What's new?

[Forrest Richardson]

During the past 30 years (30 seemed a good distance back) who has contributed the "new" in golf architecture?  By "new" I am referring to anything well liked and fun and that is also not a rehash of the days gone by, reinterpretations or "bring backs" of things that have already been tried. Pete Dye comes to mind, as do a few others. What say the GCA-ers?

[Mac Plumart]

What the grass on Kiawah's greens?  Pasapalum?  Is that new?

Are the build it and they will come resorts/clubs new?  Bandon, Sand Hills for example...and now the Prairie Club and Ballyneal.  Or is that really discovering the sandhills area of Nebraska/Colorado.

8,000 yard courses are new.  At least that is how long I think Pete Dye's course in Indiana is.

Give me a few a few more minutes and I might get some more.

EDIT...greens stimped at 13+, that is new to the last 30 years isn't it.  Therefore, less slope on greens.

[Forrest Richardson]

Innovations in grass, I suppose, can be counted. I was thinking about design and strategy innovation. Whether it be hazards, new types of holes or themes — that was my thought.

[Bill_McBride]

I played a course down on the Sea of Cortez in Mexico a couple of years ago that had at least one hole that was WAY outside the box.

Interestingly enough, the fairway and green turf was all paspalum, a fine playing surface, firm and fast.



There are some fine links holes up in the dunes as well.  I wish this place was a bit closer to Phoenix or Tucson, not sure how the issues at the border are affecting the Links at Las Palomas.

[Jaeger Kovich]

With all the earth moving threads going around... The Knucklebucket.

[John Moore II]

Bill-That picture of the green at Las Palomas looks pretty cool to me, though I am sure many on here will think its terrible. I like weird things like that, the sort of things you can't find in too many places.

[Forrest Richardson]

John — terrible is such a terrible word. I have tried to accomplish some interesting and fun things. It's difficult, and certainly not for every client, site or membership.

Desmond comes to mind. He did a lot of neat things beyond the controversial, and had a lot of ideas...never any shortage of those.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill-That picture of the green at Las Palomas looks pretty cool to me, though I am sure many on here will think its terrible. I like weird things like that, the sort of things you can't find in too many places.

The hole is actually quite playable so long as one follows the Dirty Harry admonition:  "A man has to know his limitations."  Even with the pin tucked into one of those cool angles, there is nothing wrong with a safe iron into the middle of the green for a two putt par.

Desmond's most famous hole has no safety play - be straight or wet!

[John Moore II]

John — terrible is such a terrible word. I have tried to accomplish some interesting and fun things. It's difficult, and certainly not for every client, site or membership.

Desmond comes to mind. He did a lot of neat things beyond the controversial, and had a lot of ideas...never any shortage of those.

You are correct, terrible is a bad word to use; I didn't actually realize it was you that started the thread and that I was talking about one of your courses. I would have said the same thing though. Its just fact though that many on here think that anything that isn't minimalist or 100 years old is crap. Some even think that courses located outside of a specific, foreign (to America) piece of land are all garbage. I personally don't. My first thought when I saw that picture was 'damn, thats some weird stuff; I like it."

[Forrest Richardson]

I find it interesting that this thread has all of 3-4 interested parties. Maybe that is a sad comment of where golf design has been or is headed. I feel like many of us are re-inventing the lava lamp because it is cool. Rather, we might spend more time inventing the next lava lamp.

[John Moore II]

Bill-That picture of the green at Las Palomas looks pretty cool to me, though I am sure many on here will think its terrible. I like weird things like that, the sort of things you can't find in too many places.

The hole is actually quite playable so long as one follows the Dirty Harry admonition:  "A man has to know his limitations."  Even with the pin tucked into one of those cool angles, there is nothing wrong with a safe iron into the middle of the green for a two putt par.

Desmond's most famous hole has no safety play - be straight or wet!

