Thanks to The R&A will TOC see out her days as a Pitch and Putt Course?

[John Moore II]

I sometimes wonder if you guys really care about the game of Golf or is it just have some fun with Melvyn. But rest assured I will not leave it, I will fight, because its worth the effort.

Melvyn

Melvyn, you have a great ability to use certain facts for your cause. I guess you forget that Nicklaus and Doug Sanders drove that green in 1970, guys were driving that green regularly in 1990, 1995, 2000 and 2005? But that never crossed your mind because that was not right now. That courses hosts professional golfers not more than 2 weeks a year, one week most years. I think its fine as is.

[Tim Pitner]

I don't think 18 is the best standard by which to judge whether the ball needs to be rolled back.  It's been playing downwind this week and it's a short hole.  I recall Faldo in 1990 played that hole as a drive and flip.  It tends to play totally differently (longer) in the Dunhill event played in the fall. 

[Bill Brightly]

The fact remains that the USGA and the R & A have been lame, gutless observers while the ball and clubs have outpaced our golf courses. Some of us build Tiger tees and relocate bunkers, at great expense, all because the game's ruling bodies FAILED to do their job.

[Adam Clayman]

John Moore, Just because there were a few examples from decades ago, does not discount the fact that that nearly everyone can now do it.
The hole is the perfect gauge. The irony that it's right outside their front window is too delicious.

If ever there was a time to press the issue, it is right now.

Were there not reports on the eve of the championship that they were finally asking the right questions? And the answer they were getting is that the ball goes too far.


Melvyn, Just so you know. This DG has been at the forefront of this debate for a decade now. Most of the old participants are well aware of that, and while seemingly silent, are in your corner.

Of course I can't speak for how the architects feel, since they can be  the benefactors from course alterations.

[Eric_Terhorst]

Based on watching some of the action this week, I guess (without having played it) that the options for playing the 18th include he following:

1) Hit a big sweeping draw with a driver that flirts with OB but has a good chance of running up to the green.  A run-through brings trouble behind the flag into play.
2) Hit a driver straight at the green, and deal with the Valley of Sin if you come up short of or at rest in it.
3) Hit it a driver left, and try to get a pitch and run close.
4)  Hit it a driver left, and try to get a pitch and check close.
5) Lay up to 100 yards short and hit your comfortable 100 yard spinner.
6) Play a putter from anywhere after hitting your first shot wherever you like, with whatever club you like.
etc, etc, etc--the options seem to be infinite from my observation post in the peanut gallery.

Like every hole at St. Andrews, isn't it still a fascinating hole to watch the world's best players play--have the options on 18 really changed that much since Faldo won in 1990 (before today's ball was developed)?

[john_stiles]

Would agree with Bill B.

The technology (ball & equipment) plus possibly stronger golfers have affected many, many courses.

In the future,  the grandkids will tire of hitting driver 9 iron or wedge to every par 4 and move on to another course, or sport.  Just go watch any high school or college match.

Money spent on existing non-tour courses is much about adding tees, movings bunkers, moving greens in some cases, buying more land, watering and fertilizing more grounds.  And,  new courses are often greater than 7500 yards.

And for what ?    So some ball manufacturers can continue and never have to make adjustments.

Still maintain the ball is the method to reign back yardages.  Either by spin rates, gross weight, or some other method the 'experts' can formulate.

The manufacturers spend a lot of money on R&D and until R&D budget is zero,  the ball will continue to be improved.  Also wish the USGA club head speed for testing was higher.

The manufacturers spent on R&D, marketing, manufacturing, packaging, shipping, mark up for a profit, etc.   The retailers can sell a very reasonable ball (like TopFiltes Feel, etc. not much different in materials, etc. than Titleist) for less than  $1 a piece.

And new courses have to be built 7500 yards and old courses have to add new tees, move bunkers, etc. ?

The USGA doesn't manufacture anything, and they will be caught short again. 

None of the manufacturers, in my opinion, will share developments with the USGA. The manufacturers will continue, by R&D, to inch ahead and move forward. 

R&D is not all about making the white paint last longer or look whiter than white.



>>  In 1974, the big 1.68 ball was required for the Open.  Revisions in effect in 1990,  outlawed the 1.62 small ball altogether.

[Mike Benham]

Melvyn -

I hope you didn't just come to this realization after watching the past 3 days, the past two winners of The Open at TOC just plain over-powered the course ...

TOC has always been a Pitch and Putt Course, how can it not be with a cart path cutting through the middle of the 1st and 18th fairways ...

It's not just the R&A, it is also the USGA and the free enterprise system.

