[John Moore II]

John,

One of the examples you are giving there is a question on deals relating to National Memberships.  Interpretations of other posts notwithstanding, how is that access whoring?  I actually just recently joined as a National Member a top 100 modern, the GM and Head Pro of which actually responded in that thread.  I'd hate to think if I or another had started a similar thread that I/we would get branded an access whore.

I suppose I don't see the access whore issue as being as rampant as suggested.  Perhaps because it is happening more via e-mail and PM's as opposed to via the public threads.  I have no reason to doubt Mr. Lavin statements, so it must be a lot of (attempted) back channel communications.  I just don't see it jumping out at me from the threads.

You've highlighted 1 out of 1500, and frankly I don't even take all the examples from that one to be on topic.

You are partially correct, in regards to the National Membership thread. It all depends on the tone. He was being very specific about which kind of course he wanted, not what kind of atmosphere. To say "which clubs are offering deals on national memberships" or "which top 100 courses are offering national memberships" is completely different. It all depends on how you post it.

[Terry Lavin]

And no, I don't think the site has jumped the proverbial shark.  It's just getting periodically stressed, like all organic entities will get periodically stressed.

[Jeff Fortson]

Time and time again I make it clear that it’s my opinion that I am voicing on this site, a DG site on the internet.

I have also stated time and again that I have no authority or legal standing in the R&A or any legal body so no way of changing any rules, so why are you so scared about my opinions or is it the tone in which you believe I submit my posts? I can’t tell people what to do, and anyway who would listen to me if I even tried. I am accused of mentioning family members on nearly every post that not true and easily proven by checking my posts. 

I have no power, very little influence so just what is your problem. Is what I am say hitting some nerve or making you feel guilty, I have no idea but I know one thing that is if you are indeed a Judge Terry then God help anyone who does not agree with you – you sound like our old Judge Jefferies who condemn men to the gallows for nearly any reason.

I see a witch hunt here, worst still I see a nasty form of censorship falling upon this site. You and your Merry Men (Men in Black) trying to rule by verbal intimidation. Yet why are you scared of a little now isolated Scotsman, what is it really that frightens you a non-existent tone you feel you are detecting.

If Ran or all the others want me to leave I will willing do so, in fact if Jeff had not dragged me back by this topic I would have quietly left. Don’t believe me ask Mac, George and a few others. But I will not be driven out by bigots like you and Jeff. So thanks to this post I am staying to fight your type of nasty bullying censorship.

The silent majority can make a stand if they wish or keep quiet until you (Men in Black) decide to attack another Member.

Look in the mirror guys it’s you with the poisonous attitudes and opinions, it’s you guys who want me silenced and off this site. Who really are the bullies you lot or me.

As for golf, yes I play the traditional game, I keep faith by walking and thinking for myself, I play courses that offer a challenge as I believe Golf requires a commitment to play it in its honest form.

Do your worst Jeff, Terry and anyone else who would be happy to see me leave.

Melvyn

Melvyn,

You attack people all the time.  You're a sham.  You took what could have been a valuable resource, your family name, and squandered it on this DG, IMO.  In person, you might be the nicest person alive, but on here you come off as a rambling lunatic. At least that's my opinion.  

The funny part is that I agree golf is a game that should be walked.  I also agree that range finders detract from the sport.  But, when you use your family name to put muscle behind your opinions you better be able to back them up.  You have been asked multiple times to answer the "featherie vs. guttie" issue about Old Tom and how you could be sure that he wasn't an avid supporter of making the sport easier via technology.  You reply with "agree with me or not that's down to you and others".  Is that a substantive answer that proves anything?  So, you want to use Old Tom as a weapon to give weight to your opinion and then when questioned about Old Tom's actions and motives we are to assume that you just "know" what he would think based on the fact that you are his descendant?  See how that doesn't really have weight?

I can tell you that I really don't care if you are the descendant of Old Tom Morris.  I've been to St. Andrews and Scotland three times.  I love it.  I have played the Old Course nine times.  I have had my picture taken at the Young Tom grave site.  I have worked for the R&A at the Open Championship at St. Andrews.  I have a deep appreciation for the history and roots of the sport.  I guess that is why I have such a problem with what I perceive to be a total injustice to your forefathers good name.

I am certainly not bigoted and not a bully.  I haven't been active here for quite a while.  I am not trying to censor you.  Speak your mind.  Please!  I, for one, just refuse to sit back and watch YOU bully others with your family name.

Jeff F.

[George Pazin]

The Access Whoring appears to be at an all-time high and it's ridiculously transparent.  

Examples?

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44989.0/
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42431.msg955717/#msg955717
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43951.0/
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43973.0/

And all those by the same person; shamefully, one of those threads I thought was ok and even on topic.

And honestly, I hope none of my posts about "Golf courses in XX City" have come off as trying to get any access. That has never been my intention. My sole intention on those threads was to get input on what public courses were the best places to see while I was there.

If all of your examples are of one person, then maybe it's just that one person that is the problem. And maybe he just felt he was being straight-up honest among friends.