My comments from above echo for this green. While I don't think I would like a course like that on a daily basis, to play once in a while would be great. Kind of like a NASCAR fan watching F-1. For the real race fan, they're both fun and interesting, and quite different.

Bill-If that photo is from Stone Harbor, I am left to assume they have drastically changed that hole, as the current aerial views do not show a hole looking even remotely similar to that one. Yes?

[jeffwarne]

During the past 30 years (30 seemed a good distance back) who has contributed the "new" in golf architecture?  By "new" I am referring to anything well liked and fun and that is also not a rehash of the days gone by, reinterpretations or "bring backs" of things that have already been tried. Pete Dye comes to mind, as do a few others. What say the GCA-ers?

If you gathered a bunch of building architects to discuss their favorite new projects, I don't think they'd be worshiping new projects that were copies of ideas and structures from the colonial era.
They'd more likely be discussing cutting edge projects that were indeed something new, as Forrest suggests, rather than faux old projects.

Also interestingly on this site related to architecture,with new clubhouse construction, there is a love of "pottery ban" faux old clubhouses, and a disdain for cutting edge modern building architecture such as Liberty National, The Bridge, and Castle Stuart.

Of course I'm guilty as charged , living in a 9 year old faux old shingled home(complete with some pottery barn furniture),  I love to play older courses, and if I had the opportunity to influence the design of a course, my ideas would certainly tend to Golden Age architecture

[Garland Bayley]

I find it interesting that this thread has all of 3-4 interested parties. Maybe that is a sad comment of where golf design has been or is headed. I feel like many of us are re-inventing the lava lamp because it is cool. Rather, we might spend more time inventing the next lava lamp.

I would imagine there are a lot of interested parties. The problem is that each time a thread like this is started, a neophyte or two posts what they thing is new and unique, and someone is able to post, that's been done or comes from X. See Desmond reference above.

Some of us simply seem to find there is indeed nothing new under the sun.

[Garland Bayley]

If you gathered a bunch of building architects to discuss their favorite new projects, I don't think they'd be worshiping new projects that were copies of ideas and structures from the colonial era.
They'd more likely be discussing cutting edge projects that were indeed something new, as Forrest suggests, rather than faux old projects.

...

Perhaps then the new stuff is really things like paspalum (sp?) that get us to more cutting edge "green" design.

[Bill_McBride]

I find it interesting that this thread has all of 3-4 interested parties. Maybe that is a sad comment of where golf design has been or is headed. I feel like many of us are re-inventing the lava lamp because it is cool. Rather, we might spend more time inventing the next lava lamp.

I would imagine there are a lot of interested parties. The problem is that each time a thread like this is started, a neophyte or two posts what they thing is new and unique, and someone is able to post, that's been done or comes from X. See Desmond reference above.

Some of us simply seem to find there is indeed nothing new under the sun.

Garland, I posted the Stone Harbor photo to contrast its one-dimensionality (hit the green or die) with the playability of the concrete edged hole in Mexico.  Were you suggesting that I was putting myself down?

[Garland Bayley]

I find it interesting that this thread has all of 3-4 interested parties. Maybe that is a sad comment of where golf design has been or is headed. I feel like many of us are re-inventing the lava lamp because it is cool. Rather, we might spend more time inventing the next lava lamp.

I would imagine there are a lot of interested parties. The problem is that each time a thread like this is started, a neophyte or two posts what they thing is new and unique, and someone is able to post, that's been done or comes from X. See Desmond reference above.

Some of us simply seem to find there is indeed nothing new under the sun.

Garland, I posted the Stone Harbor photo to contrast its one-dimensionality (hit the green or die) with the playability of the concrete edged hole in Mexico.  Were you suggesting that I was putting myself down?

No, I was suggesting that I understood Forrest to point out the jagged edges are suggested by Desmond.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Forrest,

Its an interesting topic and the only reason I haven't answered is because I can't think of much.

