Bent vs new Bermudas for Southern Greens

[Randy Thompson]

My two cents

There is really no reason to have bent grass in the south any longer..

Mike
You can not generalize like that or you shouldn´t, North Texas for example has a much harder winter than Gerogia and exsist winter kill on Bermuda greens, its not a myth. Having a PGA tour event in late spring like Colonial and Byron Nelson and using bent ensures the likely hood of higher quality greens for the event in comparrison to Ultra dwarfs. In West Texas the summer produce a drier heat and the nights cool down more than DFW. The area is characterized with wind and there are like three trees from Amarillo to Abilene! So you can actually grow bentgrass during the summer and not just maintain. The winters can be really nasty in that area of W Texas and so I would take bent any day over bermuda in that area and the bent can be maintained for cost comparably to the Bermuda´s becasue you are growing a grass suitable for the climate and conditions. I agree the conditions found in most parts throughout Georgia and Florida, the scale tips heavily in favor of the the new Bermudas. More so in Florida becasue of lack of elevation. But in your home state I beleive there are some mountains and I am sure the bent would do find in the higher elevations.

[Mike_Young]

My two cents

There is really no reason to have bent grass in the south any longer..

Mike
You can not generalize like that or you shouldn´t, North Texas for example has a much harder winter than Gerogia and exsist winter kill on Bermuda greens, its not a myth. Having a PGA tour event in late spring like Colonial and Byron Nelson and using bent ensures the likely hood of higher quality greens for the event in comparrison to Ultra dwarfs. In West Texas the summer produce a drier heat and the nights cool down more than DFW. The area is characterized with wind and there are like three trees from Amarillo to Abilene! So you can actually grow bentgrass during the summer and not just maintain. The winters can be really nasty in that area of W Texas and so I would take bent any day over bermuda in that area and the bent can be maintained for cost comparably to the Bermuda´s becasue you are growing a grass suitable for the climate and conditions. I agree the conditions found in most parts throughout Georgia and Florida, the scale tips heavily in favor of the the new Bermudas. More so in Florida becasue of lack of elevation. But in your home state I beleive there are some mountains and I am sure the bent would do find in the higher elevations.

Randy,
When I say SOUTH..I'm talking DIXIE   not Texas....but I understand and you are correct....above 2500 ft elevation in Dixie and you are good with bent...cheers

[Randy Thompson]

My two cents

There is really no reason to have bent grass in the south any longer..

Mike
You can not generalize like that or you shouldn´t, North Texas for example has a much harder winter than Gerogia and exsist winter kill on Bermuda greens, its not a myth. Having a PGA tour event in late spring like Colonial and Byron Nelson and using bent ensures the likely hood of higher quality greens for the event in comparrison to Ultra dwarfs. In West Texas the summer produce a drier heat and the nights cool down more than DFW. The area is characterized with wind and there are like three trees from Amarillo to Abilene! So you can actually grow bentgrass during the summer and not just maintain. The winters can be really nasty in that area of W Texas and so I would take bent any day over bermuda in that area and the bent can be maintained for cost comparably to the Bermuda´s becasue you are growing a grass suitable for the climate and conditions. I agree the conditions found in most parts throughout Georgia and Florida, the scale tips heavily in favor of the the new Bermudas. More so in Florida becasue of lack of elevation. But in your home state I beleive there are some mountains and I am sure the bent would do find in the higher elevations.

Randy,
When I say SOUTH..I'm talking DIXIE   not Texas....but I understand and you are correct....above 2500 ft elevation in Dixie and you are good with bent...cheers

Mike,
You got me there, I am guilty of generalizing also, I thought if you ate chicken fried steak or catfish you were in the south!

[mike_beene]

it is over one hundred degrees f in Dallas most of August. golf and other outdoor activities are avoided.Give me good bent for the  ten good months when golf is fun here.Plus,if you do play those fans will save you from heat stroke.

[Jason Topp]

My impression has been that bent greens in warm climates tend to be maintained soupy wet rather than firm.  The graininess in new bermuda greens has been reduced to such a great extent that I would think the firmness would outweigh any advantages of slightly smoother surfaces.

