Old Mac 10th in Golf Magazine Top 100 you can play

[Phil McDade]

I may be beating a dead horse, but the most astonishing thing to me about the list is the omission of the Ross course at French Lick.  I think it belongs in the top 10.  Does anyone who has played it agree that it does not belong in the Top 100 at all?

More generally, other than a few famous names, there are hardly any classic courses on the list at all.  There are four courses from before 1950 in the top 15 (Pebble Beach, Bethpage, Pinehurst No. 2, and Pasa) and another two from before 1980 (Spyglass and Harbour Town).  After that, there are a total of eight more pre-1950 courses in the next 85 (Cascades, Sea Island, Taconic, Dunes, Pine Needles, Greenbrier, Linville, and Broadmoor) and a total of seven more pre-1980 (Golden Horseshoe, Innisbrook, and Doral, plus four that have been substantially renovated in the past two years, Cog Hill, Mauna Kea, Torrey Pines, and Bay Hill).  Over 80% of the courses ranked from 16 through 100 were built in the last 30 years.

Jay:

A bigger joke is Lawsonia -- circa 1930 -- not making a top-100 list of publics.

[Andy Troeger]

Jay,
Good point about the Ross Course at French Lick. I wouldn't put it in the top ten, but it would beat out about half of the courses on the list that I have seen, including some big money courses on the listing, including Trump National LA, Troon North Pinnacle, Boulders South, and even the new kid on its own block with the Dye Course at French Lick making the list. The renovation at the Ross a few years ago really made a difference from what I remembered from back in the mid-1990's.

[Bill Brightly]

Does it really matter what order they are in - aren't they all top 10 courses which is some very special company.  I really think that Bandon Dunes gets overlooked too often and if it hadn't been so good the rest of the courses might never had been built. Pac Dunes has great strategy and great scenery which makes it nearly impossible to surpass while Old Mac is probably the most fun of any course you can play.  

I would like to note that a neighbor of mine who is an 18 handicap just came back from Bandon and he played all 4 courses with his wife.  He had played BD and PD before and did not plan on playing Bandon Trails.  He really like Old Mac but his caddie suggested that he play Bandon Trails as many of the caddies think it is the best course on the property so he did; he and his wife absolutely loved it.  My point is that there are 4 great courses and while some "purists" snub BT, it is by no means viewed as a lesser course by what I believe is the typical golfer.

I think you're right on all counts.  BT suffers because of the magnificence of the eye candy on the other courses.  Some people pan it because of a couple questionable holes (14, 16 and 18 get a fair amount of criticism), but I think that people are overly seduced by the many magnificent ocean views on the first two courses.  That being said, there's no doubt that BT is a terrific golf course and it is clearly the most difficult of the four golf courses.

Terry, It is really wrong to say that Pac Dunes and Bandon Dunes have eye candy. What they have is some of the absolute best golfing turf ever built upon in the US. That's not "eye candy" that is a GREAT golf site.

I do not take points off BT because it is a lesser site. I think it is a wonderful course.  (And no way it is harder than Pac Dunes when the wind is blowing...it is FAR easier, IMO.) Just dont try to move it up because PD and BD have the Pacific Ocean... They do, and that matters!!!

[Bill Brightly]

As a follow up, it seems almost unfair to try to compare Bandon Trails with other public courses right on the water. I think a more interesting discussion would be to put it in it's proper weight class and compare it to Pinehurst #2, Bethpage Black, Spyglass, TPC Stadium, Harbour Town, and Old Macdonald. BT will do VERY well in that grouping !

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I am puzzled that a course not open for 2 months can get enough rater play to be ranked so high. I believe it will get ther eor higher with a year or 2 play. Yes I am sick to have missed the May trips due to illness but will get there next year.

[Jim Colton]

A new feature this year, they have rankings by state. I'm sure it's worth a few laughs (for example, Stonewall Orchard 9th in Illinois ahead of courses like Pine Meadow and Cantigny.)

http://www.golf.com/golf/courses_travel/article/0,28136,2007633,00.html

Does anybody know how the golf magazine public ratings work?  Is it the same format at the U.S./World ratings - a select panel with an overall ranking with no set criteria?  How many panelists are there?  I'm assuming it's broader than the exclusive world panel.