I was going to say copy cat courses, but that is just applying higher tech and fidelity to a bring back concept.  The Faz idea of perfection on dismal sites by total re-grading is kind of new, but then there was Lido.

It seems that anything new is a result of technology - PVC drain pipe made drainage cheaper, so there is more of it, more irrigation, etc.  All of those things have affected designs final products and look. 

In the sense of strategy, I suspect its adaptations as much as anything new.  Would the intentionally drivable par 4 count?  Most gca's wrote that short par 4's had no "kick" and avoided them, although some became drivable via technolgy over the years.  But to design one specifically to have an option to reach it in one might be new.

[Niall C]

During the past 30 years (30 seemed a good distance back) who has contributed the "new" in golf architecture?  By "new" I am referring to anything well liked and fun and that is also not a rehash of the days gone by, reinterpretations or "bring backs" of things that have already been tried. Pete Dye comes to mind, as do a few others. What say the GCA-ers?

If you gathered a bunch of building architects to discuss their favorite new projects, I don't think they'd be worshiping new projects that were copies of ideas and structures from the colonial era.
They'd more likely be discussing cutting edge projects that were indeed something new, as Forrest suggests, rather than faux old projects.

Also interestingly on this site related to architecture,with new clubhouse construction, there is a love of "pottery ban" faux old clubhouses, and a disdain for cutting edge modern building architecture such as Liberty National, The Bridge, and Castle Stuart.

Of course I'm guilty as charged , living in a 9 year old faux old shingled home(complete with some pottery barn furniture),  I love to play older courses, and if I had the opportunity to influence the design of a course, my ideas would certainly tend to Golden Age architecture

Jeff

Small point but the clubhouse at Castle Stuart can hardly be called cutting edge given it is obviously "Art Deco" style fashionable in the 1930's (?), which by the way I quite like.

Taking Mac's point about improvements in agronomy/grasses, kind of similiar to innovation in building design which often goes hand in hand with new products/building materials. Perhaps all that is new over the last 30 years has only brought changes to the engineering side of the design rather than the artistic/strategic side.

Niall

[Bill_McBride]

I find it interesting that this thread has all of 3-4 interested parties. Maybe that is a sad comment of where golf design has been or is headed. I feel like many of us are re-inventing the lava lamp because it is cool. Rather, we might spend more time inventing the next lava lamp.

I would imagine there are a lot of interested parties. The problem is that each time a thread like this is started, a neophyte or two posts what they thing is new and unique, and someone is able to post, that's been done or comes from X. See Desmond reference above.

Some of us simply seem to find there is indeed nothing new under the sun.

Garland, I posted the Stone Harbor photo to contrast its one-dimensionality (hit the green or die) with the playability of the concrete edged hole in Mexico.  Were you suggesting that I was putting myself down?

No, I was suggesting that I understood Forrest to point out the jagged edges are suggested by Desmond.

Please read the posts again, Forrest didn't mention Desmond.   I think the hole at Las Palomas is sui generis.

[Garland Bayley]

I find it interesting that this thread has all of 3-4 interested parties. Maybe that is a sad comment of where golf design has been or is headed. I feel like many of us are re-inventing the lava lamp because it is cool. Rather, we might spend more time inventing the next lava lamp.

I would imagine there are a lot of interested parties. The problem is that each time a thread like this is started, a neophyte or two posts what they thing is new and unique, and someone is able to post, that's been done or comes from X. See Desmond reference above.

Some of us simply seem to find there is indeed nothing new under the sun.

Garland, I posted the Stone Harbor photo to contrast its one-dimensionality (hit the green or die) with the playability of the concrete edged hole in Mexico.  Were you suggesting that I was putting myself down?

No, I was suggesting that I understood Forrest to point out the jagged edges are suggested by Desmond.

Please read the posts again, Forrest didn't mention Desmond.   I think the hole at Las Palomas is sui generis.

