Bent vs new Bermudas for Southern Greens

[John Shimp]

Is this the year (cool wet winter followed by scorching summer) many clubs in the southern US given up their bent grass green fixations and go with a new hybrid bermuda stain?

-- Many courses in bent grass dominated NC have lost them or nearly have this summer.  Not just poorly maintained courses either.  Some that are equipped with top rate budgets, sups, and subair have really struggled with the heat. 

Should more courses switch too Champions or mini verdae?  Are they tested enough? Are they better in many souther climes struggling with bent? (lower aeration needed, take traffic better, cant take severe cold well though)

Should Pinehurst #2 go this route (they won't most likely) given the high profile C&C work there?  Their greens were awful for the US Am last summer and are really bad now and covered with Poa.

[Don_Mahaffey]

John,
In most cases I believe the new (they're really not all that new anymore) ultradwarf bermuda grasses should get serious consideration. I think with the top clubs its still a status thing to have bent, but well maintained champion or mini verde makes for an outstanding putting surface...and, IMO, doesn't require the expense of a USGA green to survive.

[rjsimper]

I don't know much about agronomy, but I DO know that the courses in and around Raleigh/Durham are having a heck of a time this year. Most of this is based on what I have heard, not what I have actually played on, but I have heard of at least 4-5 courses, all pretty good ones (Mill Creek, Governors, Hope Valley, Croasdaile, Chapel Hill) that have either lost some/all greens or closed in order to prevent such a fate.

Even this summer aside, seems like anything public has to keep the grass on the greens too long for most of our tastes in the summer out of fear. Can't speak for the privates on that one, but the publics have always had a "sweet spot" of temperatures that allowed the greens to be good...and July-September was not that sweet spot.

[ChipRoyce]

Ryan;
Over at prestonwood, we're keeping our greens alive and prob. more fortunate than others.
However, our new greens on the Meadows course are spotty in a few areas due to the heat (most concerning).

A question for any of the agronomists out there - Once you start getting bare patches on Bent greens, what's the method to repair? Will overseeding help or do you need to sod the affected areas?

[ChipRoyce]

Just found the following article...

http://www.thepilot.com/news/2010/aug/01/when-it-comes-heat-courses-fighting-nature/

[John Shimp]

Don,
I was speaking to our Pro and he sounded as if mini verde was still somewhat unproven?  I didn't pick up on the basis, etc. 

Palmetto is SC has done very well with its mini verde since Gil Hanse's work but has had somewhat of a learning curve.  I played there a couple wks ago before the Palmetto Am and was blown away with how good the greens were.  Our bent in Charlotte is under the care of a top notch green keeper who is prepping the club for an important tournament.  By all accts the greens are great for bent but still show stress.

Being fortunate enough to play on both surfaces pretty much year round.  I prefer the bermuda.  Another pretty major hassle with bent is just how fragile it is to walking, spike wearing, divot fixing, etc.  I don't think the difference in putting on it at its best justifies the hassle of extra aeration, etc.

Others?

[Don_Mahaffey]

Don,
I was speaking to our Pro and he sounded as if mini verde was still somewhat unproven?  I didn't pick up on the basis, etc. 

Do you get swing tips from your super?

Both Mini Verde and Champion are proven grasses. The only thing that was ever unproven was the best way to manage them, but now that the use of ultradwarfs is so common the methods for maintaining these grasses has been refined and well documented.

[Randy Thompson]

It seems the gap has been narrowed in the difference in the putting qualities between the Bermudaīs with the bents with the arrival of the ultra dwarfs. I suspect there will be a gradual increase in the ultra dwarfs and clubs giving up on bent. I also feel this will be fueled by the economics benefits and the fact that the bermudas should also use less chemicals. Bentgrass clubs in the transition areas or in the south suffer for a two month period in the heart of summer and putting quality drops but so does Bermuda greens during the overseeding process and again in the transition period when the winter grass starts dying out and the Bermuda wakes up. So there is no clear winner and the debate will continue for years to come!

[Tim Nugent]

Ryan;
Over at prestonwood, we're keeping our greens alive and prob. more fortunate than others.
However, our new greens on the Meadows course are spotty in a few areas due to the heat (most concerning).

A question for any of the agronomists out there - Once you start getting bare patches on Bent greens, what's the method to repair? Will overseeding help or do you need to sod the affected areas?

Not claiming to be an agronomist but I would bite the bullet and use sod.  Hopefully you have an on-site nursery.  Cut deep squares with a spade to get as much roots as possible - don't use a sod cutter.
If an area is thinning but still has a good percentage of grass, use a round soil probe to take plugs and lots of roots and make holes with the same probe.  Bigger areas can be gotten with a Cup-cutter. 
I've just found that seed 1) takes too long, 2) doesn't like to grow in the same conditions that kill mature plants, 3) requires too much TLC for too long and 4) doesn't standup to routine maintenace and play.
So, if you try the seed route -you MAY have some grass in 6 8 weeks but if you sod, you WILL have grass  (and a job) tomorrow.

