If you actually spent a week on the site of a golf architecture project.....

[George Pazin]

......what do you who have never done that before think or suspect you would learn about golf course architecture?

Mostly I think I'd learn how little I know, especially about construction.

Ben Sims, I'd be surprised if almost all of the architects on board wouldn't appreciate some volunteer work... I once suggested GCA Fantasy Camp, where you'd go spend a week or month with some architect building a course, so I suppose if you do it, you should send me some sort of royalty!

[Dan Herrmann]

I'd probably learn just how important the boring, mundane things really are to a course.  Things like drainage, irrigation, and the effect on certain species of trees on turfgrass.

Tom - you mention Kittleman's #17 at French Creek.  There's so much going on that hole that it actually plays with your mind.  It could have been a cookie-cutter 200 yard par 3, but what fun would that have been.  Where else do you see no greenside bunkers, but a "garage" of bunkers on the right side of the fairway?  Where else do you see a wave bunker that obscures the land between it and the green?  And where else do you see a tee canted 45% off axis?

The design of just that hole would have been amazing to see in person, and would have been very educational.

[TEPaul]

Dan:

That's true. Have you ever actually tried to get Bill Kittleman to describe in detail why it is the way it is? 

[Dan Herrmann]

Tom,
No, not Mr. Kittleman, but I do have Gil on video explaining the cross bunker.    It's an amazing story - he was trying to build a bunker that had the visual properties of a wave crashing on the beach.  He also put the higher part of the wave to the left (the safer side) which actually encourages shots to be played to the right and find the garage.

They succeeded.

This isn't the best angle to see the wave effect, but it does show the bunker well:

Photo courtesy of Joe Bausch

[TEPaul]

Dan:

Do you realize that the delightful Kate Kittleman (Bill's wife) once said she lost her favorite set of sterling silver tea spoons and she suspected Bill copped them from her to do some of the final finish detail work on bunker surrounds? What does that say about this mad genius?  

If you ever have tea at the Kittlemans you can know that the sterling silver tea spoon you are stirring your tea with once helped make a really cool bunker. How often can one say THAT?

To me it is vaguely reminiscent of that wonderful line in the Rupert Brooks poem about WW1 and the Englishmen who died and were buried abroad-----"a little plot of ground in a foreign field that will forever be---ENGLAND."

[DMoriarty]

TEPaul,

If you want less push-back from me about your obvious alcohol problem, then you need to leave me out of your booze fueled rants and swipes.  Better yet, try a different kind of 'on-site' visit, one that lasts 28 days or so.  Now that "would be doing an incredible service for this website."

[Jeff_Brauer]

TePaul,

According to legend, I haven't been on a site visit since I bought my CAD system......I am not sure what I would learn!

Seriously, when I have had newbs on site, I think the thing they learn is that the stuff we talk about here accounts for about 10% or less of what it takes to get a golf course built.

[Peter Pallotta]

TE - just to take this in a slightly different direction:

I imagine that what I'd learn/experience would have a lot to do with when/at what stage in the process I spent the week there.  I did construction work as my summer job for many years.  The initial stage (demolition) was always satisfying, and the end stage (the finishing work) was satisfying as welll; but that middle period, when the work site was a mess and I couldn't envision what the professionals-contractors were doing and in what order, and the whole project had yet to reach a tipping point and or to take shape, was a frustrating period.

I guess if I was hanging out with an architect at this stage, I'd mostly just marvel at how they could keep their eye on the prize, i.e. the finished golf course, in the midst of a complex orchestration of various tasks/duties and the turning of theoretical ideas into concrete reality.

Peter

[TEPaul]

"Seriously, when I have had newbs on site, I think the thing they learn is that the stuff we talk about here accounts for about 10% or less of what it takes to get a golf course built."


Jeffrey:

I would hope they would learn that. That's one of the reasons I created this thread!