John — terrible is such a terrible word. I have tried to accomplish some interesting and fun things. It's difficult, and certainly not for every client, site or membership.

Desmond comes to mind. He did a lot of neat things beyond the controversial, and had a lot of ideas...never any shortage of those.

Read them again yourself Bill.

Forrest is responding to John's post about the jagged green edge at Las Palomas. Since it was the topic of discussion, it is eminently reasonable to assume he is relating Desmond to it. If he wants to change subject in the middle of his post, then he needs to add more sign posts.

[jeffwarne]

During the past 30 years (30 seemed a good distance back) who has contributed the "new" in golf architecture?  By "new" I am referring to anything well liked and fun and that is also not a rehash of the days gone by, reinterpretations or "bring backs" of things that have already been tried. Pete Dye comes to mind, as do a few others. What say the GCA-ers?

If you gathered a bunch of building architects to discuss their favorite new projects, I don't think they'd be worshiping new projects that were copies of ideas and structures from the colonial era.
They'd more likely be discussing cutting edge projects that were indeed something new, as Forrest suggests, rather than faux old projects.

Also interestingly on this site related to architecture,with new clubhouse construction, there is a love of "pottery ban" faux old clubhouses, and a disdain for cutting edge modern building architecture such as Liberty National, The Bridge, and Castle Stuart.

Of course I'm guilty as charged , living in a 9 year old faux old shingled home(complete with some pottery barn furniture),  I love to play older courses, and if I had the opportunity to influence the design of a course, my ideas would certainly tend to Golden Age architecture

Jeff

Small point but the clubhouse at Castle Stuart can hardly be called cutting edge given it is obviously "Art Deco" style fashionable in the 1930's (?), which by the way I quite like.

Taking Mac's point about improvements in agronomy/grasses, kind of similiar to innovation in building design which often goes hand in hand with new products/building materials. Perhaps all that is new over the last 30 years has only brought changes to the engineering side of the design rather than the artistic/strategic side.

Niall

Niall,
Great point-I was confusing new with different
which only further supports Garland's point that perhaps there is nothing new under the sun
The Bridge pays homage to the futurisic modern structures of the 50's and 60's from its' heydey

[Sean Leary]

What about building playable courses on previously unbuildable sites. Mountain courses etc...

[John Moore II]

The problem is too few people want to see anything really out of the ordinary. I like stuff that is wild and crazy. I like traditional as well, but sometimes the outlandish is fun. If its good enough, then the outlandish can become fun enough to be played all the time. That Muirhead green from Stone Harbor was probably excessive and over the top, but only because it was too small. Make that green double the size in that picture and its fine (but instead they blew it up and remade it with a less innovative island green).

I say that if the Redan, Cape, and Eden are the classic template holes, thats all well and good; lets find some new template holes to use going forward. However, among circles like this one, such as that would never fly because the majority on here are completely against anything that goes far more than slightly astray of courses designed 100 years ago or more. 

[Bill_Yates]

Forrest,
Correct me if I'm wrong but the only new template hole created in recent years that type I can come up with would be the true "island green" par 3.  The earliest one I can remember seeing is the design by RTJ at the Golden Horseshoe Course in Williamsburg, VA circa 1964. That predates your 30 year rule, but more recently, another new template hole (never repeated) is the "green on a boat" design at Coeur d'Alene.

[Mac Plumart]

The green on a boat has to be new!! 

I don't know if this helps, but here are the "unanimous gems" that came about in your 30 year time frame.  Maybe there is something new in there, maybe not...I am not educated enough to know...but nothing jumps out at me.

Pacific Dunes
Bandon Dunes
Whisting Straits/Straits
Sand Hills
Kiawah Ocean Course
TPC Sawgrass

Cape Kidnappers       
Barnbougle Dunes       
Nine Bridges       
Kauri Cliffs       
Kingsbarns     
Loch Lomond       
Cabo de Sol (Ocean)       
European Club       

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