are always INVITATIONS, not "requests" for access.  When was the last time any of your acquaintances invited himself over to your home for dinner?  I am sure that played very well with your significant other.  

Shel, it it my understanding that you prepare a world class rack of lamb. For what it's worth I am a member of the Rack of Lamb Society and have served as a judge at numerous Rack of Lamb cook-off competitions.   I would welcome the opportunity come to Chicago to enjoy your fellowship and this fine meal at any date and time this that is convenient to you.  I do not in any way wish to impose upon you, your family or your butcher and would insist on paying for the lamb.  Please advise if this is a possibility.  If this requeset is inappropriate, please forgive my inquiry.

Kindest regards,

Mike  

[Jud_T]

Bogey,
Classic.  You forgot the subtle, read between the lines, post lamb mediocre review.

[Jeff Fortson]

The self-appointed Judge (Terry) of GCA.com DG has spoken and made his ruling ably assisted by the collector of access whores (what an awful name, guys), the recently released recluse Jeff Foreskin.

I haven't been called "foreskin" since high school.  Nice one.

Jeff has decided that his whoring days are over, with both he and the less than noble judge placing much of the blame and their frustration on a lone Scot with a lineage as long as anyone else living.

What "whoring days" of mine are you referring to?  I certainly put very little emphasis on you in my original post.  Only after you made  it about you did I unleash my thoughts about you.  I could care less about your lineage.  I think Old Tom would think you're a quack.  Just my opinion.[/color]

Regard that distasteful expression l thought this site would have embraced requests from others to visit their courses as we are only talking of 1500 potential requests.  Of those 1500 worldwide members how many are within easy reach of any said course?

Doesn't matter.  Requesting access unsolicited is rude and deters from the relevance of this site, IMO.[/color]

If you or your club do not offer the ‘courtesy of the course’ to golfers from time to time, that’s no problem as long as it made clear to whoever asks. As simple no, am unable or tha’st not the clubs policy, explained in a honest manner can go a long way with fellow Members of this DG.

People shouldn't ask in the first place.  They should wait for the invite, IMO. [/color]

For some reason or other I find myself with hundreds of offers each year to be the guest of this Club or that. I have arranged on behalf of others the ‘courtesy of a course’, numbers now going into four figures, yet there are times the clubs have had to decline due to one reason or other.  My only real regret was not getting Ernie Payne the courtesy of TOC when we celebrated a recent centenary celebration, but hey that life.

Whether you take up invites is your choice.  As for granting access, that's your right to do so.  Give yourself a giant pat on the back.[/color]

I think when it comes down to the DG I am minded of one great President who said  “Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do  for your country” perhaps a similar commitment by Members using DG in place of country may go a long way in trying to understand the diverse mix of peoples we have on this site, although I accept Americans are in the majority. Perhaps for that reason an interjection of ‘winning the hearts and minds’ (a policy that has never really been implemented by your Government since WW2) or at the very least understand the point of views of other Non Americans may go a long way in improving discussions and thus topics.

Huh?  You lost me here.  Are you really comparing WWII to GCA.com?[/color]

Then what do I know, yet I am surprised that I have not been accused of being the product of inbreeding over the last 250 years  - expect that may yet transpire in future posts.

You beat me to it.  Incest was my next topic with you.[/color]

‘Access Whore’ the term alone is unpleasant and demeans the individual it is directed at, perhaps for no fault of his own apart from being unaware of your clubs/course policy on the matter.  Wouldn’t be novel to be in a position to want to help a fellow member, oh well thank God we have some very kind and considerate guys on this site that do that very thing, pity some other can’t bring themselves to follow those examples. What’s that old saying you can take a horse ops sorry mule to water but you can’t make it drink.

I didn't coin the "access whore" term.  I am using what others call it.  I'm all for people accepting invites to play courses from others on here.  I simply think the idea that this place is the Happy Hunting Grounds for people to gain access through unsolicited advances detracts from the site.  Once again, just my opinion.  If there are people here solely to give access to others then great, by all means take advantage of it.[/color]

May the God(s) of Terry and Jeff try and open up their hearts but please open up their mind first for all our sakes.

For someone so close minded on how the game should be played I find it funny that you ask for God to open our minds.  I have granted access to people before and found that each time I did so from an unsolicited advance i generally regretted it.  Just my experience though.[/color]
Amen

Melvyn

[Garland Bayley]

Jeff,

Melvyn loves you and is just kidding you. He really is quite funny if you lighten up.