PeterP:

To me the most educational aspect of being on site is at the beginning on the raw site when the architect is just beginning to route and just beginning to visualize holes. I think the routing process is the most important thing for most on here to actually see done on the land. I also think it is by far the most important aspect for anyone to really begin to understand what golf course architecture is fundamentally all about. Construction itself is of course important and interesting to watch but for me nothing quite like what comes before it.

[Steve Okula]

I would suggest that before anyone goes on  a construction site they spend at least six months doing day-to-day golf course maintenance as a prerequisite.

You can't do calculus until you've passed math.

[TEPaul]

I think what Steve Okula just said is also fundamentally important and I would note that some of the best golf course architects were also former greenkeepers (superintendants) like William Flynn was. Bill Coore was too. Pete Dye even said he was.

[TEPaul]

David Moriarty:

Your #30 is totally unnecessary and pretty much the last straw. If you want to say things like that to me or about me it would be far better for all to say them to me on an email or the IM so the rest of the people on this website don't have to see it and read it. All I said to you or about you on this thread is that Ben Sims should invite you to go out with him to visit a project site, and your responses were a couple of really obnoxious posts----eg #30 and #10. I suggest you do the right thing and delete them by the end of today or I have no compuction at all about sending them to Morrissett to get him to ask you to delete them or perhaps delete you as well. The ball is in your court----what are you going to do about it?

[Jason McNamara]

This is hilarious.  Tom starts a thread which he quickly turns into a continuation of his passive-aggressive campaign (assuming that was not in fact the impetus for the thread), calls out the usual suspects, then gets all offended when one of the targets returns fire.

[Bruce Katona]

1. No matter what, water flows down hill, unless pumped.
2. Refer to #1.
3. Blowing up things in person is even better than talking about it....unbelieveable!
4. Construction crews start early, so you need to be on site early or they may have taken a shortcut to get something done before you arrived that won't work.  Sometimes the shortcut is to get a task done, sometimes to save money, or both.
5. No matter how well you read plans and contour maps, seeing the roughly finished green or hole corridor gives a great sense of accomplishment.  Seeing the finished product (with plating and grassing compete) even more so.
6. You can never install enough drainage in fairways...there are always puddles that need to be fixed (unless your site is 100% sand).
7. Even with EZ-Go's or other vehicles, you walk an awful lot.  No real need to hit the gym.

[DMoriarty]

David Moriarty:

Your #30 is totally unnecessary and pretty much the last straw. If you want to say things like that to me or about me it would be far better for all to say them to me on an email or the IM so the rest of the people on this website don't have to see it and read it. All I said to you or about you on this thread is that Ben Sims should invite you to go out with him to visit a project site, and your responses were a couple of really obnoxious posts----eg #30 and #10. I suggest you do the right thing and delete them by the end of today or I have no compuction at all about sending them to Morrissett to get him to ask you to delete them or perhaps delete you as well. The ball is in your court----what are you going to do about it?

Do what you want.  I am not deleting a thing.  I didn't inject me into this thread, you did.   With yet another unprovoked pot shot at me and Tom.   You've done it over and over again, even when I haven't posted for months at a time.

So take it to Ran.  I'm sure he is well aware of your inability to control yourself, especially when you drink.  He can pretend he doesn't see the white elephant staggering around his discussion group, but I am through pretending.   

If Ran wants me to silently put up with your endless crap, then I'd rather he throw me off.   

[John Moore II]

Just like numerous other threads on here, this one's really going to excell..OH BOY, I CAN'T WAIT.   

[Ian Larson]

This is the funniest stuff I've ever read on here!

[Steve Lang]

 .. I would pitch a tent and watch it morning noon and night..

[TEPaul]

"Is there any chance you could prevail upon both MacWood and/or Moriarty to join you? If you could I believe you would be doing an incredible service for this website and DG."