The USGA's office is in Far Hills New Jersey and I think you know where to write the R&A ...

Mike

Ps:  18 was downwind today ...

[David_Tepper]

Reading this thread makes me really wish that Tiger had holed his tee shot on Friday!

[Melvyn Morrow]

After reading comments like “Reading this thread makes me really wish that Tiger had holed his tee shot on Friday!” I seriously wonder if some on this site are really interested in golf or GCA.

Its OUR game that is being pushed to its limits, the option of doing nothing may mean that Green Fees will increase to pay for the constant modification (if the land permits) to our old curses and the building of longer ones.

Is it more important to try and score points against each other than to protect the game we all say we love. History has shown us time after time that the meek will not inherit a bloody thing, and silence plays into the hands of the bully.

In the end its down to the individual to make up their mind, but I believe that sooner rather than later the Governing Body will have to accept the facts in front of their face and then take some fast serious action that may be stronger than currently being suggested.

Melvyn

[Scott Warren]

Melvyn,

Other than posting your lament on GCA, what steps have you taken through official channels to effect positive change?

[Martin Toal]

The answer obviously is to get Pete Dye in to make 7 or 8 island greens, including the 18th at TOC. Lets see these players drive it then!

And the Road Hole could become a par 4.5 version of the 17th at Sawgrass, with the road replaced by a river which encircles the hole, complete with alligators, and some of those who make the carry would still land in the bunker.

[Mike_Clayton]

Scott,

I am not sure what Melvyn can do. They have steadfastly refused to listen to what Jack Nicklaus and other great champions have been saying for years now.
Until there is a specific ball for first-class ball we will continue to play two games - the professional game that renders almost every great old course obsolete - and the game the rest of us play.
And The Old Course will need to continue to need back tees.Unfortunately courses like Royal Melbourne have so little room to move tees back.
Perhaps if The Old Course was restricted the way so many others are by land constraints they would be more vigilant.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Scott

“Other than posting your lament on GCA, what steps have you taken through official channels to effect positive change?”

First of all who said I have taken any steps, I thought I was commenting on a DG re my concerns to see if other cared.

Clearly you are just a player interested in self and with playing  your game, you have little interest (it would appear) in the future of the game as long as it does not encroach upon your pleasures.

Perhaps if you had stated your interest and concern I might have indulged you, but starting off with “Other than posting your lament on GCA, I feel we are back at stage 1.

Go and enjoy your golf and let those who care about the Game discuss the situation and what if any we can do about it.

Melvyn

[Andrew Summerell]

Scott

“Other than posting your lament on GCA, what steps have you taken through official channels to effect positive change?”

First of all who said I have taken any steps, I thought I was commenting on a DG re my concerns to see if other cared.

Clearly you are just a player interested in self and with playing  your game, you have little interest (it would appear) in the future of the game as long as it does not encroach upon your pleasures.

Perhaps if you had stated your interest and concern I might have indulged you, but starting off with “Other than posting your lament on GCA, I feel we are back at stage 1.

Go and enjoy your golf and let those who care about the Game discuss the situation and what if any we can do about it.

Melvyn

I actually was interested in whether you had taken any official steps, as it might have been something others (including myself) could have gotten involved in.

[Adam Clayman]

Mike Clayton. To your knowledge has anyone ever suggested Austrailia start it's own ruling body? From having read so much on here about golf down under, I've concluded ya'll get it more than most. Get it meaning valuing the sportsmanship inherent in this game.  

[Mark Chaplin]

I advocate a man with a red flag walking in front of cars and spending 8 weeks sailing to Australia.

Seriously the ball could be rolled back but technology, health and fitness will continue to improve golfing performance. Didn't Nicklaus drive through 18 some 30 odd years ago? I think TOC has stood up pretty well to the worlds best this week.

[Brent Carlson]

Fitness is not the key issue.  I believe Nicklaus' clubhead speed was even then faster than almost all today.  It has to be the ball.  How did I take 5 years off from the game, and gain 25 yards upon return?  The only change was ProV1x.

The governing bodies will do as they wish, but the interest of the game is lower playing 9 iron and under into par fours.

[John Moore II]

Other than Oosthuizen at -17, the best player in the field is -8. I don't think thats bad.  Looking back at 2005, Tiger was -14, one person at -9, two at -8 and 6 at -7, the rest were -6 or higher. In 2000, Tiger was -19, only 4 others were better than -10, and the weather was perfect that whole week. Go back to 1995 and -6 won. 1990 had 7 players at -10 or better. Not exactly the scores you would expect for a pitch-and-putt.

