ARE YOU KIDDING ME !!!!! In Bayonne NJ

[archie_struthers]

 


Had the pleasure of playing in a one day member guest yesterday at Bayonne Golf Club and must say I was blown away by the place . It is truly a modern marvel and absolutely one of the finest courses I have ever seen or played !!!!

You start out with a quirky par four that immediately gets your blood pumping and is straight out of the Emerald Isles, from there it just gets beter and better finishing iwith hole afer hole of quality fabulously enjoyable golf.  Perhaps we have already talked a bit of Bayonne here on site but after finishing all I could say was "are you kidding me"  this pace isn't just good , it is great.

Having played a few of the great links courses in Ireland .....Bayonne is right there with all of them ...and two hours from my house here at the Jersey Shore ....it has received some kudos , but is far better than I could have imagined , and I knew going there it was really good.   Any questions please ask away     ...regards   ...."archie"

[Jay Flemma]

Yeah...it's a keeper, isn't it.  I still say they ought to change the routing, and start on 14, and finish coming up the hill to the big flagpole:)  So what that it would start with a par 3...so does Lytham.  I played it that way twice and loved it!  What a finish at 13:)

[archie_struthers]

 

Hey Jay ...still just getting all my thoughts together .....but no matter how you finish it's really way way cool  !

[John Foley]

Archie,

Pretty amazing is an understatement.

I have a bunch of pics & thoughts I hope to add shortly. Here is a teaser

[archie_struthers]

 


John that looks like my blue shafted Titleist Driver , which I left with my clubs in the parking lot last night LOL   just had too good a time ....thanks to the pro they are already winging back to OCNJ as we speak

However don't think I'm one to be a sycophant ....but check out my initial statement that it is one of the very best golf courses I have ever played ....and I've been blessed to have played some great ones

[George Freeman]

However don't think I'm one to be a sycophant ....but check out my initial statement that it is one of the very best golf courses I have ever played ....and I've been blessed to have played some great ones

Archie,

Thanks for the thread and I look forward to more commentary from you and John F. (and others)!  The course does look pretty damn cool, good to hear it plays at least as well.  If anyone wants a great tour of the course, just go to the Club's website.

As a frame of reference to your statement above, what other "great" courses have you played?  Like I said, just for a frame of reference...

And did you play one round or two?

Thanks!

George

[archie_struthers]

 

George ...I'm thinking of places like Portrush...Royal County Down ....Shinnecock ....Pine Valley ......Sand Hills ....and the like ..I was that impressed by Bayonne....I must confess that the owner / designer Eric Bergstol are friends...but it doesn't mar my judgment ...if It wasn't special , I wouldn't have siad anything

[Tim Martin]

George ...I'm thinking of places like Portrush...Royal County Down ....Shinnecock ....Pine Valley ......Sand Hills ....and the like ..I was that impressed by Bayonne....I must confess that the owner / designer Eric Bergstol are friends...but it doesn't mar my judgment ...if It wasn't special , I wouldn't have siad anything

Archie-That is some esteemed company. PV? Wow!

[George Freeman]

George ...I'm thinking of places like Portrush...Royal County Down ....Shinnecock ....Pine Valley ......Sand Hills ....and the like ..I was that impressed by Bayonne....I must confess that the owner / designer Eric Bergstol are friends...but it doesn't mar my judgment ...if It wasn't special , I wouldn't have siad anything

That is some good company!  It is safe to say my interest in Bayonne just crept up a few notches!  Thanks Archie

[Rory Connaughton]

Backdrop looks like Royal Dublin

[George Freeman]

Archie, few questions for you:

- How large are the landing areas for tee shots?  Obviously acreage was finite at the site so they couldn't go crazy with large expanses of shaved turf and I'm curious if the course is a tough driving course, especially if a wind kicked up.
- Continuing on that theme, how playable is the knee-high fescue/long grass?  Findable w/ luck-of-the-draw lies or "don't even bother looking for it?"
- How much of an elevation change is there between the highest and lowest points on the course?  Are there lots of big ups and downs out there?
- Do they have the course playing firm and fast?

Thanks in advance!

- George

[Jaeger Kovich]

Bayonne is cool. Its fun. Its certainly an experience. Its a good golf course, but not great. There are at least 5 other golf courses within 2 hours of NYC that I would rather play again than Bayonne. I would NOT consider it an are you kidding me course!!!!... I might be more like an ARE YOU KIDDING ME !!?!

Bayonne is not a golf course I would want to play everyday. Its a hard walk, and walking only. You will lose a lot of balls. There are some forced carries over wetlands, some severe elevation changes  and doesn't quite play to the ground game like it might look in pictures, but will from certain spots.