David Moriarty:

Is that what you mean about me injecting you into this thread? Do you find something insulting about me suggesting that Ben Sims prevail upon you and MacWood to join him for a week or so on some architectural project site to learn what happens out there, and that that might be of service to this website? If so, why is that? I started this thread because I think it is a great learning experience for anyone really interested in golf architecture to do that, and do it as much as possible. I have and I just couldn't recommend it strongly enough to others interested in golf course architecture who may not have done it, including you and MacWood.

I have no idea if you've ever done it. If you have why don't you tell us about it and what you learned rather than saying what you did to me about wine or the dregs of wine or whatever? And if you haven't ever done it then why are you so insulted by the suggestion?

[Mac Plumart]

I know this is probably stupid to do, as I might be stepping right into the middle of this crazy fighting stuff...but oh well, I may not be the brightest bulb in the shed.  

But awhile ago, frankly I can't recall the exact thread or the exact time, David M. told me that it might be worth my while to visit a golf course in the middle of construction in order to further round out my education.  I haven't made the time or the connections in order to accomplish that goal yet.  I hope to, perhaps in a year or two I might be ready for that.  I think I have a few more things to get caught up to speed on first...grasses for one.

Regardless, I don't know if David is like me and hasn't made the time to do this yet, but he certainly has thought of it.  And for what it is worth, I think it would be amazingly educational.  


EDIT...here is that thread from November of last year.  Post 27.  Great stuff!  http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42039.0/

[TEPaul]

Mac:

Show me where on this website Moriarty suggested you should visit a golf architecture website and why it's so educational. Are you thinking of Moriarty making that suggestion or are you somehow getting him mixed up with me making that suggestion?

Frankly, I'm not aware that Moriarty ever has visited an architectural site project in the routing, design or construction phase. Maybe he has and maybe he hasn't. I have no idea at all. All I know is when I suggested to Ben Sims who seemed to want to do it that he invite Moriarty and MacWood to join him, Moriarty took great umbrage at that and accused me, for even mentioning it, of drinking too much wine or consulting some tea leaf effect in the dregs of a wine glass or some such other of his usual defensive, obviously highly insecure garbage on here.

[Mac Plumart]

Post 27 on that link I  posted.  The thread is called "Golf Courses to Learn from".

[Chris Cupit]

Post 27 on that link I  posted.  The thread is called "Golf Courses to Learn from".

Mac,

If you want to see a mini construction job being done (drainage, tee work, fairway shaping green and bunker construction) that is within about 15 minutes of your house, send me an IM

Chris Cupit

[TEPaul]

Mac:

Thanks so much for that "find" on Moriarty mentioning to you the benefits of visiting site projects. I don't remember seeing that one and I wasn't aware he made that suggestion to you.

I noticed from that thread from a year and a half ago you sent me to that he did mention that to you on Post #27 and then he mentioned apparently he did that in Post #29. But he never mentioned where or when or with what architect or project he did that.

I wonder why? Do you suppose he thinks that kind of thing should be classified information for some odd reason and if so what in the world reason could that be?

Too bad he didn't just mention what site project it was on the thread I just started in the last 24 hours suggesting that everyone should do this for a helluva education rather than just jumping into his usual insult MO when I mentioned to Ben Sims on that recent thread of mine that he should invite Moriarty and MacWood to join him.

[TEPaul]

There you go, Mac. Look at the post from Chris Cupit. Take him up on it by all means. You surely won't regret it. Spending project site time over the years on numerous projects with numerous archtiects is the best education on golf course architecture I've ever had and by a huge country mile.

That you may do that with Chris Cupit frankly makes this particular thread worthwhile to me. You will learn not just why architects do the things they do but why they sometimes have to do things they otherwise may not want to do.

There is no education on golf course architecture quite like project site time. I guarantee it.

And I would be most interested to learn what site and project Moriarty implied he visited and what he learned at it.

Do you think I have a right to actually question him on what it was or if he actually did it since he implied on that thread you mentioned that he did?