Then again - I miss the very grainy versions.  They require skills that I respect but have never mastered.

[Roger Wolfe]

A good friend of mine who is a superintendent says, when discussing bent vs Bermuda in the transition zone, Mason Dixon Line to the NC border...

"Do you want great greens 9 months out of the year or 3 months out of the year?"

Bentgrass:  A regular summer will allow you great greens for 10.5 months.  A brutal summer will also be OK with fans and sub air.
Bermuda:  Covers in the winter, dormancy, transition.  However, your super can go to the beach in August!

Tough decision but technology keeps advancing! 

[John Shimp]

Another reasonable argument from our pro that somewhat favors bent in his eyes was that the new ultradwarfs are too firm to accept approaches from less strong players. My view is that you get used to the run out and learn to play more running shots with the greater levels of firmness.  But people love to spin their shots into bent.  Of course some of the grainier bermudas grab like crazy into the grain and not at all with it. The 2 highlighted here (champion and mini verde) has that issue less so.

On painting the bermudas when its cool, Palmetto overseeded their mini verde with poa trivialis (sp?) last winter which worked nicely to provide a little color and "feel" on the greens.  They did not paint at all.  Covering the greens in extreme cold is needed.

To Tim Gavrich, I believe Columbia CC in SC still has Tif Eagle. Brent pls correct?  Tif Eagle is grainier and i think really tricky to putt but the surfaces at Columbia are incredibly healthy.  You just have to know them.  They do paint their greens in the winter.

[John Shimp]

Anybody wish to comment on what Pinehurst #2 should do with its greens?  I thinkthe plan is to not recountour/rebuild but they must deal with the poa annua at least?  Should they go to bermuda?  I realize this is unlikely just a hypothetical.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Another reasonable argument from our pro that somewhat favors bent in his eyes was that the new ultradwarfs are too firm to accept approaches from less strong players. My view is that you get used to the run out and learn to play more running shots with the greater levels of firmness.  But people love to spin their shots into bent.  Of course some of the grainier bermudas grab like crazy into the grain and not at all with it. The 2 highlighted here (champion and mini verde) has that issue less so.

John,
  TRUST ME, within a very short time, the bermudagrass greens will develop more thatch and become like a marshmellow on top when aggressive cultural practices are not in place. ANY green, bent of bermuda, that is under 2 years old is going to be VERY firm. It has nothing to do with grass type.
  I'm sure some of the courses that had bent and changed to bermuda think this because when the bent was torn out, it was soft, had not root system and a high thatch content. A brand new green takes a couple years to develop thatch, but rest assure, grass selection has nothing to do with firmness.

[Bruce Hospes]

Another reasonable argument from our pro that somewhat favors bent in his eyes was that the new ultradwarfs are too firm to accept approaches from less strong players. My view is that you get used to the run out and learn to play more running shots with the greater levels of firmness.  But people love to spin their shots into bent.  Of course some of the grainier bermudas grab like crazy into the grain and not at all with it. The 2 highlighted here (champion and mini verde) has that issue less so.

John,
  TRUST ME, within a very short time, the bermudagrass greens will develop more thatch and become like a marshmellow on top when aggressive cultural practices are not in place. ANY green, bent of bermuda, that is under 2 years old is going to be VERY firm. It has nothing to do with grass type.
  I'm sure some of the courses that had bent and changed to bermuda think this because when the bent was torn out, it was soft, had not root system and a high thatch content. A brand new green takes a couple years to develop thatch, but rest assure, grass selection has nothing to do with firmness.

I'm not sure I agree with that statement.  Bermuda is going to give you firmer greens overall as compared to bent.  Can you get bent greens firm?  Sure you can, but due to the growth characteristics of bermuda, it will tend to offer firmer greens overall.

[Randy Thompson]

Another reasonable argument from our pro that somewhat favors bent in his eyes was that the new ultradwarfs are too firm to accept approaches from less strong players. My view is that you get used to the run out and learn to play more running shots with the greater levels of firmness.  But people love to spin their shots into bent.  Of course some of the grainier bermudas grab like crazy into the grain and not at all with it. The 2 highlighted here (champion and mini verde) has that issue less so.