Jim

[PCCraig]

I may be beating a dead horse, but the most astonishing thing to me about the list is the omission of the Ross course at French Lick.  I think it belongs in the top 10.  Does anyone who has played it agree that it does not belong in the Top 100 at all?

More generally, other than a few famous names, there are hardly any classic courses on the list at all.  There are four courses from before 1950 in the top 15 (Pebble Beach, Bethpage, Pinehurst No. 2, and Pasa) and another two from before 1980 (Spyglass and Harbour Town).  After that, there are a total of eight more pre-1950 courses in the next 85 (Cascades, Sea Island, Taconic, Dunes, Pine Needles, Greenbrier, Linville, and Broadmoor) and a total of seven more pre-1980 (Golden Horseshoe, Innisbrook, and Doral, plus four that have been substantially renovated in the past two years, Cog Hill, Mauna Kea, Torrey Pines, and Bay Hill).  Over 80% of the courses ranked from 16 through 100 were built in the last 30 years.

Jay:

A bigger joke is Lawsonia -- circa 1930 -- not making a top-100 list of publics.

I agree that the Ross Course at French Lick, and even more so Lawsonia, should be on the list without a doubt. I'm assuming both those course's main issue is that they are somewhat hard to get to, and in Lawsonia's case many of the big-profile Golf Mag raters probably don't make the 45 min trip west after seeing the Kohler Courses.

[PCCraig]

A new feature this year, they have rankings by state. I'm sure it's worth a few laughs (for example, Stonewall Orchard 9th in Illinois ahead of courses like Pine Meadow and Cantigny.)

http://www.golf.com/golf/courses_travel/article/0,28136,2007633,00.html

Does anybody know how the golf magazine public ratings work?  Is it the same format at the U.S./World ratings - a select panel with an overall ranking with no set criteria?  How many panelists are there?  I'm assuming it's broader than the exclusive world panel.

Jim

Orchard Valley #6 in IL??? No chance...

Lawsonia Links is #5 in the State of Wisconsin...but is the Woodlands really the 13th best course in the state? No Brown Deer in the top 15?

[Jay Cox]

Jay:

A bigger joke is Lawsonia -- circa 1930 -- not making a top-100 list of publics.

Great call, Phil.

The other thing that amazes me is that courses like Taconic are ranked where they are given the general under-ranking of classic courses.  Don't get me wrong, I like Taconic a lot and think it deserves its rating (in the 40s), but in an apples-to-apples comparison with courses like French Lick and Lawsonia I don't think it fares too well.  The same might go for places like Linville and Broadmoor, though I haven't played either.

Leatherstocking is another omission that bothers me, though not nearly as much as French Lick and Lawsonia.

[JC Jones]

A couple things I like about the list:

1)  Arcadia Bluffs is #30.  Seems more appropriate than being top 50 overall in Golf Digest's rankings
2)  Tullymore is #76.  Seems more appropriate than being top 100 overall in Golf Digest's rankings

[Brett_Morrissy]

Late entry to the post:

IMO Old Mac should be in the Top 5 - at least - I think it is perhaps the most stimulating course I had seen.

And will assume that it will certainly move up the list - give me OM over Pebble for a repeat play anyday.

G'day to all the boys from the Yucca

[Mark Arata]

There are not 92 better public access courses than Rustic Canyon....

Old Mac is that good btw...and judging from the number of Golfweek/GD people up there on opening day, I have no doubt they had enough raters to get their numbers......I am also surprised it didnt come in the top 5, to me, it is better than Bandon Dunes, and is pretty darn close to Pac Dunes.

I still think Bandon Dunes is the 4th best course at the resort......by a good bit too.

[Matt_Ward]

Don't have much time to add now -- but no Black Mesa in the top 100.

What a joke ... given that Paa-Ko Ridge is within the top 50.

