[Richard_Goodale]

Loren Roberts (who should know!) says that the ground game is kaput at BB.  It's going to be bombs away, according to him.  Is that what Tille or the USGA wanted?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich Goodale,

How is the ground game at Bethpage Black different from the ground game at Winged Foot, Baltusrol, and Quaker Ridge.

And to take it a radical step further, how is it different from
ANGC where almost every green is open in front, yet almost everyone plays the aerial game to every green ??

[Tim_Weiman]

Pat Mucci:

My memory of Bethpage Black is fading, but I agree with your suggestion that the ground game really isn't a feature of many of the holes.

If anyone disagrees with that assessment, I'd be interested in a hole-by-hole breakdown.

[Richard_Goodale]

Patrick

As you know, I have played none of the courses in question.  You'll have to ask Loren Roberts.

Rich

PS--I am very much, and for a long time, on record as saying that one of the characteristics of a truly GREAT course is that while the ground game is achievable, the aerial game is very much preferable and possible for the accomplished player.

[Gene Greco]

The ground game comes into play on the following holes:

1 - for a pin cut in the front
4 - for the approach for smart players who lay up to the right. It is a classic bump and run.
6 - for a pin cut front left
7 - for pins cut in the front
11 - for pins up front
13 - for approach to par 5 for players who lay it up pin high left.
16 - pin left front

[Justin_Zook]

If things work out, I should play the Black Course around the middle of March.  That is though, contingent, on things working out, which often doesn't happen.  I'll be sure though, to bring a camera along and take lots of pictures, so Rich, if you'd like, perhaps I could send you copies, or for that matter, post a few of the good ones here.  So I'll keep a watch out for places where a pitch and run would be the best shot to play.  

[Richard_Goodale]

Great stuff, Justin.  Please do send any pictures you can to this site.

Cheers

Rich

[Tim_Weiman]

Gene:

Thanks.  I guess my memory is about half good.

[Don_Mahaffey]

I've never been to New York, so my knowledge of the course is limited to what has been written about the course recently and what I've learned on this DG.

IMHO, the ground game will be a feature of the tournament if the set-up calls for it and the weather stays dry. If the USGA wants the players to consider ground conditions they need rock hard fairways and firm, hard greens. If that is the case, the players will have to figure in the ground conditions. They may still fly it to a green, but where they land on a green will be critical, and we all know how hard firm, fast fairways bordered by long rough can play. I hope the USGA pushes the envelop in terms of how fast they get the course. I am growing very tired of the set-ups I'm seeing each week on the PGA tour. Anyone see where they had the tee on 18 today at Doral? I guess they were afraid the wind might come up and challenge the players so they turned a good finishing hole into a driver/SW. We wouldn't want to see anyone embarrass themselves.

[Justin_Zook]

Good point, who else is tired of most everything on the PGA Tour?  There might be maybe 8 or 9 good tournaments out there on the tour anymore, not including majors.  Anyway, it seems that the only game they call for is a long, long, long drive, a nice flip of the wedge, and a 10 foot putt.  If you can't hit it past 280, you virtually have no chance of winning.  It seems that the only time strategic thinking is required is when the players find themselves in a bit of trouble.  I am getting bored.  Hopefully the factors align themselves at Bethpage this summer as to encourage some real shot making, and not just the boring PGA Tour golf we see today.

[Jamie Duffner]

I'm not sure any US Open is set up for much of a ground game.  The USGA has implemented some chipping areas and then has felt pretty good about "restoring the ground game."  At BB there could be a few interesting areas where they could shave down certain greenside areas; front of 2, long 3, all around 6, long left 8, long 11 and 12, all around 15, short 18.  This could create some interesting collection areas.  BB has openings to most holes, the question for the USGA will be do they leave those areas at fariway height?  On most holes, yes, otherwise it would look ridiculous to have a tuft of rough, but on others where the green is elevated (2,4,11,12,15,17,18) or a depression fronts the green (10,6 sort of) they may grow rough or pinch the fairway in to real tight proportions.

Nonetheless, as Rich points out, the accomplished player will be flying the ball to the green.  If the greens are hard and fast, then you will see if there are intresting collection areas to capture the not-so-well struck ball, or just thick rough.  I know I sound like a broken record, but for BB, if hard and fast, the "flatish" greens will allow for some very interesting and hard to find hole locations.