John,
  TRUST ME, within a very short time, the bermudagrass greens will develop more thatch and become like a marshmellow on top when aggressive cultural practices are not in place. ANY green, bent of bermuda, that is under 2 years old is going to be VERY firm. It has nothing to do with grass type.
  I'm sure some of the courses that had bent and changed to bermuda think this because when the bent was torn out, it was soft, had not root system and a high thatch content. A brand new green takes a couple years to develop thatch, but rest assure, grass selection has nothing to do with firmness.

I'm not sure I agree with that statement.  Bermuda is going to give you firmer greens overall as compared to bent.  Can you get bent greens firm?  Sure you can, but due to the growth characteristics of bermuda, it will tend to offer firmer greens overall.

You can dry them out a little more in the summer and thus produce a firmer surface. But growth characteristic really does not enter into the formula.

[Anthony_Nysse]

I'm not sure I agree with that statement.  Bermuda is going to give you firmer greens overall as compared to bent.  Can you get bent greens firm?  Sure you can, but due to the growth characteristics of bermuda, it will tend to offer firmer greens overall.

Due to growth characteristics? You mean, because bermuda grows so much, it is a thatch maker that we have to verticut, aerify, graden, topdress, unlike the bentgrasses? The firmest greens, excluding greens under 5 years, have been bentgrass/poa-Oakmont, Shinnecock, NGLA, Dallas Natl, Kinloch, Capital City Club, The Honors.
  Bermudagrass greens can get away from a course so quick unless you're allowed to aerify 3-4 times a year with big tines (+1/2) throughout the growing season. Day in a day out, bermudagrass is much more spongy if not allowed to maintain it.
  We have 9 acres of tifeagle here. We remove 35-40% a year and I think we're just keeping up. We aerify with 3/4" tines twice a year, 3/8" twice a year, graden once a year, verticut every 2 weeks from May-November, topdress every Monday November-April just to keep up. Our nitrogen is in the 3.5-4.5# range. We primo 2-5 ounces every 7-9 days. We are on a very strict, handwater only program. You dont have to go through all that mess on bentgrass.
  Its very hard to dry the greens out in the summer-it rains all the time.

[Randy Thompson]

A lot of comments about how soft bentgreens are generally and the majority of the particpants on this site seem to like more and more brownish tints playing fields to play fast and firm. Bent greens when managed properly can and should be firm. The problem is 90% of clubs over water the bent and don´t have the proper root sytem to water deep and infrequent. Many times in many areas the bent is not pure and is contaminated with Poa and thus requiring frequent syringes to maintain alive the shallow rooted poa. Then you enter into the formula that the superintendent profession, that is similar to the coaching profession, in job security. As a result there are a lot of supers managing bent that get to a, "better safe than sorry attitude" and overwater.

[Bruce Hospes]

I'm not sure I agree with that statement.  Bermuda is going to give you firmer greens overall as compared to bent.  Can you get bent greens firm?  Sure you can, but due to the growth characteristics of bermuda, it will tend to offer firmer greens overall.

Due to growth characteristics? You mean, because bermuda grows so much, it is a thatch maker that we have to verticut, aerify, graden, topdress, unlike the bentgrasses? The firmest greens, excluding greens under 5 years, have been bentgrass/poa-Oakmont, Shinnecock, NGLA, Dallas Natl, Kinloch, Capital City Club, The Honors.
  Bermudagrass greens can get away from a course so quick unless you're allowed to aerify 3-4 times a year with big tines (+1/2) throughout the growing season. Day in a day out, bermudagrass is much more spongy if not allowed to maintain it.
  We have 9 acres of tifeagle here. We remove 35-40% a year and I think we're just keeping up. We aerify with 3/4" tines twice a year, 3/8" twice a year, graden once a year, verticut every 2 weeks from May-November, topdress every Monday November-April just to keep up. Our nitrogen is in the 3.5-4.5# range. We primo 2-5 ounces every 7-9 days. We are on a very strict, handwater only program. You dont have to go through all that mess on bentgrass.