Put me in the ultra-dwaf camp.

[Bruce Hospes]

With bent grass, you deal with the summer issues, with the ultra dwarfs, you run the chance of having winter damage, so they both have good and bad points.  From what I've seen, the ultra dwarfs are a very good choice for a lot of courses in the transition zone that struggle with bent from time to time.  I think you will see a trend to bermuda in a lot of areas especially with the ability to not overseed the ultra dwarfs and still have a good surface during the fall and winter.  Most courses now paint them if they are in need of a little color.

Bruce

[BCrosby]

A great data share thread. Very interesting and helpful.

To contribute my two cents, I have played the new ultra dwarfs at East Lake and at Atlanta Athletic in both the summer and winter. In both seasons they played firm, fast and with minimal grain. They don't show ballmarks (unlike bents in this area) and roll incredibly smoothly year round, dormant or otherwise.

I hear good things about the A-1/A-4 bents at Atlanta Country Club, so some of the newer bent types seem to be holding up. But I also hear that a lot tender loving care is required to keep them where they are. Perhaps others can fill us in on that.

Bob

[JMEvensky]

In Memphis,we went from common bermuda to Penncross bent in 1991.We did it because everyone else in town did.We re-grassed with Champion 4 years ago.

For us,the argument came down to having the best greens possible when most of the golf is played--the summer.

In the deep south,bent grass requires a financial commitment that a lot of clubs won't/can't make.As of last week,there's only one club in town with bent still remaining--and they're thinking about Champion.

[Tim Gavrich]

I am in the Outer Banks until Friday morning and I will be playing rounds at Currituck Club and Kilmarlic GC, which both have bentgrass greens.  I just drove up to Currituck a little while ago and while the putting green looked very good, I saw a lot of dead patches of grass on the green that I walked out onto--either the 9th or 18th.  I would imagine that the people paying $160 to play the golf course at this time of year might be a bit annoyed with such conditions on the greens.  I will report a little more completely once I've played.

What is the golf course the furthest north that has Bermudagrass greens?  It seems like a no-brainer to have something like Champion Bermuda on greens of golf courses into the deeper South.  Just because ANGC has perfect bentgrass greens doesn't mean it's feasible or sensible for even a quite high-end private club, much less a public or resort course.

Also, for seaside courses, is this paspalum grass viable on the greens?  If so, what is it like?

[BCrosby]

Tim -

The bent at ANGC is so good because the course is closed during the summer. 

Bob

[Tim Gavrich]

Tim -

The bent at ANGC is so good because the course is closed during the summer. 

Bob

Indeed.  I fear that some of the hot-weather clubs that use bentgrass but perhaps ought to be using bermuda on their greens don't realize the critical nature of this policy as regards the quality of the greens (and the higher-than normal maintenance budget, and the sub-air systems under the greens, etc. etc.)!

I wonder; has there ever been a major comparison between the players who win PGA Tour events on bermuda greens vs. non-bermuda greens?  Are the bermuda winners from areas of the country where bermuda greens are prevalent?  I'm a Connecticut yankee but I've had decent putting success on bermuda greens.  The Champions (I think; Brent Hutto, correct me if I'm wrong!) bermuda greens at Columbia (SC) CC were fantastic when I played in a US Am qualifier there last summer.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I just returned from North Carolina and played three nicely budgeted golf courses.
Two with bent and one with miniverde.
One of the bents was very very wet, after a shower but also maintenance wise...the other bent of the nonA type much better, but the best to play on was the bermuda..firm and fast.
I just dont understand this so called fascination with "better" putting surfaces been the bent??
What is the point of having this "better" surface when you have to keep it so damn wet and soft all summer to keep it alive?
Massive craters of ball marks, no chnace to play anything but the aerial game...too limiting for my liking.
It is a no brainer..go with the hybrid bermudas

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I cannot imagine anyone in the deep south having or trying to maintain bent anymore. The burmuda strains make great putting surfaces when maintained with current practices for these grasses. Infact when dormant in they may be as good as any surface as their is.

[Carl Rogers]

Me thinks that there are always trade offs??

The Bermuda is probably less thirsty (yes, I know it is a lot more hardy) particularly in 95 degree plus heat ... correct?

If year round golf is required, then is there a surface that is more condusive to overseeding?  

I have a feeling bermuda goes dormant pretty far south  ... right?

Please straighten me out.

[Jerry Kluger]

I believe that Anthony Nysse said that Colonial had bent grass greens and spent more than $100K on electricity for the fans that are constantly in use to keep the greens cool.