[bethpageblack75]

Watch your scheduling - Black will be open from a date in April (unannounced) until May 28.  Each golfer will limited to one oppurtunity in that window.  
The time to play it was in last October-November during the unusally temperate season. I got on weekly with little problem.

[bethpageblack75]

Black is strictly an aerial course. I played it eight times during fall of 2001.  Big drives, carries  followed by long approaches. A bombers layout. You must be long to play this course. It is not a shotmakers course. With so many long approaches into greens it is not a bump and run atmosphere. When you get out there walking Black the relentless bombing gets into your skull.  Also, the fairways on this course yield little or no roll, obviously making it play longer.
Any shot making on Black will be centered on it's unique bunkering.
The only exception to driver is the second hole - short dogleg left downhill off the tee. That is the only hole when driver is not used (and unfortunatly, maybe 18).

[BCrosby]

I did not want to let pass an observation above that the ground game at ANGC is dead.  Players frequently bounce shots into #5, #11 and #14, depending, of course, on pin locations.

#8 is a par 5, so I won't count that hole.  

Until Maxwell got his hands on #1 and #7, they too would have offered attractive ground options.  Ditto for #17 before someone (Maxwell?) changed that green complex.

Bob    

[Mark_Huxford]

Rich, my friend Bruce Strober from NY took some photos of the course last year. Holes, 1, 7, 11, 12 and 13 seem to be the only greens with fairway entrances although players have a bail out area right of the par 5 4th hole where many may try to place their second shots.

I was surprised to see numerous par fours on the course where it appears rough has actually been deliberately grown in front of the green. Here's an example from the 6th hole. Note the forced lay-up at the top of the hill also.

http://jove.prohosting.com/~hux/bethpage.html

Surely these are USGA/Rees Jones changes?

[Bruceski]

I'm Mark Huxford's friend, Bruce Strober. I went to a low handicapper tournament last August at Bethpage Black. The course setup that day -- I was explicitly told by one of the players -- pretty much duplicates the US Open setup. As a matter of fact, the tournaments played last year were kind of "dry runs" for the real McCoy this June.

The following holes are par 4's on the Black Course that eliminate any run-up option to the green: 2, 5, 6, 9, 10, 15, and 18. This doesn't even include the par 3's (numbers 3, 8, 14, and 17) that have no fronting collar of fairway allowing for a run up shot. Therefore 11 of the 18 holes force a carry to the green, usually with a mid-to-long iron. The only issue is if the USGA elects to include some collection areas around some of the greens. Otherwise, it's going to a "bombs away" kind of event that clearly favors the longer hitter. The uniqueness of the US Open at Bethpage will be that the medium-lengthed, yet straight driver of the golf ball will not be at an advantage (as in past US Opens). That kind of player will often need to hold his 200+ yd approaches (or tees shots) on the greens, some of which are markedly elevated.

[Matt_Ward]

There was no need to grow rough like grass (at secondary height) at the bottom of the hill for #6. You could also leave grass at fairway height leading up to that hole. Why there was a change still confuses me.

As far as the idea of an aerial game the opportunities at the Black are limited as mentioned by Bruceski. I do agree with his assessment that the medium-range player who usually does well in past Opens may be lessof a factor given the increased yardage the course calls for and because with many of the targets elevated you'll need to be considerable ways down the fairway to control the height distance of your approaches. Players firing in with 2-3 irons will not have what it takes to go the distance against the likes of Tiger, Phil, who are hitting mid to short irons.

Bethpage is about fastball hitting players on most occasions. Of course, if the course is bone dry and players can run out shots off the tee the advantage will be somewhat mitigated. The grow-in phase this spring will be a major questionmark for what we see in June and who ultimately contends.

[brad_miller]

Our current drought her in the ny metro area may be good for one thing, f&f fairways, but the rough may suffer

[Frank Pasquale]

If Bruceski is referring to the Long Island Public Links Championship in August, I played in that event, and the course was set up as difficult as I have ever seen it.  The first day it played at about 6,900-7,000 and it was playable.  The second day, it was stretched almost to its limits, and to make things more brutal, there was a 2-3 club wind.  From the new tee on ten (behind the cart path) into the wind, I could not reach the fairway.  Many of the par 4's played as par 4 1/2-5.  After that, much of the talk has been about the wind.  All of the regulars are hoping for one windy day, just to see how the pros handle it on that course.

