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Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
What is shaping?
« on: July 25, 2010, 08:27:40 PM »
Okay, so on another thread, our friend Don Mahaffey brings up a good point.  What is good shaping?  

I've heard him describe it as, "Move a little here, move some other over there, screw around with this pile for awhile, and Voila!  Just don't go for a 100 yards and then come back, cause that's not natural."  I think it would be a very cool thread if some guys came out and talked about what they think makes good shaping.  What are the tools, techniques, movements, and definitions they are looking for, etc.  Throw around basic definitions for words that may not be normal nomenclature.  

We've got archies and shapers with "stick time".  What do you think?


paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is shaping?
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2010, 08:35:51 PM »
Ben congratulations on your 1000th post!

 I can't add much more without help of a publisher...its really not that simple...or hell, maybe it is....I but 'd much rather be doing it than writing about it.

I'm going to pass. :)
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: What is shaping?
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2010, 08:43:23 PM »
Paul,

It's a big topic for sure.  I just thought that little additions here and there from the multitudes of dudes on here would generate cool ideas.

That, and I wanted my 1000th post to be memorable. ;D

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is shaping?
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2010, 08:53:12 PM »
Ben,
I would say shaping is the sculpting of the course....good shaping is the ability to create the holes and the strategies designed within the holes while leaving the site in a state where the average golfer/rater/staff will say "they really didn't have to do much here"....  most of this type shaping is done from the inside out....
Bad shaping is where a shaper looks at a drawing and places that design on an exisiting topo with out melting it in to the land...usally defined by more abrupt short choppy tie -ins.... most of this shaping is done from the outside in....JMO ;)  for example..while I might appreciate Seth Raynor courses...many I have seen were not great shaping....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is shaping?
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2010, 08:58:03 PM »
OK...make sure it drains and try to make it look/seem natural.....unless you are Raynor or Dye or...?
« Last Edit: July 25, 2010, 09:51:47 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Don_Mahaffey

Re: What is shaping?
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2010, 09:11:05 PM »
Ben,
Mike Young pretty much describes it in this thread and the other he started.
As you know I've been doing some work with Joe Hancock and Joe shaped at Wolf Point as well. He's a very good shaper who trained under Mike DeVries. I think Joe approaches it from the golf perspective first as Mike Y described in that he wants to create the best golf on the land he has to work with and of course it has to function and be maintainable. What I find interesting about Joe and I is our Superintendent background drives us to be a little bolder because we really do know what is maintainable. Often we hear about Supers trying to tame things to make them more maintainable, but for Joe and I it's the opposite. Good or bad I don't know but that's the case.
As far as the quote you attribute to me, I'm not a big fan of shaping with long pushes as things just end up a little too flattened out and uniform for me. You can shape a hillside without running the length of it. Smaller pushes seem to lead to more micro stuff and I'm a big fan of that. Personal preference. 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: What is shaping?
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2010, 09:34:02 PM »
I'm not a big fan of shaping with long pushes as things just end up a little too flattened out and uniform for me. You can shape a hillside without running the length of it. Smaller pushes seem to lead to more micro stuff and I'm a big fan of that. Personal preference. 

Don:

I agree with your point of view, but that is really about how the routing and the shaping mesh together.  You can build a bunch of holes with smaller pushes if the architect puts them all in the right place.


Ben:

I told one of the cameramen for Mike Robin's film that, for me, feedback isn't what people tell me about my courses; feedback is seeing what happens to the ball after it lands.  That's really what shaping is all about ... controlling how the ball reacts, at the same time you are trying to blend in all your work so it looks like it belongs.

At the same time, shaping is about being able to get on the ground what the architect wants.  I let my guys freelance more than most with regard to the details, but they never get on the machine without some goals they've got to achieve.  A good shaper will bring ideas to the table, but if the designer wants to go in a different direction, the shaper had better be willing to start over, or he's really not being any help at all.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is shaping?
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2010, 09:38:56 PM »
Ben....shaping is about being able to get on the ground what the architect wants.  I let my guys freelance more than most with regard to the details, but they never get on the machine without some goals they've got to achieve.  A good shaper will bring ideas to the table, but if the designer wants to go in a different direction, the shaper had better be willing to start over, or he's really not being any help at all.

