[Ken Moum]

I offer the following quotes re. TOC from another forum where I participate.  I don't expect everyone to love the place but this level of distaste does surprise me.

I'm looking at this course and thinking that if I had to play this everyday I'd lose interest in the game. It looks like the surface of the moon.....flat, boring and lot's of craters. No hills, no trees.....lots of hidden trouble and really disorienting.

The design of the course is certainly not "genius" as it was designed to be played the OTHER way and was reversed. The bunkers were chosen by sheep. You have to hit the ball over hotels and a perfect shot into the green on 17 can end up trickling off into a place where it's virtually unplayable. Why not just hang a tire in front of the tee box and make players hit their shots through that?

Really...it's fun to watch players struggle with such anachronistic stupidity but I wouldn't want to play it. Just because golf was born there doesn't mean it hasn't come a long way for the better since. I'll take Augusta, Winged foot, Oakmont, or my own club's course all day, every day over playing St. Andrews on a daily basis.

Honestly I couldnt agree more. I love the history of the game as much as anyone but that doesnt mean I have any desire whatsoever to play that course. Basketball was played with peach baskets too - it doesnt mean I want to play with them now. I dont find that course fantastic or interesting. Sorry but if there was a course in the US where you had to hit over a BUILDING to get into the fairway people would be endlessly mocking it. But ooh ooh its St Andrews so this kind of thing becomes "quirky" and "historical". Whatever.

Love watching it but no interest in playing whatsoever. If I was there on vacation I would want to go to the town because I love historical old towns like that - but I would still have *zero* interest in playing.

I'm not a fan of the course either, but not for the same reasons as you, The things you hate are endemic to pretty much all British links layouts. It's goofy golf compared to the way Americans play the game entirely through the air, but it does have some merits and it does test a players imagination and ability to judge different shots.

What I hate about St. Andrews is that it's a crappy venue for the professional game because on most holes the ability to bomb the ball takes all the trouble out of play. With those double-wide fairways you can hit the ball 50 yards left and have a perfect lie and a perfect angle as long as you carry the trouble and for most guys that's not too hard to do. It's almost a pitch and putt for those guys, the ability to hit a tee ball accurately or make intelligent choices is negated. Just crank it and miss left and nothing bad will happen on at least 12 holes.

Just because something is old and revered doesn't mean it didn't evolve for a reason. I could not a agree more about the 18th hole....has to be the worst finishing hole in a major. Straight, flat, drivable, no real trouble, boring....no risk reward.....payoff to the big hitters who can reach it (put a finger in my mouth and pop a whoopee for emphasis here). Yes "Valley of Sin" is a great name but it really doesn't look so "sinful" to me.

O.K.....golf was "born here" but it evolved for a reason into what it is. Many great American golfers came to St. Andrews for the first time and thought it was a "goat tract". A famous example is Sam Snead who said years after he won his Claret jug there "down home we wouldn't plant bow beets on land like that". When he first saw the course from the train coming in he thought it was an old abandoned golf course....until he found out that yes....that's where they were playing the British Open! Scott Hoch called it the "worst piece of mess he'd ever played" and Jack Nicklaus' father told his son that it was the "worst golf course he'd ever seen.....what a cow pasture with horrible conditions" according to Jack. Many other players like Westwood wouldn't put it in their list of the top 200 courses to play even now. Many grow to love it after playing it over and over again but those guys play the most beautiful courses all they want and are paid to do it so getting a crack at something completely different is going to be something they either love or hate.....certainly it's going to bring out more emotion that just another beautiful American target golf course.

For me however....I don't get to play as much as I'd like and I like those beautiful American target golf courses with lush fairways, well defined greens, beautiful views and elevation changes, trees, flowers and different cuts of rough etc. I learned to play on what golf has become, not what it was a few hundred years ago and I'd rather pay to play Pebble Beach than St. Andrews (although I'd rather visit Scotland than California).

For me, St. Andrews is flat, boring, ugly and looks burnt out with rock hard fairways and I'd rather put 500 bucks toward my club membership than pay it to play there. The double greens are dangerous and hold up play and the overly penal bunkers....well it's funny to see great players stuck in them while your drinking at the local pub watching on the telly but I enjoy the art and craft of a great bunker shot and having a restricted swing with your ball up against a vertical mud wall really isn't my idea of fun. Hitting balls over hotels and to a hole with a road behind the green?..........

There's a reason there's only one hole like that.

It IS a pitch and putt... until the wind blows.

Thursday was what happens when the wind doesn't show up. Weather is the ONLY defense of this overhyped executive course.

It's a goat/sheep ranch plain and simple.

[Bill_McBride]

My first thought is that it's pretty obvious none of these guys has been to St Andrews!

[Mark Arata]

Well, the world needs ditchdiggers too.........