[Kenny Baer]

A great data share thread. Very interesting and helpful.

To contribute my two cents, I have played the new ultra dwarfs at East Lake and at Atlanta Athletic in both the summer and winter. In both seasons they played firm, fast and with minimal grain. They don't show ballmarks (unlike bents in this area) and roll incredibly
Bob

Bob, Our greens are holding up great and are as good as could possibly be expected but they still don't hold a candle to the new bermuda; in the summer you just can not get bent to play firm and fast; if you did it would be your last day on the job bcause the next day they would be gonners.

[Anthony_Nysse]

I believe that Anthony Nysse said that Colonial had bent grass greens and spent more than $100K on electricity for the fans that are constantly in use to keep the greens cool.

Jerry,
  Youre in the ballpark.
 The 2011 PGA Championship at Atlanta Athletic Club will be the first major to be played on bermudagrass since the 1987 PGA here in West Palm. It will be the first on an ultradwaft. It will be interesting to hear the players thoughts.
  To my knowledge, Red Stick GC in Vero Beach is the last course in FL with bentgrass. They are closed from May to October.

[BCrosby]

"...in the summer you just can not get bent to play firm and fast; if you did it would be your last day on the job bcause the next day they would be gonners"

Kenny -

We lost our bent greens about 10 years ago when we did just that for the state am. It was a disaster. Took us a couple of years to recover. Never again.

Bob

[Randy Thompson]

Everybody on this site when talking about maintnenace or different grasses seems to look for black and white answers and there just arenīt any!! There are NO COOK BOOK RECIPIES to follow so why try to invent one!!! Colonial has trouble every summer, temporaries, fan, dollars and more dollars thown at trying to keep them alive and make throguh the Texas summers. Ten miles from there at Squaw Creek golf course they maintains good bent greens year around at least at half the price. Its not the super or the variety of the grass. Its the fact that Colonial is set down low in a river bed and has huge trees and squaw creek has a setting more adapted for the bent. The fans help but it not like natural air movement, kind of like well water is good but no comparrison to a mother nature soft rain. Question for Anthony forner assistant to Colonial, lets play pretend, you are interviewing for super position at Colonial, they just came off a summer and lost seven greens and are considering switching to mini verde and want your opinion, what do you answer? I know I would answers with lots of questions, Whats your priorotiy, good greens for the tournament or good greens for the summer! You can not guarantee great greens year around in that club period, in my opinion! I have seen to many brutal winters where they spend two months buying up every piece of live bermuda sod in the metro plex from winter kill and that is on higher cut bermudas that should have more resistents. Not over seeding and painting would not be a viable option either with the traffic and the tournament in May. If you were smart you would say, tell me what is more important for the club and we will respect that decision and do everything possible to give you the best greens year around but there are no guarentees with either, no matter how much resources you provide me with! Do you agree, Tony??

[BCrosby]

The Bermuda is probably less thirsty (yes, I know it is a lot more hardy) particularly in 95 degree plus heat ... correct?

If year round golf is required, then is there a surface that is more condusive to overseeding?  

I have a feeling bermuda goes dormant pretty far south  ... right?

Carl, I'm not a super but my layman's understanding is that (1) Bermudas are less thirsty. (2) You can overseed if you wish, though it impedes the transition back to non-dormant grass in the spring. We are not overseeding our greens but will paint them for winter play. The painted greens at East Lake and Atlanta Athletic looked great, btw. (3) Bermuda goes dormant as far south as ATL. (4) We will tarp our greens in the winter when temps dip below 30 degrees or so to minimize the risk of winterkill.

Bob

[Mike_Young]

My two cents

There is really no reason to have bent grass in the south any longer...BUT we still have many clubs where EGOs rule and often they do not take the time to educate themselves but instead wish to maintain bragging rights with the buddies at other clubs.....especially in a college town like where I live and you still have 45-60 year frat boys running things...
Anyway....there is no argument that GOOD bent is hard to beat.....but there are not many months of GOOD bent in the south...and during the best bermuda growing season the supt cannot GROW bent, he just tries to MAINTAIN bent....and the properly maintained ultradwarf is 98% of what the best bent is....and in the winter when you must paint the ultradwarfs;we have much less play....
The decision makers often will tell you  the ultradwarf greens are hard and will not hold which in most cases is the by product of new greens as much as anything and they will tell you that winterkill can destroy them...BUT reality is that all of this is really bullet points for justifying the bentgrass they see at ANGC etc....
I say that bent is almost a thing of the past in the south...with this economy, course closings and this weather it will  do nothing but hasten the day when bermuda will rule...
ALSO,  while many courses in ATL area have closed for heat reasons etc...one of the supts that bought his own place is in the bahamas on vacation while his course is full...oh...he has champions ultradwarf