[Jeff Fortson]

Jeff,

Melvyn loves you and is just kidding you. He really is quite funny if you lighten up.

I find him hilarious.  I don't know how much "love" he has for me though.  I don't blame him if he hates my guts but someone had to say something, IMO.

JF

[George Pazin]

... but someone had to say something, IMO.

Why?

[Jeff Fortson]

... but someone had to say something, IMO.

Why?

If you need an answer to that question then my response certainly won't resonate.

JF

[George Pazin]

  perfect response. Have a nice weekend.

[JC Jones]

... but someone had to say something, IMO.

Why?

If you need an answer to that question then my response certainly won't resonate.

JF

Good thing you stepped in to save us.  Before this thread, nobody had ever confronted/argued with/engaged Melvyn.  At least not in the last 10 days....

Like I said, your posts and your agenda are transparent and completely unoriginal. 

[Garland Bayley]

... but someone had to say something, IMO.

Why?

If you need an answer to that question then my response certainly won't resonate.

JF

Good thing you stepped in to save us.  Before this thread, nobody had ever confronted/argued with/engaged Melvyn.  At least not in the last 10 days....

Like I said, your posts and your agenda are transparent and completely unoriginal. 

I disagree.

[JC Jones]

... but someone had to say something, IMO.

Why?

If you need an answer to that question then my response certainly won't resonate.

JF

Good thing you stepped in to save us.  Before this thread, nobody had ever confronted/argued with/engaged Melvyn.  At least not in the last 10 days....

Like I said, your posts and your agenda are transparent and completely unoriginal. 

I disagree.

Why dont you go to the library and interlibrary loan the most expense golf book ever published. 

[Garland Bayley]

... but someone had to say something, IMO.

Why?

If you need an answer to that question then my response certainly won't resonate.

JF

Good thing you stepped in to save us.  Before this thread, nobody had ever confronted/argued with/engaged Melvyn.  At least not in the last 10 days....

Like I said, your posts and your agenda are transparent and completely unoriginal. 

I disagree.

Why dont you go to the library and interlibrary loan the most expense golf book ever published. 

I'd rather download it to my Kindle.

[JC Jones]

I'd rather download it to my Kindle.

Real men use iPads.  No wonder Kalen kicked your butt.

[Garland Bayley]

I'd rather download it to my Kindle.

Real men use iPads.  No wonder Kalen kicked your butt.

Ya, right. Steve Jobs is a real man. 

[Bill Brightly]

Melvyn,

I know that Jeff personally attacked you, but do me a favor, let others deal with this guy, ok?

Jeff,

I see you continue to pick on Melvyn. Do me a favor, leave him alone and take a shot at responding to ME. Show us the letter of apology that you need to send to Ran.

You say you have received many private messages supporting your trashing of this website? Post then names!!!  Or tell them to show some courage and respond here.

Here is a sampling of the TRIPE you posted:

 When I joined, I was thrilled to see that there were other people out there interested in the importance of course architecture.  There was a common vibe that we were the few people in the golf world that cared when a great course would get destroyed by a renovation or saw the beauty in an unknown or forgotten about gem that time had left behind.


Give us  break, how self-serving can you be...We should bow to one of the chosen few who found this site in 2000?

[Jeff Fortson]

Melvyn,

I know that Jeff personally attacked you, but do me a favor, let others deal with this guy, ok?

Jeff,

I see you continue to pick on Melvyn. Do me a favor, leave him alone and take a shot at respondig to ME. Show us the letter of apology that you need to send to Ran.

You say you have received many private messages supporting your trashing of this website? Post then names!!!  Or tllthem o show some courag and respond here.

Here is a sampling of the TRIPE you posted:

 When I joined, I was thrilled to see that there were other people out there interested in the importance of course architecture.  There was a common vibe that we were the few people in the golf world that cared when a great course would get destroyed by a renovation or saw the beauty in an unknown or forgotten about gem that time had left behind.


Give us  break, how self-serving can you be...Ws should bow to oneofe chosn few who foundthis site in 2000?

Why should I post the names of people that sent me private messages?  I think the idea of them sending me a "private" message was to keep it private. If they want to chime in I am sure they will.  I don't feel any need to persuade people to come to my defense.  My comments stand from my original post. 

As for the quote you highlighted as "TRIPE", I find nothing self-serving about it.  I joined becuase there was a pretty collective view here that resonated with me.  Where did I ever say anyone should "bow" to me or others from the early days?  This is all on your assumption, as is taking offense personally from my original post which never even mentioned you.  I didn't even know who you were until you chose to comment on this thread.

Jeff