[archie_struthers]

 

Jaeger why is it just good ......?    Excellent shot values pretty generous landing areas great greens , lots of elevattion change   great greens    is the golf course hard for a bad player ...yes .... but does that really make it just ok  
the walk is pretty healthy as is the walk at PV Oakmont and Royal County Down   ...no carts   I'm ok with that although I can relate to older golfers that have issues with walking     .....  the walk is hard because of some elevation ..as the tees are close together with a few exceptions , none that are really weird

George the elevatrion changes    ....much like Merion make it appear much bigger than it might be otherwise ...the greens are really really good, which is usually the delineator between good and great  ....don't see how Jaeger can think it just ok  it meets all the criteria for me ..there some excellent quirk also...starting with the first hole which is semi blind ...it's good  eal good

the need to pancake holes in layers to create width (ala Merion) is done here ,  and impresseive architecture on130 acres......can it be real hard in the wind .....I suppose so but is that the only real gripe..... the surface , a mix of colonial bent and fescue in the fairways , i just played it in 100 degree weather with mega humidity and it was fast and firm and very healthy

   ...like I said , it really surprised me even though I had heard it was special...didn't expect one of the best courses I've ever played , but it is

[Matt_Ward]

For all the talk that Shadow Creek generates on this site and elsewhere -- the work carried out by Eric Bergstol and all the folks involved in getting Bayonne GC built is truly under-appreciated and undervalued by a great many folks who should know better. I still shake my head on what the site was previously and how Eric's vision (helped with some good timing and luck).

Bayonne transports you to a golf platform that is right smack in the middle of the urban Jersey to the max.

The golf holes are well done -- although the narrowness of a few on the front side is a bit much -- but all in all, the golf ocurse merits national acclaim because you do have a solid array of holes that call upon superb execution and ability to handle the wind velocities which can really whip through the property.

Jaeger, beg to differ with you -- Bayonne is not bulletproof but it's got plenty of beef to make it worth the national attention it rightly deserves.

George -- the fairways often appear narrower than they are -- part of that is because of the mounding which can give the effect of being really cramped. The rough is tough in spots but often times you do have bailout options. There are elevation changes at times on the course -- they are not severe but given the surrounding land just outside the course boundary lines will appear to be more so. In regards to firm and fast conditions -- you can bounce the ball at times but it's more aerial than anything else.

To mirror what Archie said -- control makes a mega difference when playing Bayonne.

Easily makes my top ten in Jersey for both the story on how it was created and the quality of the golf found there.

[Michael Taylor]

Matt,

Do you have a picture of the site, pre-work?

[Jaeger Kovich]

I never said it was crap - I said it was good not great.. And saying there are only a hand full of courses I'd play first, is a pretty solid complement in NYC.(i'd tee it up again at, WF2, Fenway, QR, Friars, BPB, Ridgewood, MR first... am i wrong?)  But It still has its faults. I dont think that finishing stretch is all its cracked out to be. There are better holes on the course. It is clearly worth attention because of the sheer imagination it takes to manufacture a golf course like that...

[Matt_Ward]

Jaeger:

I never said you said it was crap. It's more than just "good" -- the course is well done in so many areas -- plenty of risk and reward types holes and the greens have such wonderful contours that require high skill in making sure one's approach shot finishes in the correct spot.

Let me put it this way -- Bayonne makes my short list of Jersey's top ten -- that says plenty given the competition in the state. Get any real wind blowing and playing the likes of Bayonne is no cup of tea and at that point makes it more demanding than the likes of Ridgewood and MR.

When you say the finishing holes are not "all its cracked out to be" -- I wonder if you and I played the same course. Tell me what is wrong with them specifically. The downhill par-4 16th requires skillful positioning -- both on the tee and approach shots. The long par-4 17th -- when played from the tips is one tough cape-like hole. Push or pull the tee shot and any number can come into play. The uphill par-4 18th is well done because the green site demands what side of the fairway you hit from to get the ideal line of play.

But I want to say that the story of Bayonne -- unlike Shadow Creek -- is more than just the civil engineering and time and $$ consuming process to get the place built. There is plenty of beef-like holes there -- the deficiencies, in my mind, are few.

I'd place Bayonne easily among the top 50 modern courses. Unfortunately, few people play the place and as a result it gets little attention. If you placed a name architect in the credits it would fare better although Eric Bergstol did a commendable job.

Michael T:

No, I don't -- but I know of others who do and can ask them for permission to post.

[archie_struthers]

 

commendable Matt ...are you kidding me ??

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

You are not exactly backing up Archie.  Putting it in your top ten in New Jersey might not even be as high as Jaeger put it; Archie put it up there with Pine Valley, so we can assume he would have it locked in at #2.

I will agree with Archie that what Mr. Bergstol did is more than "commendable" ... it was a tremendously complicated construction project, and building anything that looks so good from such a starting point is beyond difficult.  Even if it's not really the #2 course in New Jersey.