Good, let them think that way, less people fighting to get on the ballot, more tee times for us!

[Ken Moum]

My first thought is that it's pretty obvious none of these guys has been to St Andrews!

That's likely true, and I am no way surpised that they think the course isn't their cup of tea.  What surprises me is the vehemence of their apparent distaste.  Of course that might be nothingmore than the anonymity of the Internet allowing them to say it in a lurid way.

There's another guy who thinks Oakmont is nothing but a sod farm, with bunkers and tall rough--no strategy or interest.

Mostly I imagine it's potstirring, which I sometimes do myself.

[Bill_McBride]

My first thought is that it's pretty obvious none of these guys has been to St Andrews!

That's likely true, and I am no way surpised that they think the course isn't their cup of tea.  What surprises me is the vehemence of their apparent distaste.  Of course that might be nothingmore than the anonymity of the Internet allowing them to say it in a lurid way.

There's another guy who thinks Oakmont is nothing but a sod farm, with bunkers and tall rough--no strategy or interest.

Mostly I imagine it's potstirring, which I sometimes do myself.

Those posts took a lot of thought, so I think it's more than pot stirring.

I just feel bad that guys with obvious passion about golf are so ethnocentric, not to mention pretty ill informed.

[Melvyn Morrow]

What do you say when you read comments like that.  Yet reading them again I have selected parts of each which I find explains the sorry state of the modern game. As Bill said its seems that none have played the course. Now if I had ever said anything like that regards American courses this site would be up in arms against me, yet the total ignorance of some of the American golfers seem to shine through.

It looks like the surface of the moon.....flat, boring and lot's of craters. No hills, no trees.....lots of hidden trouble and really disorienting.
Sorry but if there was a course in the US where you had to hit over a BUILDING to get into the fairway people would be endlessly mocking it.

The things you hate are endemic to pretty much all British links layouts. It's goofy golf compared to the way Americans play the game entirely through the air, but it does have some merits and it does test a players imagination and ability to judge different shots.

For me, St. Andrews is flat, boring, ugly and looks burnt out with rock hard fairways and I'd rather put 500 bucks toward my club membership than pay it to play there

 
Judge before you try the course.  Trees and super manicured courses are the real courses of today. Guys with attitudes like that make Golf look terminally sick. The only thing missing is their claim the have invented the game, but I expect Hollywood will soon resolve that  by making a film confirming Augusta was the birthplace of the game. Well the Russians tried to rewrite their history after 1917 and anything Russia can do America can do better. 

Yet in a free society we have freedom of thought, and we all have the right to our opinion. Anyway can you really take seriously the above comments knowing that they use carts because they are too lazy to walk, they have electronic and paper aids to help choose  a club and allow them to know where they are on a golf course. Christ I also believe that they do not park their own cars getting someone to park it and retrieve it for them. These people want to be taken seriously and talk about “evolving” yet  have they not just gone back to the time of having servants in both human and electronic form     

Thank God we have Links courses in this country which are the best way of playing Golf.


Your humble servant

Melcyn

[Jim_Kennedy]

People
Offering
Moronic
Positions
Often
Underestimate
St.
Andrew's
Respected
Strategic
Examples
Sheesh!

[Ben Sims]

Last year in Bandon, my friend and I finished our afternoon at Sheep Ranch and went over to the Resort to check in.  As we were checking in, we were starving and sat down for a quick bite in the Puffin Lounge there by the practice green for Bandon Dunes.  

As we were eating, a father and son sat down.  We got to talking.  The father--as I remember he had a horse mouth--was going on and on about the golf trips he and his son have made over the past years.  This (2009) was their year to visit Bandon.  The usual suspects were mentioned.  Pebble, Pinehurst, Whistling Straits, Sea Island, Kiawah, and St. Andrews.  

I asked what they liked best, and he and the son started debating Pebble and Sea Island.  But then the debate stopped, they BOTH knew what was the worst trip they'd ever taken.  St. Andrews was--I still remember his huge dentures flapping--a goat path.  Fighting words!  The sycophantic son agreed.  My anger grew.  Even though I'd never been to Fife, I felt the need to defend her.  Fisticuffs were forthcoming!  I distinctly remember my friend quickly jumping in and convincing them to forego one of their rounds at Bandon Dunes and play the 10 hole loop at Old Macdonald.  They hadn't heard of it.  

Two days later, we ran into them at McKee's pub.  I remember not being surprised at how much they hated Old Mac.  But the next thing they said surprised me.  "That guy that designed Pacific, now HE GETS IT"

[Jfaspen]

*Never been to St. Andrews*

I don't have any problems with the look of the course or with the concept of the road hole.  I do agree with the poster who said that if there was a hyped course in the US built where a building came into the preferred line of play, it would be met with almost unanimous distaste.

I would love to and plan to play/experience St. Andrews someday.