I feel for those being inundated with requests, but if that's the worst thing you can say about this site, that's a pretty good thing, imho.

[Gary Slatter]

Melvyn, I invite you to answer my question from post #100:

How is it that you know how Old Tom would feel about 21st century technological advances and how did Old Tom, during his lifetime, demonstrate the feelings you are attributing to him?

Scott:  that is an interesting question - one I'd like Melvyn to take a stab at answering.  I believe that since the time game was first invented, golfers have craved better B&I.  I believe that Old Tom probably marketed the fact that he built better B&I.  When you've got the goods, it's not only smart business, but also human nature to say so.  So I don't automatically believe this stuff about how the ODGs would be appauled by today's technology.  Perhaps the length aspect would bother them, but not necessarily the rest of it.

For example, personally, I believe that if somebody had invented the Long Putter back in Old Tom's time, and Old Tom saw him using it to putt, Old Tom would have come over to that fellow and said "Sir, may I try that?" and if Old Tom started making everything he looked at with it, it'd have gone in Old Tom's bag immediately!!  

Melvyn, if you disagree, fire away...

If allowed to mark his ball with a 10 pence piece, do you think Old Tom would have put the seam of his feathery down in such a way as to point the direction towards the hole??  

why would Old Tom be marking his ball?

[John Moore II]

Melvyn, I invite you to answer my question from post #100:

How is it that you know how Old Tom would feel about 21st century technological advances and how did Old Tom, during his lifetime, demonstrate the feelings you are attributing to him?

Scott:  that is an interesting question - one I'd like Melvyn to take a stab at answering.  I believe that since the time game was first invented, golfers have craved better B&I.  I believe that Old Tom probably marketed the fact that he built better B&I.  When you've got the goods, it's not only smart business, but also human nature to say so.  So I don't automatically believe this stuff about how the ODGs would be appauled by today's technology.  Perhaps the length aspect would bother them, but not necessarily the rest of it.

For example, personally, I believe that if somebody had invented the Long Putter back in Old Tom's time, and Old Tom saw him using it to putt, Old Tom would have come over to that fellow and said "Sir, may I try that?" and if Old Tom started making everything he looked at with it, it'd have gone in Old Tom's bag immediately!!  

Melvyn, if you disagree, fire away...

If allowed to mark his ball with a 10 pence piece, do you think Old Tom would have put the seam of his feathery down in such a way as to point the direction towards the hole??  

why would Old Tom be marking his ball?

On the green of course...note that I added in 'if allowed to mark his ball'  I am aware that in 1865~ players were not allowed to mark balls anywhere on the course. My post was meant as a joke aimed at Shivas and his Cheater Line rants. He got it. 

[JC Jones]

The Access Whoring appears to be at an all-time high and it's ridiculously transparent.  

Examples?

I'll give you a very common AW approach.  A poster who never adds anything of any significance in any of his posts contacts a panel member whom he has discovered is a member of an exclusive Long Island club and asks about getting on to play and adds that he's "a Golfweek rater" and that he'll "talk the club up" on gca.com.  This sort of stuff goes on all the time.  Then there are the threads that ask for any information about "XXX Country Club", with no indication early in the thread or later on in the thread that the poster has an active interest in the architectural bona fides of the place, he's merely waiting for a member or somebody who knows a member who will schedule a round for him while he's "passing through on business".  Generally speaking, the AW has nothing to provide "in kind" and does precious little for the site other than to make himself available for an invitation to a private club.

Come on, Judge.  You know that doesn't fly.

If so, I'm going to instruct my students that if they are ever in front of Judge Lavin in Chicago and he asks them for some evidence that they can respond with some general, speculative modus operandi and he'll be ok with it.

[Jud_T]

Best thing to come out of this thread: The tweet-ready moniker "AW'!

[Terry Lavin]

J.C.,

I'm trying to be a bit obtuse, because it is beneath me to name names, but one would have to be extremely obtuse, to the point of being mortally obtunded, to not acknowledge that we have a raft of AW's among us.  If you want any more specificity, it ain't gonna come from moi...

[JC Jones]

J.C.,

I'm trying to be a bit obtuse, because it is beneath me to name names, but one would have to be extremely obtuse, to the point of being mortally obtunded, to not acknowledge that we have a raft of AW's among us.  If you want any more specificity, it ain't gonna come from moi...

well, ahoy palloi, where did you come from, a scotch ad?

As a lawyer, do you find it beneath you to use logical fallacies when debating?

[Terry Lavin]

Prattle on, law dog, but you can do so with the knowledge that I'm not talking about you.

[JC Jones]

Prattle on, law dog, but you can do so with the knowledge that I'm not talking about you.

You mean I start the most blatant access request in the history of GCA.com and I can't even make the list of access whores?  I'm going to have to try harder next time.

[Roger Wolfe]

Best way to get the look is by making friends who love golf and golf courses, not because you're looking for a handout of a bedpost notch but because you genuinely enjoy same. 