Chow,

Paul
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is shaping?
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2010, 09:48:34 PM »
[quote author=Tom_Doak link=topic=45229.msg989972#msg989972 date=1280108042


Ben:

I told one of the cameramen for Mike Robin's film that, for me, feedback isn't what people tell me about my courses; feedback is seeing what happens to the ball after it lands.  That's really what shaping is all about ... controlling how the ball reacts, at the same time you are trying to blend in all your work so it looks like it belongs.


[/quote]

Don,
I think the above quote form TD says a lot about the regular generic shaper and a good shaper....BUT don't you agree that the problem with all of this is that less than 1% of the golfers can appreciate/distinguish the difference?  They form their opinion on the intangible of the designer's notoriety....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Don_Mahaffey

Re: What is shaping?
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2010, 09:54:54 PM »
Mike,
Absolutely. Lots of guys can build golfy looking stuff, but making it work is the key and TD describes it well.
Not long ago Joe and I were walking a course. The shaping was clean, the grass was nice, but he hated it because noting went together for him from a golfer perspective. He kept saying this green doesn't work with the fwy and he'd explain why and on and on and on.
This was a course built per plan, but the shaper wasn't a golfer and it showed, to us. I have a feeling for most though they'd think it was great as the work was clean and functional.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is shaping?
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2010, 09:57:21 PM »
Ben,

Nice topic but hard to answer without lots of visual examples, because it is mostly a visual thing.  I am not 100% sure I agree with TD about controlling the ball because its harder to know just how dry something is going to be.  Sure, in a general sense, we might place a nursing slope on the right, and know it needs to be at least a few % to direct a ball left, but that can be from 3 to 10%, depending on watering, soils, etc.  In most cases, that is a gca decision, on plan or in the field.

I do agree with most, although I have seen few shapers with real golf knowledge. I have worked with one shaper three times who has a habit of narrowing up my green front openings and adding contour to my greens.  If we work together again......so bad shaping is part habit, or maybe not getting enough fill placed or having too big an ego.  I have heard that "we did it this way for Fazio" and quickly tell them it doesn't matter.  

There are actually a few Fazio shaping quirks that I really dislike, although there are few things I really have learned from.  Hard to describe, but one of their strengths is often that their shaped land forms follow the natural contours rather than the new green or tee shapes, even if those are at "odd" angles to the feature.  But nearly every Faz cousre has one green where the surrounding ridge just follows the edge of the green perfectly and looks terribly articial.

I felt like this was always a strength of Perry Maxwell shaping as well (whereas Press just did the 2,3,4, or 5 mounders, placed at predictable places around the green)

I hate to describe good shaping in terms of bad shaping that doesn't qualify!

The nuts and bolts things I think make for good shaping are following natural cues rather than design cues (as above), cutting swales in built features at a slight angle to the main slope.  If they build two mounds, 90% of the time, the swale between them comes down at an almost perfect 90 degrees to the high point.  Guys who can cut that swale at a slight angle start to automatically set up varing slopes on each side which always looks better.  (Look at most green swales and they exit at 90 degrees to the green edge, too.  Here again, Faz actually shines)

Tying in the bottom slopes seems to be more of a lost art, usually because of dirt shortages, but the toes of slopes need to flare out a bit, not continue down at their normal slope until the interstect the ground.

There is a tendency to repeat spacing, slopes, etc. on almost any built features, perhaps because the size of the dozer sort of dictates it.  Look carefully, and many mounds are placed, say 45 feet apart in a repetion.  Again, using natures cures rather than those on the joystick of the dozer yields better results, as does (in general) not moving dirt too far.

