Composite Courses

[Ed Oden]

Which composite courses are significantly better than the course normally in play for the members.  Which ones don't really improve the course?  Which flow naturally so that if you didn't know any better you'd never know it wasn't the normal routing?  Which feel disjointed and forced?

[David_Madison]

Ridgewood CC takes holes from its three nines to make up its composite course. I'm not 100% positive, but there might be more than one combination that they have used. The three nines are completely homogenous, and the flow from hole to hole is seamless. The tournament composite is a longer and stronger course than any combination of two nines, but not in a hugely meaningful way. It should be noted that important professional and amateur events have been held at RCC using different combinations of two fully intact nines. 

[Mike_Clayton]

Royal Melbourne Composite is a better course than the West - which is the best single course in Australia.
There is nothing disjointed about playing it and of the 6 holes from the East on the Composite probably four are better than the ones from the West they replace.

[PCCraig]

The Composite ("Championship") course at The Country Club in Brookline essentially replaces three somewhat easy holes on the "members" course with 3 hard holes on the Primrose nine (designed by Flynn). The first composite hole isn't great IMO, as it requires a hard hook off the tee then an approach shot over the Primrose's 1st green to a green over a pond. The second is the best of the three, and usually plays as a par-5 for the members, but the pros play it as one of the hardest par-4 I've ever played as the second shot is totally blind and up the hill to a tiny green. The third is a plain par-4 down a hill.

The course is pretty easy to complete with the only long walk being when you pass the members 12th hole.

Can't say the course is 100% "better" but it is certainly "harder" than the member's course.

[Bill_McBride]

Royal Melbourne Composite is a better course than the West - which is the best single course in Australia.
There is nothing disjointed about playing it and of the 6 holes from the East on the Composite probably four are better than the ones from the West they replace.

Mike, there are no longer walks to create the composite?  Somebody posted an aerial of the two courses showing the composite but I've forgotten the details.  I guess we'll see it next year in the President's Cup if I remember correctly.

Thanks.

[Ed Oden]

David, I just played the composite (Championship) course at Ridgewood last week, which is what prompted me to start this thread.  I found it very interesting.  There are actually 5 points where the course switches between nines or holes are played out of order.  Not sure why, but that was more than I was expecting.  Regardless, you are spot on that the transitions work very nicely because they generally occur in areas where holes and/or the nines converge.  No unusually long walks are involved.  And you are also right that all of the holes and the three nines are homogenous in character.  So things don't feel any different when you do make a transition.  At the end of the day, an uninformed visitor could easily play the Championship routing without ever realizing it isn't a normal sequence of holes.  However, I suspect that the composite routing at Ridgewood does make a big difference in the overal quality of the course.  It looks to me like they really did pick and choose the best holes out of the three nines (7 from the East, 5 from the Center and 6 from the West).  Are there any standout holes that are excluded from the Championship course?  How much is Ridgewood improved by using the composite course?

[Mike_Clayton]

Bill,

It depends on the order they play it in but for the Presidents Cup the walks are negligable - 4 to 5 (6w - 1e) is the longest and it is only 80 yards. There is probably less walking than there is on the West Course because there is a road crossing out to 13 West and back for the 17th tee.

[John Moore II]

While its not exactly a 'composite' course, and certainly not a great course, you can make an 18 hole composite course at Foxfire Resort on Pinehurst, playing what is actually the original 18 holes on the property. This routing is typically not available, although during the summer and winter months, I can see it possibly being available if someone were to ask.

And Prestonwood in Cary, NC does some odd composite course for the Champions Tour event there, but I am not sure how much better it may be than the regular courses.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

It depends on the order they play it in but for the Presidents Cup the walks are negligable - 4 to 5 (6w - 1e) is the longest and it is only 80 yards. There is probably less walking than there is on the West Course because there is a road crossing out to 13 West and back for the 17th tee.

Thanks, sounds very good.