Best way to lose friends who love golf and golf courses: blatently asking for access to a Top 100 course

What is wrong with just saying, "No?"  I would take it as a compliment if someone asked to play my club.  The folks on this
site who consider themselves to be part of an "upper golfing class" because of their disposable income are truly pathetic and
represent everything wrong with our industry.  Just shut up and golf for chrissakes.

[JC Jones]

Best way to get the look is by making friends who love golf and golf courses, not because you're looking for a handout of a bedpost notch but because you genuinely enjoy same. 

Best way to lose friends who love golf and golf courses: blatently asking for access to a Top 100 course

What is wrong with just saying, "No?"  I would take it as a compliment if someone asked to play my club.  The folks on this
site who consider themselves to be part of an "upper golfing class" because of their disposable income are truly pathetic and
represent everything wrong with our industry.  Just shut up and golf for chrissakes.

I'm a part of an upper golfing class. 

Speaking of, when are we going to play Charlotte Golf Links.  I've been here 2 weeks now and haven't picked up a stick.

[Chris Shaida]

J.C.,

I'm trying to be a bit obtuse, because it is beneath me to name names, but one would have to be extremely obtuse, to the point of being mortally obtunded, to not acknowledge that we have a raft of AW's among us.  If you want any more specificity, it ain't gonna come from moi...

well, ahoy palloi, where did you come from, a scotch ad?

As a lawyer, do you find it beneath you to use logical fallacies when debating?

Well, ya gotta give Terry props for the use of 'obtunded', gotta be a first on gca? (although not to be too persnickety (I'm no Scottish grammarian afterall!) but I'm not really sure that it's a class A example sentence for the word's coming out ball, as it were)

[Jud_T]

Best way to get the look is by making friends who love golf and golf courses, not because you're looking for a handout of a bedpost notch but because you genuinely enjoy same. 

Best way to lose friends who love golf and golf courses: blatently asking for access to a Top 100 course

What is wrong with just saying, "No?"  I would take it as a compliment if someone asked to play my club.  The folks on this
site who consider themselves to be part of an "upper golfing class" because of their disposable income are truly pathetic and
represent everything wrong with our industry.  Just shut up and golf for chrissakes.

Roger,

I certainly don't consider myself part of an upper golfing class and my disposable income ain't what it used to be...Just as there's an etiquette to playing the game, I feel that it's completely innappropriate to ever invite myself to someone's club, even a close friend's.  It's tantamount to me calling you up out of the blue and saying, "Hey, I'm going to be in town.  Mind if I stop by for a home-cooked meal at your house?".  It's called manners my friend, and it has nothing to do with money.....

[Chris Shaida]

Hey Jud,

People call me up all the a time and invite themselves over to my house for a home-cooked meal--but then my cooking is a whole lot better than my (non-access-whore-seeking) clubs.  I guess that makes them HCMWs.  Who knew! (and who says one doesn't learn new things on GCA.com everyday!)

[Tim Leahy]

Skip the topics you don't like, don't agree with or have no interest in. You don't have to get personal or rude about it. It seems simple to me!

[Sven Nilsen]

Skip the topics you don't like, don't agree with or have no interest in. You don't have to get personal or rude about it. It seems simple to me!

This.

[Joel Zuckerman]

What is wrong with just saying, "No?"  I would take it as a compliment if someone asked to play my club.  

I think that sums things up nicely, Roger.  And one point I haven't seen mentioned in this thread:  Having someone out to your club (regardless of who did the asking) can be good in terms of developing relationships, good in terms of a (hopefully) fun round of golf, and good for the club's bottom line. In this day/age especially, members should be trying to get guests out to their club..daily revenue, guest fees, food/drink, and the off chance that their guest is so impressed they consider the club a viable option for themselves. 

[JC Jones]

What is wrong with just saying, "No?"  I would take it as a compliment if someone asked to play my club.  

I think that sums things up nicely, Roger.  And one point I haven't seen mentioned in this thread:  Having someone out to your club (regardless of who did the asking) can be good in terms of developing relationships, good in terms of a (hopefully) fun round of golf, and good for the club's bottom line. In this day/age especially, members should be trying to get guests out to their club..daily revenue, guest fees, food/drink, and the off chance that their guest is so impressed they consider the club a viable option for themselves. 

Joel,

Will you host me at your club?

[Joel Zuckerman]

Joel,

Will you host me at your club?

I would be happy to, schedule permitting.

I've hosted Mac Plumart, Eric Smith, Mark Pritchett, Shane Wright, Kalen Braley and Jed Rammel at various points in SC, Utah and Wisconsin, and all encounters were extremely pleasant....so I'm totally game.

[Mac Plumart]

FYI...

Joel is a great host.  You will have a blast!

[JC Jones]

Thanks, Joel.

For all you fellow AW's out there, transparency can be as effective as clandestine tactics.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Perhaps we should re name this site “THE HOUSE OF THE RISING SUN” courtesy of The Animals. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmdPQp6Jcdk

Seems very appropriate, but I feel that perhaps the Groups name is far more fitting to describe certain individuals performance when related to fellow members. Clearly the meek will not inherit here nor will the hand of friendship survive for long with the current attitudes.

Melvyn
 

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