I probably haven't desribed it well. As above, maybe we should all post pix of good shaping, in our opinons.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: What is shaping?
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2010, 11:46:53 PM »
This is all fantastic stuff fellas.  Like any good war plan, it takes different machines.  I often wonder how a course would look if, say, a D6 was the primary instrument for one hole, and then something small--like a skid steer with a blade--was used exclusively for another hole. 

I also feel that natural drainage--surface draining--can also greatly influence a balls movement.  A ball is going to fall off a slope just like water.  Dirt reacts most strongly to two natural effects, gravity and fluids.  I always try to imagine dirt starting high and ending low, and then how water and wind (fluids) would effect that natural migration.   

I guess it's why I like the waterfall effect of greens like 16 at Pasa and 8 at Ballyneal so much.  Or the way that the 8th fairway at Colorado GC rolls and slides UP the hill to a green that does the same thing.  Like an avalanche just cleared the slope of trees and that's all it took.

Rob Swift

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is shaping?
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2010, 02:57:33 AM »
For me, as easy as it may sound, good shaping is having the ability to make the ground do as the architect wants as well as having the eye and ability to visualize what the architect wants.

The link between the architect and shaper/final shaper, is vital to making great golf courses. This is where I think Tom Doak has got it 100% right as he trusts his guys completely to do exactly what he wants and has the confidence to give them the freedom to make certain changes according to what they see fit. As we know this method has produced many great golf courses for them.

I can only comment from a final shapers point of view. I think good final shaping involves seamless lines between greens, surrounds, fairways and roughs etc. When dealing with very undulating greens, as we did at the RACV club, the transition from one slope to the next has to be gradual enough to ensure the greens are playable and can be maintained to a high level.

Do architects think shaping and final shaping are two different jobs for two different people?

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is shaping?
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2010, 06:42:00 AM »
What is the RACV club?
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is shaping?
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2010, 08:09:18 AM »
Rob Swift,

Your thoughts on making transitions maintainable and seamless are appropriate.

Finish shaping is different that shaping. Finish shaping, left to anyone without proper methodologies, will undo much of what a talented, knowledgeable shaper had in mind during the creation process. Methodologies vary, of course, but there are some things one can do to retain the original thoughts and shapes while doing the finish phase of shaping. I prefer to finish what I started, especially greens and bunkers, not because no one else can learn, but with the image of the subgrade in my mind, I can recreate the original thought in the finish grade faster than teaching/monitoring someone else doing the work. People who you work with often can get into your head and appropriately finish what you started.

Every once in awhile, you get to work with an architect whose original ideas negate the need to be fussy with the finish shaping, but those are rare situations.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is shaping?
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2010, 10:24:21 AM »
I would question the concept of making what is shaped "belong".  There are some fantastic holes which obviously don't "belong", but still work very well.  Hell, we have some designers who made a career of it, namely Raynor.  That is of course assuming "belong" doesn't have some sort of mystical meaning where people see Raynor's work as "belonging".  To me, the main purpose of shaping is to make the intended design work and be as aesthetically pleasing as it can be.  It doesn't matter if that design looks totally man-made or natural.  There is a place in shaping for both and everything inbetween.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: What is shaping?
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2010, 05:18:13 PM »
Sean,

Good point.  I think many would consider the shaping done at NGLA, Yale, Piping Rock, etc, to be of a very high level.  How come we think that the ground movement on those courses is just as good as courses like Sand Hills, Shinnecock, and Pine Valley?

One is inherently unnatural and "unbelonging", yet it works beautifully. 

I think that it ALL boils down to how the ball reacts to the surface.


paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is shaping?
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2010, 09:23:37 PM »
I'm way over my head....never knew shaping and shapers was this complicated...I'm learning....boy o boy.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is shaping?
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2010, 09:30:49 PM »
RACV Royal Auto Club Victoria ?   Royal Pines Resort and Cape Schanck

TEPaul

Re: What is shaping?
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2010, 09:33:37 PM »
"I'm way over my head....never knew shaping and shapers was this complicated...I'm learning....boy o boy."


Paul:

That post is just so uniquely YOU! My God I wish more people who look at this website really knew you. If they did they may actually learn something about golf course architecture as I sure have from you.