[Sean_A]

Matt:

You are not exactly backing up Archie.  Putting it in your top ten in New Jersey might not even be as high as Jaeger put it; Archie put it up there with Pine Valley, so we can assume he would have it locked in at #2.

I will agree with Archie that what Mr. Bergstol did is more than "commendable" ... it was a tremendously complicated construction project, and building anything that looks so good from such a starting point is beyond difficult.  Even if it's not really the #2 course in New Jersey.

Tom

I was gonna say the same thing about the rating.  It seems like the two are arguing over nothing and that in fact, Jaeger may think higher of the course than Matt.  Saying Bayonne makes the short list for top 10 in Jersey implies that it is top 15 or even top 20, but not top 10.

Ciao 

[Chris Shaida]

I don't have anything near the experience in playing great courses that the rest of you have so I make not comment on 'ranking' the course but I've been fortunate to play it a few times over the past three years and I'd note the following:

- it has a great golf vibe (a combination of the strange drive in, the dark/mysterious clubhouse, no cart paths, the way you are frequently reminded of the 'out there' (the cranes, shipping containers, etc.) while being very much 'in here')

- lot's of little details that seemed to me spot on -- the size, shaping of the mounds; the paths from green to tee; the mix of groomng and scruffiness

- I like stories.  and having come somewhat late to golf, for me the story (or stories) of a golf course is an intrinsic part of my experience (I'm NOT claiming this should be the case for others!)--the story isn't just something extra, something that shouldn't affect my judgement of a course--for me it is an essential ingredient of my experience.  And for Bayonne it's not just the story of how it was built but also the story of how it continues to inter-relate with the NY harbor and NY city --it's so coherently a whole place and distinct place that sits confidently in relation to those other 'storied' places around it (particularly as contrasted with Liberty. Yikes!)

- and...it's so much fun to play (unlike Jaeger I WOULD play it everyday)

[archie_struthers]

 


Hi Tom  ..hope all is well , I don't rank courses but know when one is really good, and Bayonne is .  It reminds me most of Sand Hills given the elevation changes and bold features, and probably is more vertical given the size difference of the sites.  Having built something similar, though not near as good, it is easy to relate to how much work was done here.  

But we know its the greens that typically put a golf course inot the "special" category....and just playing them once I was really impressed.....I play pretty fast so took as much time as possible to walk all around the surfaces , hit a couple practice putts on particlularly gnarly spots and really had some fun trying to figure them out.  I liked that you could kill them into the hills..a necesary practice on really tough ones  to help control your speed on long lags...which are easy to get here

Just one snippet of the round ...#16 is a downhill par four that requires a decision on the tee shot ....driiver ..three wood ...rescue???

We were down wind ...making the second shot really challenging ( front pin)  wo you really needed to challenge the fairway bunkers wiht your tee shot to get a short wedge in your hand for the second shot....and yhou needed to spin it to keep from releasing all the way to the back of the green  ......really really challenging hole wihout being a 480 uphill par four...thats  one thing I liked so much..


Honestly thinking as to any real weknessesin the layout I'm not finding any ...too hard  it looks like you could get it going and go low....too long and boring ...certainly not .....nice mix of four pars ..five pars and threes .....the threes played pretty easy wiht the exception of # 14 but they were a fine set of holes ....the dunes are tied in really well , lots of integration with fairway , bunkers et al  and the grassing plan  captured the links look
and feel ...the ball moves ...is there a decent amount of aerial golf ...yes ...too much for some?.....I can't say yet but if there is does it disqualify the course ....not for me and I'm almost a senior golfer ( oh my )   can't wait to go back and see it again

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

A top ten placement in Jersey is not small change by any means. I would not compare Bayonne w Pine Valley but in making my top ten for the state it's more towards the front half than the back half.

I've said as much previously about the course but the denizens of preferred architects on this site have often said less of Bayonne because someone like Eric Bergstol did the design.

One other thing -- I see PV as Jersey's top course -- w Plainfield likely grabbing the runner-up position. After that the competition does heat up with any number of key courses -- Essex County CC, Ridgewood, Galloway National, Bayonne, etc, etc.

Like I said before -- for all the gushing that goes on with this site about man-made place likes Shadow Creek -- Bayonne gets far little attention and overall status. In my mind, it deserves far more.

[Link Walsh]

Matt,

Perhaps people don't talk about Bayonne because most haven't played it.  As far as your comment about other architects, you just had Tom Doak say how impressed he was with the work Eric Bergstol did on that site. 

I've been on this site for about a year, and I don't remember Shadow Creek coming up much if ever.  But if people talk about it more than Bayonne, it's probably because Shadow Creek is more accessible and so more have played it.

And I thought Essex County CC was in Massachusetts. 

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Let's have a GCA Outing/Event there.