My problem with this course/open relates to one of the other comments.  Without winds that nearly make the course unplayable, the course is defenseless against the pros.  I agree that most of the hazards are taken out of play by the sheer length of the players.  I think that the 18th is easily the weakest hole in major championship golf and i can't think of an 18th on the PGA tour that is easier/more straightforward..

I'm not suggesting that this course needs to be changed/lengthened for 1 week every 5 years.  But I wonder if.. History aside.  It's the best place to host an Open Championship without the guarentee of inclement weather.  Because I'd rather watch any other open rota course, simply to see the players be challenged more.

Just some thoughts from a person who admittedly hasn't experienced true links golf..

[Link Walsh]

Give me the 18th hole at St. Andrews over the typical long slog of a hole designed to bring people to their knees.  At least with 18 at St. Andrews, everyone has the opportunity to score well- assuming you can pull the shots off.   I think the potential is there for some big drama, but unfortunately the last few Opens at St. Andrews haven't been close at all.  You'd have to go back to Seve's battle with Watson to see how much of an impact the hole can have.  I think it's the perfect compliment to the tough 17th, and a great exciting way to end a round.

 

[Andy Troeger]

As another one who hasn't been there, I am willing to assume that you probably have to actually visit TOC in order to really understand the strategy. There is obvious strategy on #17, and #12 with the gorse forces a decision whether to hit driver or not. The greens won't come through on a regular TV. I think the burn on the 1st is a great feature. Other holes like #9 and #18 look very basic, perhaps due to the wind direction. 18 would be more interesting if you couldn't reach it so easily, bringing in the bumps in front of the green.

I'd be curious how the bunkers affect everyday play--the pros seem to have very little trouble avoiding them, or perhaps that's just the ones on the leaderboard. I see balls bounding down fairways without a bunker in sight. You really can't get a sense for the blind shots or hidden hazards from TV--I'd be curious to "see" that in person. It sure seems like the course emphasizes lag putting with the huge greens--for better or worse.

In any case, my point is that I can certainly see how one could see TOC on television and not be impressed. It's like nothing most American golfers have ever seen. I could also see how its not everyone's cup of tea. I'd love to see it someday--I get the idea I'd appreciate it more.

[Greg Tallman]

I have never beed more seduced by a course in my life as I have been watching the shots played into and around the greens this week. Absolutely wonderful.

[Ben Sims]

Ken,

I do trust that you'll do the other forum right by us and post our comments for St. Andrews. 

[Tom_Doak]

No one has mentioned it on any of these threads, but 15-20 years ago, Jack Nicklaus DID try to imitate The Old Course with his second course at Grand Cypress in Florida.  After some initial hype, it's been ten years since I heard anyone mention it.

Of course, it was sort of a sanitized version of The Old Course, and with bermudagrass fairways you were never going to be able to play the same kinds of approach shots.

[Richard Choi]

Whenever I see debates like this, I just let it wash over me with following thought.

Fact is fact. The course has lasted hundreds of years with fervent following since it was created. That fact alone proves its ingenious design and endless entertainment value.

Fads come and go, differing opinions seduce different generations, but true genius and true work of art endures. TOC has already passed that test, no matter what these mis-guided erudites say.

[Greg Tallman]

No one has mentioned it on any of these threads, but 15-20 years ago, Jack Nicklaus DID try to imitate The Old Course with his second course at Grand Cypress in Florida.  After some initial hype, it's been ten years since I heard anyone mention it.

Of course, it was sort of a sanitized version of The Old Course, and with bermudagrass fairways you were never going to be able to play the same kinds of approach shots.

Imitating TOC in Orlando, Florida. 

[Adam Clayman]

Whoever said Americans are stupid? Hope is near;y al lost. Too many generations have grown up with the wrong road as their only map.

I know I'm ready to throw in the towel.

[John Moore II]

What do you say when you read comments like that.  Yet reading them again I have selected parts of each which I find explains the sorry state of the modern game. As Bill said its seems that none have played the course. Now if I had ever said anything like that regards American courses this site would be up in arms against me, yet the total ignorance of some of the American golfers seem to shine through.

It looks like the surface of the moon.....flat, boring and lot's of craters. No hills, no trees.....lots of hidden trouble and really disorienting.
Sorry but if there was a course in the US where you had to hit over a BUILDING to get into the fairway people would be endlessly mocking it.

The things you hate are endemic to pretty much all British links layouts. It's goofy golf compared to the way Americans play the game entirely through the air, but it does have some merits and it does test a players imagination and ability to judge different shots.