I really do need to get Down Under.....(audible sigh     )

[AndrewB]

David, I just played the composite (Championship) course at Ridgewood last week, which is what prompted me to start this thread.  I found it very interesting.  There are actually 5 points where the course switches between nines or holes are played out of order.  Not sure why, but that was more than I was expecting.  Regardless, you are spot on that the transitions work very nicely because they generally occur in areas where holes and/or the nines converge.  No unusually long walks are involved.  And you are also right that all of the holes and the three nines are homogenous in character.  So things don't feel any different when you do make a transition.  At the end of the day, an uninformed visitor could easily play the Championship routing without ever realizing it isn't a normal sequence of holes.  However, I suspect that the composite routing at Ridgewood does make a big difference in the overal quality of the course.  It looks to me like they really did pick and choose the best holes out of the three nines (7 from the East, 5 from the Center and 6 from the West).  Are there any standout holes that are excluded from the Championship course?  How much is Ridgewood improved by using the composite course?

I think you got Center and West switched there since it's more likely that you considered 6C (the drivable par four commonly referred to as Five and Dime) and 5W (the mid-length par four whose green has several interesting and challenging slopes).

I'm biased since I grew up playing at Ridgewood CC, but I'm of the opinion that it's not so much improved from the composite routing as much as it's just made more difficult and suitable for competitive play of the world's best.  The holes left out of the composite course used first for the 2008 Barclays and again for this year's are eight and nine on East, one, seven, eight, and nine on Center, and one, two and three on West.  These are all very good holes but the only one that could be considered particularly difficult is the 209 yard, uphill par three third on West.  The others are on the shorter side for players of that level (though several still could prove to be tricky with certain hole locations).

I think it's a wonderful routing for a field like this and the more I think about it, the more impressed I am with how well it works.  One other thing to note is that this composite course plays forward tees on the second and fourth holes on Center and changes the pars from five to four.  These are the seventh (4C) and 12th (2C) holes in the composite routing.

[Jed Peters]

How about the MPCC Composite?

Or the Brookline Composite?

I, for one, think that the MPCC Composite would be one of the most fun, best golf courses....anywhere.

[AndrewB]

Ridgewood CC takes holes from its three nines to make up its composite course. I'm not 100% positive, but there might be more than one combination that they have used. The three nines are completely homogenous, and the flow from hole to hole is seamless. The tournament composite is a longer and stronger course than any combination of two nines, but not in a hugely meaningful way. It should be noted that important professional and amateur events have been held at RCC using different combinations of two fully intact nines. 

To add to this, the 2001 Senior PGA used a different composite routing from all three nines: 1-6 Center, 5-7 East, 9 Center, 2-9 West.  The 1990 US Senior Open played Center and West.  The 2000 Met (MGA) Amateur and 1974 US Amateur used East and West, as have many of the regional open and amateur events held at Ridgewood.  Though, the 2009 Met Open did use the same composite routing as the 2008 Barclays.

[John Moore II]

How about the MPCC Composite?

Or the Brookline Composite?

I, for one, think that the MPCC Composite would be one of the most fun, best golf courses....anywhere.

Jed, do you know how to copy and post a Google Earth to here and note which holes would be in the composite 18?

[Ed Oden]

I think you got Center and West switched there since it's more likely that you considered 6C (the drivable par four commonly referred to as Five and Dime) and 5W (the mid-length par four whose green has several interesting and challenging slopes).

Andrew, I think you misconstrued my post just a bit, no doubt because it wasn't very clear.  I wasn't referring to specific holes but rather to the number of holes pulled from each of the three nines (i.e., the composite course is comprised of 7 holes from the East, 5 holes from the Center and 6 holes from the West).  Regardless, thanks for chiming in on the other holes that were left out of the Championship course.  That's exactly the type of info I was looking for.  As for converting 4C from a par 5 to a par 4, that green seems an incredibly small target to hit with a long iron.  Looks to me like its designed to accept wedge shots.  Then again, the pros are so long maybe some will be hitting it with a wedge!

[Kevin Pallier]

Royal Melbourne Composite is a better course than the West

I agree with that notion Mike

One I'd like to consider doing is a few composite routings at is Sunningdale. I love both the Old and New layouts there but I'd love to try for starters the following routing:

1-10 Old
11-12-5-6-7-14 New
16 Old
18 New

[Kevin Pallier]

Interestingly - one can also potentially play 1-10 at both either of the Old or New layouts and finish off 11-18 at the other layout as well.  

[Jed Peters]

How about the MPCC Composite?

Or the Brookline Composite?

I, for one, think that the MPCC Composite would be one of the most fun, best golf courses....anywhere.

Jed, do you know how to copy and post a Google Earth to here and note which holes would be in the composite 18?