Also, some people are saying the players will hit driver 13 times.  I disagree with that.  The fairways are narrow.  Right off the bat, I would say you will see 3 wood/ 2 iron on the following holes: 1, 2, 6, maybe 9, 18.  Also, I wouldnt be surprised if guys hit 3 wood on 15, because missing that fairway is so much more penal, as the second shot from the rough on that hole is probably the toughest shot on the course.  Would much rather sacrifice 20-30 yards to be in that fairway.

[Bruceski]

Frank,

Indeed, I was there as a spectator watching you guys play the LI Public Links Championship. BTW, on the second day, what was the carry distance off the tee over the large bunker on 12? And, is a 3 wood enough to reach the fairway on number 9?

[Frank Pasquale]

Bruceski,
I don't remember exactly, but when the tee is back on 12, I can't even consider trying to carry the bunker, and I carry the ball about 240.  For me, that is the toughest tee shot on the course because that little neck of fairway on the right of the bunker is so tight.  For a "non big hitter" like me, the play might be a 3wood or 2 iron short of the bunker, where the landing area is wider, then a 3 wood to about 30-40 yds short of the green.  Unorthodox, but at least giving a chance to get up and down for par.

As far as 9, you bring up a good point.  But, a player who can hit his 3 wood 270+ should use the 3 wood, as it will allow him to work the ball right to left a little easier, and  he can get on the top shelf.  By the way, that shelf is brilliantly designed, as it repels anything less then a perfect tee shot.  9 is also one of the most demanding tee shots on the course.

[bethpageblack75]

Loren Robets interview after playing Black:

You played Bethpage in early October. Why did you decide to play there when you did?
Roberts: I was doing an outing out there and it was also a chance to get out. I had never been there and never heard about it until a few years ago when the possibility of the U.S. Open was going to go there.

What were your initial thoughts of playing the Black Course?
Roberts: I thought it was a fabulous golf course. Obviously it's still in the preparation stages. The greens weren't up to speed yet. And it was a little bit late in the year for up there, too.

From tee to green, I can't think of a better golf course that I have played for U.S. Opens. It's really just a spectacular visual golf course.

In terms of comparisons, and it may be hard to make one considering the Black Course is still undergoing changes, how does it stand up to other past U.S. Open courses?
Roberts: It's somewhat like Winged Foot. But I think a little bit more visually intimidating than Winged Foot. You have some forced carries with some real unkempt areas off the tees, stuff like that. I thought the bunkering was very dramatic.

How did you shoot?
Roberts: I ended up shooting 3 over par. It was a cold, rainy, windy, and raw kind of a day. I remember birdieing the first four holes out of the gate. I gradually frittered it away on those 485-yard par 4s. What's going on with those?
There is one hole that was 505 yards. I had to play to the right. I couldn't even get it over the bunker, so I couldn't reach it in two.

Did you play from the championship or regular tees?
Roberts: I played back [on the championship tees]. There was only one that I didn't go all the way back on. It was the 10th hole, and going back across the road, I know I couldn't have gotten there. I was playing into the wind. But the 12th hole -- the par 4 dogleg left over the bunker -- it's like a 265- 270-yard carry to get over the bunker, and that was almost. It was 290-something just to get to the grass from the mowed part of the fairway.


What kind of adjustments will you make when you're actually playing the Open?
Roberts: Well, it's not going to be that cold and windy in June. Length is not the only way you can toughen a golf course. Obviously I'm not a long hitter, but when you go strictly on length I think it just cuts your field down to about 10 percent of the field who have a chance.
But there are other parts of Bethpage that really makes one think, such as the bunker and hole locations. Then you have the greens to worry about.

Roberts: The greens, with the exception of No. 8; the eighth green has some slope to it, and the 16th hole -- outside of that the greens are relatively flat. That was my initial impression.

Does the course favor any one type of player?
Roberts: I think basically to me this course is mainly more along the ball-striking realm instead of slick, undulating surfaces where putting might be more of a factor. I think this is more of a driving and ball-striking type of golf course.

For someone who isn't a long ball-striker, like yourself, how do you prepare for Bethpage other than actually playing it?
Roberts (laughter): Hopefully the course will be playing hard and fast. That's my thing. Then you have a 517-yard par 5, which will be playable for everybody if it's playing fast. One thing I did notice about this golf course was that a lot of holes aren't really run-up type along par 4s. You're going to have to fly the ball along the surface and stop it. It's not a run-up type like, say, Pebble Beach was [two years ago] where you still pretty much had options to bounce the ball in there or run the ball in there. And this golf course is not that way.

It's a fabulous golf course but it will take more of an aerial game there.

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