For me, St. Andrews is flat, boring, ugly and looks burnt out with rock hard fairways and I'd rather put 500 bucks toward my club membership than pay it to play there

 
Judge before you try the course. Oh really, practice what you preach

I look at TOC and I just see a great golf course. I love the bumps, bunkers the weather and the general appearance of the course. But then it should it’s my family home town, the back garden of my father’s home entrance was adjacent to Old Tom Shop leading onto the 18th Green, less than a minute to walk to the 1st Tee.

The first photo Note, he says photo, not real courseI saw of a super cultivated and manicured golf course made me wonder why anyone would want to play such an unnatural course. Nature seem to have been replaced by a chocolate box picture of what some artist thought was meant to be a golf course, it just look so wrong, how can any think of playing golf on such a courses. But alas I have grown use to seeing such courses and they no longer shock me although I still do wonder why one would want to play them – they generate no appeal, no come and try me sort of thing.

I have not changed my mind, give me a links course any day, give me TOC or New , something real that seems to reflect the game and its challenges.

Let’s not forget that in recent years it’s has taken two old timers. Norman and Watson to understand the nature of the game and out play the younger players when the weather was challenging. It’s make one ask the question have the modern players had it so easy on their manicured super Green well watered courses  that they can’t face the challenges of a wet and wind links courses. Their game only improving when the weather brightens.  Have they been over pampered and spoilt to the point that they can’t match the real old players unless the weather is near perfect. Well perhaps TOC will face some poor weather and thus again test the field.

TOC is a real Lady, she may not show you her delights first time but keep wooing her and the reward is there to enjoy. 

A man of The Links

Melvyn   

 Trees and super manicured courses are the real courses of today. Guys with attitudes like that make Golf look terminally sick. The only thing missing is their claim the have invented the game, but I expect Hollywood will soon resolve that  by making a film confirming Augusta was the birthplace of the game. Well the Russians tried to rewrite their history after 1917 and anything Russia can do America can do better.     And on that comment, don't worry about me ever responding to you again, unless you personally insult something meaningful to me

Yet in a free society we have freedom of thought, and we all have the right to our opinion. Anyway can you really take seriously the above comments knowing that they use carts because they are too lazy to walk, they have electronic and paper aids to help choose  a club and allow them to know where they are on a golf course. Christ I also believe that they do not park their own cars getting someone to park it and retrieve it for them. These people want to be taken seriously and talk about “evolving” yet  have they not just gone back to the time of having servants in both human and electronic form     

Thank God we have Links courses in this country which are the best way of playing Golf.


Your humble servant Well thats about the most wrong statement I've ever read. Perhaps it should read "Your arrogant master,

Melcyn

[Jeff_Brauer]

Hey, I dislike TOC....now. It looks too green and Americanized to my eye.

I have told this story before, but years ago my then young son's Sunday school teacher pulls me aside to tell me he had this crazy notion he was named after a golf course......

[Adam Clayman]

No one has mentioned it on any of these threads, but 15-20 years ago, Jack Nicklaus DID try to imitate The Old Course with his second course at Grand Cypress in Florida.  After some initial hype, it's been ten years since I heard anyone mention it.

Of course, it was sort of a sanitized version of The Old Course, and with bermudagrass fairways you were never going to be able to play the same kinds of approach shots.

When I mentioned it on here 5 years ago or so, I was shocked when I found out the date it was built. 1987. My initial thought was why Jack hadn't built anything even close to it since.

The routing suffers, but other than that, I thought the New was a great place to play bold contours and be creative.

Once in Farmington Nm. a woman had on an Old course sweatshirt. I asked her about it and she said she had spent some time in the grey toon  and and thought the course looked like a cow pasture.

I'm sure the old rugged Old course was better golf than than this manicured looking thing they presented this week.

[Melvyn Morrow]

John

You cannot be serious, I was referring to my experience around the time I started playing pre- teens to early teens and it was not until later that I encountered one upon my travels.

Please fall out with me by all means but do it on something substantial  not my childhood recollections of my first sight(yes photo) of a unnatural manicured course.

As for the rest I stand by what I have said, you decide how adult you want to be about the situation.

Melvyn 

[Matthew Rose]

No one has mentioned it on any of these threads, but 15-20 years ago, Jack Nicklaus DID try to imitate The Old Course with his second course at Grand Cypress in Florida.  After some initial hype, it's been ten years since I heard anyone mention it.

Of course, it was sort of a sanitized version of The Old Course, and with bermudagrass fairways you were never going to be able to play the same kinds of approach shots.

I've played this.

I had a very good time doing so, and I had fun playing this course on its own merits.

Obviously at no point did I feel like I was getting the authentic experience, but I did have fun.

[Bill Brightly]

Ken,

Did you responded to those guys on the other forum?

[Adam Clayman]

It sounds just like the world cup criticisms. Not hard to figure out they have no appreciation for the finer points.

[RSLivingston_III]

Personally, I would like to be there when any of the newbs tee off the 18th – to see how bad they wet themselves.

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