Let's see, we aerify at least twice a year, brush and or groom, spray primo every week, topdress bi weekly, spray fungicides weekly during the summer, hand water daily, keep fertility low, double cut, roll, etc,etc.  How much less are we doing on bent vs bermuda?
The courses you cite no doubt have fast and firm greens, but it has more to do with the way they are managed than the fact that they are bent, poa, bermuda or whatever.  I know several superintendents here in the southeast who have Champion or miniverde who get really firm greens and good speeds that don't go through all the effort that you and I do.  I still contend that due to the fact that bermuda is a stronger, more resiliant plant (here in the southeast) it will result in typically, firmer greens. 

[Tony Ristola]

It seems the gap has been narrowed in the difference in the putting qualities between the Bermuda´s with the bents with the arrival of the ultra dwarfs. I suspect there will be a gradual increase in the ultra dwarfs and clubs giving up on bent. I also feel this will be fueled by the economics benefits and the fact that the bermudas should also use less chemicals. Bentgrass clubs in the transition areas or in the south suffer for a two month period in the heart of summer and putting quality drops but so does Bermuda greens during the overseeding process and again in the transition period when the winter grass starts dying out and the Bermuda wakes up. So there is no clear winner and the debate will continue for years to come!

Just an observation.

The difference is people expect transition times with overseeding; the greens are better because the grass suits the season. With Bents you can lose entire greens during the summer and into the autumn. Is it worth going Bermuda and overseeding? It especially makes sense when the Bermuda's are so good.

.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

NW Texas is not the south much less deep south. Mike Young is absolutely right. Anthony pointed out the focussed maintenance to keep bermuda right. And dormant is a wonderful thing. Overseeding is nuts in deep south.It is only done by the only good green is one that is very green colored crowd. You get 2 or 4 green months and 2 bad grow in months with risk of lossing greens in the spring.

[Randy Thompson]

NW Texas is not the south much less deep south. Mike Young is absolutely right. Anthony pointed out the focussed maintenance to keep bermuda right. And dormant is a wonderful thing. Overseeding is nuts in deep south.It is only done by the only good green is one that is very green colored crowd. You get 2 or 4 green months and 2 bad grow in months with risk of lossing greens in the spring.

Who and when anyone mentioned anything about the deep south??? So north Texas is not the south? So is it north?? Is Atlanta the deep south and north Texas the north?? Where does your line run seperating north and south, south and deep south, just curious?? Clarify for me your last point are you stating overseeding increases the possibility of the bermuda base dying in the spring?

[Todd Bell]

 Are there any benefits to overseeding a golf course? 

[Anthony_Nysse]

Who and when anyone mentioned anything about the deep south??? So north Texas is not the south? So is it north?? Is Atlanta the deep south and north Texas the north?? Where does your line run seperating north and south, south and deep south, just curious?? Clarify for me your last point are you stating overseeding increases the possibility of the bermuda base dying in the spring?

Overseeding is a major reason that bermudagrass greens play softer. That is a 5-6 month period of the year where thatch continues to accumulate, organic matter continues to build and the cultural practices are VERY minumal because as to not disrupt the golfers. Excess fertilizers, definately excess water, but for 2-3 months (maybe longer dependingon weather) you're not verticutting, poa triv doesnt like to be topdressed, you're certainly not removing any organic matter and you're only adding to the soft surface. I have NEVER played on a overseeded surface that is firm.
 

[BCrosby]

Following up a comment from Tiger above, I am not seeing courses with ultra dwarfs in Atlanta over-seeded in the winter. East Lake didn't. Atlanta Athletic didn't. We don't plan to at Cherokee. Painted, dormant surfaces play beautifully in the cold months. The gist of the posts above seem to assume that over-seeding automatically comes with the u/d's. That's certainly not the case in Atlanta.

My main worry about u/d's was that, because they weren't growing in the winter, greens would show hundreds of ball marks in early spring before they greened back up. I was surprised to find, however, that the mat of the u/d's is so tight, there simply aren't that many ball marks. The greens looked and putted quite acceptablyl in late March and early April.

Bob