Oh wait, Westwood just got it to -9. Either way, other than Oost, no one is exactly lighting it up out here. I think this course is holding up very, very well to the best in the world. Seems to me if it was really some kind of pitch-and-putt course guys would be all shooting in the 60's every day. With the hazards made the way they are, this course is plenty challenging for anyone who plays.

[Mike_Clayton]

Adam,
No one has ever suggested an Australian organization that really controlled the game down there.
What is frustrating to many in Australia is that our best old courses have been affected as much an any in the world by modern equipment and many who love the game and the courses are concerned about the state of things - and frustrated that those with the power to change things won't.
When Peter Dawson spoke at a dinner there a few years ago it was the first question he was asked.
Perhaps those with the power don't care - but Australia is almost unique in that we have always played our biggest professional events on our best old courses - and people in Australia do really care when they see how they play now compared with twenty and thirty years ago.

[Peter Pallotta]

I don't know why so many posters feel so free to lambast Melvyn for his opinions. Dozens of us have our own 'pet peeves' that we trot out time and time again (and rarely does anyone mock us for it); and dozens of us have raised the 'need' to move back tees on certain holes on certain beloved courses (e,g. NGLA), and while there are disagreements there is rarely such contempt shown. I don't know why so many can't seem to get past the way Melvyn expresses himself (that's just the surface, and who cares about that) and look instead at the heart of what he's saying. All that said, Melvyn, I think picking the 18th re this question is misguided: for me, one of the real joys of watching the play this year is that two Par 4s, back to back, can play so differently: the 17th so hard and the 18th so easy.  Of all the charming aspects of TOC, the 'relative nature of par' there seems one of the very best.

Peter   

[John Moore II]

Peter-We show contempt towards Melvyn because he generally shows a general contempt and dislike for anything and everything relating to golf that is not based in Scotland. Anything American about golf he dislikes and is vocal and disrespectful about it. He milks the fact that is is related to the Morris's of Scotland, even though he is 5 generations removed from Old Tom. He is a generally disagreeable person and that is why he is treated the way he is.

[Scott Warren]

Scott,

I am not sure what Melvyn can do. They have steadfastly refused to listen to what Jack Nicklaus and other great champions have been saying for years now.

They definately have their fingers in their ears, chanting "la, la, la, I can't hear you". But what's the alternative? Give up?

Perhaps it would require a tweaking of his "style" (that whole, "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" thing), but Melvyn obviously has both the passion and persistence to keep at it, as he has demonstrated on here.

It might be futile, but what else can you do but keep trying?

PeterP: I think Melvyn gets back a lot of the same dismissive attitude he directs at others. It's human nature that when someone is framing their words - however valid - in aggression the audience is less likely to be receptive. That's not to condone some of the things that get lobbed his way, but it's not wholely surprising that some people fight fire with fire.

And whilever he shows such a comprehensive lack of acceptance of others' ways, I think, unfortunately, it's bound to continue.

[PCCraig]

This is a whole lot to do about nothing.

I thought it was a great tournament. Sure "Shrek" shot -17...but it played out of his mind for 4 days and 100% deserved to win. Seems like a great guy and family man too. The rest of the field was right around -10, which I think is a perfect winning score. There was a ton of strategy and interest in many of the players shots and the course played perfectly.

18...which is far more interesting as a par 3 1/2 played great and was a perfect ending to a round where the players had a shot at an eagle or birdie downwind. If the hole had been into the wind it would of been less interesting IMO.

What is there to complain about??  

The ball or technology is not going to be "rolled back." Period. However I do think the USGA and R&A have done decent jobs in the past decade in maintaining technology (esp. COR in drivers). I just read one of the golf magazines which had a chart saying that driving distance has remained level over the past 10 years as well...statistical proof which shows there is no problem.

Me thinks this has less to do with an issue with "the future of the game" and technology as it does some sort of personal vandetta against the R&A. I can't say I understand or know the whole story, but the gentlemen on the 18th green today didn't look too worried about it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

MHM,

To me, It would appear that the only entity that can effect a roll-back is ANGC and The Masters.

I don't see the USGA or R&A being the first to institute a roll-back for a variety of reasons.

I'm one of those that don't think that distance has been maxed out.

R&D on shafts hasn't been discontinued, nor has the R&D on the ball covering.
As long as there's an unregulated aspect/component of the golf club, R&D will continue until better performing products are produced, that's how you sell your product, by improving it.

Does anyone know what the Ohio Golf Assoc concluded with respect to their experiment with a competition ball ?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Pat,

I just found this on the "one ball" test by Ohio GA:

http://thesandtrap.com/swing_thoughts/one_ball_to_rule_them_all

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