I've been saying it for years now but no one seems to listen----and that is if anyone on here who has not done it really wants to understand architecture they just have to do more than read about golf courses historically in articles and such or even go see them and play them----they really need to get out there in the field and watch people like you conceptualize about them, route them and design them and make them!

Do you really think most of these so-called experts on here who haven't really done that are going to understand that or agree with it?

Of course not!

Gary Daughters

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is shaping?
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2010, 10:14:08 PM »

Bad shaping is ...... usally defined by more abrupt short choppy tie -ins....


Mike, some of the most laughable excesses in my business (you hear them every day) are those lame transitions that purport to link hopelessly unrelated items.   Is it ever better in GCA to go ahead and say "f--- flow" as is occasionally muttered down on Techwood?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2010, 10:47:15 PM by Gary Daughters »
THE NEXT SEVEN:  Alfred E. Tupp Holmes Municipal Golf Course, Willi Plett's Sportspark and Driving Range, Peachtree, Par 56, Browns Mill, Cross Creek, Piedmont Driving Club

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is shaping?
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2010, 10:15:39 PM »
Shaping is a process.

Shaping is the building of golf forms.
Shaping creates golf from within a landscape.
Shaping effects both negative and positive space.
Shaping makes catch basins disappear.

Good shaping feels as though a landscape evolved into a golf course rather than transformed itself into one.

Peter Pallotta

Re: What is shaping?
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2010, 10:28:47 PM »
Hey, I think it's time for another tired old jazz analogy, strained and of dubious merit.

I think good shapers are like good jaz improvisers. They take in and absorb the tune and the chord progression that nature and the architect has given them (i.e. the natural site and site surrounds, and the routing and design features) and then are able to improvise well enough within those parametres to make things sound (i.e. look) natural and fresh and exciting.

In other words, they're able to internalize the big shapes/arcs of the narrative so that they can pour out almost without thought the little shapes/embellishments that complete it  One difference, of course, is that some of the great jaz improvisers made a career playing 'outside the changes', i.e. basically ignoring the chord progressions and obeying some 'higher authority' and musical rules of their own devising -- and I'm guessing most architects wouldn't suffer that kind of freelancing from their shapers for very long.  (Even with the jazz greats, the music only worked if only one of them was freelancng like that -- and if they could hire willing and able sidemen who knew how to follow them wherever they went.)   

Yup.  And with that and a cup of coffee, I'd have a cup of coffee.

Peter      
« Last Edit: July 26, 2010, 10:45:40 PM by PPallotta »

TEPaul

Re: What is shaping?
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2010, 10:44:16 PM »
How many of you have been out there and actually watched a golf architect try to communicate with a shaper and then watched the shaper try to carry out what the architect asked him to do.

Let's see a show of hands!  ;)
« Last Edit: July 26, 2010, 11:19:34 PM by TEPaul »

Peter Pallotta

Re: What is shaping?
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2010, 10:59:04 PM »
TE - my arms are hanging down by my side still, my hands resting on the keyboard and not raised in the air...

But while I'm at it (typing that is), that exchange you had with Paul C is inspiring me to create an one act play that you can perfom together.  It's called: "Someone Get Me a Cigarette".

Scene One

Tom approaches Paul, standing on a broad and gently rolling natural expanse. Tom butts out a cigarette before:

Tom: What is shaping?

Paul: Why do you want to know?

Tom thinks about this. He lights another cigarette. He thinks some more. The curtain comes down.

Scene Two

Tom and Paul are as they were.  Tom butts out a cigarette.

Tom: What is shaping?

Paul: I hear it's raining in Kuala Lampur. (Pause) Strange.   

Tom: An egg salad on rye - with a twist of lemon. 

(Pause)

Paul: Alright. (pointing off stage, towards the horizon) Look over there.

Tom does. And as he does, a light shines down from on high, illuminating him.

Tom: Damn!  (Pause) Someone get me a cigarette. 

The curtain comes down.