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35829.0/

and

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38831.0/

[John Moore II]

How about the MPCC Composite?

Or the Brookline Composite?

I, for one, think that the MPCC Composite would be one of the most fun, best golf courses....anywhere.

Jed, do you know how to copy and post a Google Earth to here and note which holes would be in the composite 18?

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35829.0/

and

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38831.0/

Thanks for those links. Is anyone able to post an aerial of the course so that perhaps we could see the routing?

[John Moore II]

Since I've been running Bandon Dunes through my head today thinking about the King's Putter, is it at all possible to route yourself around in such a way as to play all the ocean holes on Bandon Dunes, Pacific Dunes and Old Macdonald, and still be manageable to the point of a reasonable start and finish near the clubhouse, no mile long walks between holes and still be 18 holes?

[Kevin Pallier]

John

I have been thinking about a similar thing and came up with the following PD & OM routing

The only small change is to convert the 3rd at OM to a P3 from atop the ridge

P4   1   PD
P4   2   PD
P5   3   PD
P4   13   PD
P3   8   OM
P4   14   OM
P3*   3   OM
P4   4   OM
P4   11   OM
      
P3   12   OM
P4   13   OM
P4   9   OM
P4   7   OM
P3   14   PD
P5   15   PD
P4   16   PD
P3   17   PD
P5   18   PD

(*shorten to a P3)

another possible one would be to replace 13 & 9 at OM with 10 & 6.

[Ed Oden]

A great golf course is more than the sum of its parts.  18 individually great holes that don't work well together won't necessarily result in a better course than one with a few flaws that flows seemlessly.  One of the things I liked about the Ridgewood Championship Course is that the composite routing did not affect the flow and feel of the course as a whole.  I assume that is largely due to the fact that Tillinghast designed all 3 nines contemporaneously.  Do composite routings that utilize holes from courses designed by different architects or at different times or which have different styles or character run the risk that the parts will be greater than the sum?  For example, is MPCC's composite routing (with its combination of Raynor, Rees Jones and Strantz) a collection of great holes or a great collection of holes?  Similarly, are Old Mac and Pac Dunes too dissimilar in style and philosophy to combine with a result any better than they exist separately?

[John Moore II]

A great golf course is more than the sum of its parts.  18 individually great holes that don't work well together won't necessarily result in a better course than one with a few flaws that flows seemlessly.  One of the things I liked about the Ridgewood Championship Course is that the composite routing did not affect the flow and feel of the course as a whole.  I assume that is largely due to the fact that Tillinghast designed all 3 nines contemporaneously.  Do composite routings that utilize holes from courses designed by different architects or at different times or which have different styles or character run the risk that the parts will be greater than the sum?  For example, is MPCC's composite routing (with its combination of Raynor, Rees Jones and Strantz) a collection of great holes or a great collection of holes?  Similarly, are Old Mac and Pac Dunes too dissimilar in style and philosophy to combine with a result any better than they exist separately?

Well, the Bandon composite would sure be full of great views anyway...certainly wouldn't be worse ...well, wait a minute...Pac Dunes is #1 in the world modern, perhaps the course wouldn't be better, if it were it would probably be the best course in the world overall, but either way, it would be a fun adventure.

[Ryan Coles]

Been thinking about the old question of how much was sacrificed to get 36 holes instead of a significantly better 1x18 holes at some venues.


And at which 36 hole venues could an improved combination of holes make a better 18?


Walton Heath
Saunton
Berkshire
Sunningdale
St. George's hill (27)
3 W's


Be interested in thoughts on any of the above or any others.

[Thomas Dai]

There was a recent thread about a composite course at Cruden Bay - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,64789.0.html


I also recall Adrian highlighting a potential composite course inter-linking Saunton's East and West courses a while back, although I can't find the thread just now.


A composite at St Andrews has long been a thought of mine - tee-off on the 1st on TOC, play the best/most appropriate holes on TOC/New/Eden/Jubilee and finish on 16-17-18 of TOC.


atb

[Sean_A]

I am convinced that an excellent course could be fashioned from the 36 at Enville.  There is no question in mind that more is less in this case.  I definitely couldn't say that is true for Sunningdale.  Saunton is an interesting prospect.  Walton Heath has a composite course...no? 

Ciao