Too many of the places listed are non-descript bombs away boring layouts that have either done a great PR job or merely are resting on their reputations.

[Steve Kline]

Trump National LA is in the top 100 public courses?!? Public golf courses must really suck then. I played there one time and can't imagine going back for any reason. It's claustrophobic (without any trees), nothing is memorable, and it has the worst man-made waterfalls I've ever seen.

[Jay Cox]

Don't have much time to add now -- but no Black Mesa in the top 100.

What a joke ... given that Paa-Ko Ridge is within the top 50.

Too many of the places listed are non-descript bombs away boring layouts that have either done a great PR job or merely are resting on their reputations.

Matt, Black Mesa is ranked No. 40 -- though I still agree with your broader point.

[Tom_Doak]

Having the course rated so high so quickly is flattering.  But, the real test is to see whether it will be higher or lower two years hence.

I suspect that at least a few of the raters judged the course on having played the first ten holes and not the full 18, feeling that it deserved to be included somewhere, but unsure as to how high on the list.

[Tim Leahy]

Cordevalle and Indian Wells on the Cal state list confirms this list is a joke.

[Matt_Ward]

Jay:

Thanks for the correction -- I only looked at the listing quickly before boarding a flight today.

The overall listing is just a hodge podge of the overly expensive layouts that are clearly one-dimensional designs.

Does anyone really do the research or do they simply crunch the numbers from people who are too scattered to really provide a listing of something worthwhile.

Gents:

In regards to new courses -- a waiting period of no less than two years would be a good thing to avoid the quick impulses that too many people provide.

[Richard Choi]

There are not 92 better public access courses than Rustic Canyon....

There are two in WA that I believe are superior in my opinion, Wine Valley and Gold Mountain Olympic Course, and they didn't even sniff the listing.

[Phil McDade]

Gents:

In regards to new courses -- a waiting period of no less than two years would be a good thing to avoid the quick impulses that too many people provide.

I've never quite understood this logic. Sure, there are some things in life -- golf courses among them -- that it may take awhile to realize their greatness. But some things -- the Pretenders 1st album, for instance -- are instantly recognizable as great. Why not a golf course?

[Bill Brightly]

Phil, I agree. I instantly felt that Old Macdonald was a great course, a world class course. But I am an unabashed CBM fan and I played the course with a bunch of GCA geeks who were bouncing off the walls. I will be fascinated to hear what the reaction is from the "average" golfer two years down the road. My bet is that they will love it, that Macdonald's principles are so sound and so much fun to play, the golfers will immediately feel the same way.

[Tom_Doak]

Gents:

In regards to new courses -- a waiting period of no less than two years would be a good thing to avoid the quick impulses that too many people provide.

I've never quite understood this logic. Sure, there are some things in life -- golf courses among them -- that it may take awhile to realize their greatness. But some things -- the Pretenders 1st album, for instance -- are instantly recognizable as great. Why not a golf course?

Phil:

I agree in general ... in fact, there's a whole thread going on right now about "love at first sight" golf courses.

At the same time, could you judge where The Pretenders fit in with other great musical groups, based on your first listen to that one album?  It's one thing to say they belong, but another to say WHERE they belong, exactly.  So I agree with you, and with Matt.  But I'm glad they are doing the rankings asap, anyway. 

[Adam Clayman]

Wild Horse?

[Jim Nugent]

I will be fascinated to hear what the reaction is from the "average" golfer two years down the road.

Me, too.  I'd also like to know the average guy's reaction now, two months after opening.  Have they taken to it as much as the GCA freaks have?  i.e. how popular has OM been to Bandon's overall clientele? 

[Matt_Ward]

The title of the article "top 100 you can play" is a misnomer because too many people cannot access courses where the green fees start hitting $200 and above.

A real good service would be for a listing below that number.

I also looked at the state ratings and it perplexes me on so many confusing situations. Neshanic Valley in Jersey is a good public facility - it's not #2. Ballyowen has been pushed a bit too far down in my mind.

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