"You'd be crucified...

[Steve Kline]

...for a building a course like this today." I can't count how many times I've heard the announcers/pros say this in reference to TOC. Really? What about Old MacDonald or Ballyneal? Comments like these just go to show how those of us on this site really are in our own little world.

[John Moore II]

...for a building a course like this today." I can't count how many times I've heard the announcers/pros say this in reference to TOC. Really? What about Old MacDonald or Ballyneal? Comments like these just go to show how those of us on this site really are in our own little world.

Are Ballyneal or Old MacDonald routed in a fish hook shape with 6 double greens, 7 shared fairways/sets of parallel holes and a public road and a hotel in play? Just asking...

[Tom_Doak]

Steve:

I've been hearing the same things you have.  There was a little segment at one point yesterday where everyone from Westwood to Tiger basically implied the course was crazy and not good architecture.

[Even Peter Alliss said there is nothing like real links golf in the States.  I think I'll invite him to Bandon.]


John K:

I think they are talking about more than the shared fairways and greens and the Road Hole, and you know it.

[Ronald Montesano]

I think that they are talking about
a) the absence of cart paths;
b) the lack of a beverage cart (ohh, ginger beer!);
c) the deficiency of a halfway house;
d) the truancy of toilets that have no purple and yellow flowers and won't prick your tallywhacker;
e) the privation of you-know-you-want-to-steal-'em tee markers;
f) the drought of adjoining homes (save the 18th fairway, which Victor Dubuisson somehow missed on Friday) and
g) the void of fish tacos and gazpacho!!!!!!

[Donnie Beck]

...

[Don_Mahaffey]

 Wolf Point has shared fwys and a double green, fall away greens, hidden center line bunkers, and both Mike Nuzzo and I wanted WP to play like TOC. Obviously, there are a ton of differences in soil, climate, appearance, and the architecture itself, but we did a good job of doing what we set out to do.

I have guests out all the time, local guys who aren't students of golf course architecture. I'm telling you they love WP. And I think a course like WP, with a few changes for the realities of public golf, would go over great. Everyone thinks golfers only want all the crap we complain about here, lush grass, waterfalls, goodies, and all the rest of that BS. Yup, if that's what your selling of course you’re going to say that's what they want. But golfers also love to play "real" golf and maybe they just don't realize it until they experience it. I'm sure the crowd that says you need free sodas, beer, and fish tacos on every tee would have said Bandon had no chance when the idea first came out. They missed on that one and they'll miss when someone has the guts to build a WP type course for public play.

[Charlie Goerges]

Then Don, you and Mike better be on the lookout for an angry mob here anytime soon.

[Bryan Icenhower]

isn't this statement true in regards to liability?

[Donnie Beck]

isn't this statement true in regards to liability?

Indeed.... but I took the above picture earlier this morning and it seemed like as good of thread as any to prove links golf does exist on this side of the pond.

[Tom_Doak]

Bryan:

Yes, you are right about that.  There are several things on The Old Course which would get a modern designer or course owner sued.  I'm not even sure we could get away with the first and eighteenth fairways together, as wide as they are.

[One interesting point about that is that the fact the holes are short really helps the safety situation.  The players on 1 & 18 aren't driving to the same part of the fairway ... players on 18 just have to worry about players walking down off the first tee, and vice versa.]

But, I don't think that's what the guys on TV have been saying.  They're not saying you'd be SUED for building holes that close together.  They're saying you'd be crucified for building features like those on a new course.  Which I believe is really sad.

[Mike Cirba]

These guys don't get out much, do they?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Don,

You can get away with all that stuff (or a TOC replica) if you are doing a one man course.  Hard to hit another player if there is only one group a day!

[Tom_Doak]

These guys don't get out much, do they?

Mike:

No, they don't.  None of them have ever been to Bandon, as far as I know.

Way too many of the players only go to the courses they play in competition, and of course the ones they are designing themselves.

[Donnie Beck]

But golfers also love to play "real" golf and maybe they just don't realize it until they experience it. I'm sure the crowd that says you need free sodas, beer, and fish tacos on every tee would have said Bandon had no chance when the idea first came out. They missed on that one and they'll miss when someone has the guts to build a WP type course for public play.

Don I think you are correct … There is a definite need for good affordable public.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Don,

You can get away with all that stuff (or a TOC replica) if you are doing a one man course.  Hard to hit another player if there is only one group a day!

Jeff, read my post again. I said with a few changes for the realities of public golf.
But, what you really need to do is come visit WP before you assume to much.

Like Tom is saying, the liability issues can be overcome, its the features and the way the course plays that make some, like yourself I guess, say you'd be crucified. You can build a course like WP and meet all the ADA and other issues experts like you love to talk about when building a course. All that stuff can be overcome and sustainable golf courses can be developed that play like TOC or WP, wide, hidden hazards, penal bunkers (you don't need as many of them if they exact a more serious penalty) interesting greens, less definition with fewer mower cuts...

 I sure don’t see many golf courses being built. Is it such a bad idea to study a course that cost less than 3M to build, can be cared for with 4 guys, (you’d need about double that if it were a busy public) is a blast to play…and didn’t require expensive “special” land?
You think if we can find a way to build good golf courses that are fun to play, on average land,  maintainable for ½ of what is usually spent, we might get a few more dreamers to turn their dreams into sustainable reality. 

[George Pazin]

Is it such a bad idea to study a course that cost less than 3M to build, can be cared for with 4 guys, (you’d need about double that if it were a busy public) is a blast to play…and didn’t require expensive “special” land?
You think if we can find a way to build good golf courses that are fun to play, on average land,  maintainable for ½ of what is usually spent, we might get a few more dreamers to turn their dreams into sustainable reality. 

Nope, it's a tremendous idea. Hope we see more like this, or Donnie's idea.

[Anthony_Nysse]

The Tribute Golf Club in north Dallas has replicas holes. #1, #18 are of TOC and are spitting images, with a huge, shared fairway. #17 is also The Road Hole.

[Ben Sims]

 I sure don’t see many golf courses being built. Is it such a bad idea to study a course that cost less than 3M to build, can be cared for with 4 guys, (you’d need about double that if it were a busy public) is a blast to play…and didn’t require expensive “special” land?
You think if we can find a way to build good golf courses that are fun to play, on average land,  maintainable for ½ of what is usually spent, we might get a few more dreamers to turn their dreams into sustainable reality. 

Don my man!  During my first round out at Wolf Point (while you were off barbequing lamb or hiding under trees or something), Mike and I were walking past Infierno when I asked him, "So how much of the this is really publicly viable?"  In what must be a typical Mike Nuzzo reaction, he said in a confident yet monotone voice, "Oh, about 98%", and then chcuckled to himself. 

He then spent a few minutes explaining what few things would need changing for WP to be a "public" idea.  I was flabbergasted at just how much of that course's ideas could be put into a public model. 

[George Pazin]

Ben, hopefully Mike will share that one day.

I posted last week on one of the Oakmont threads that, while many pay lip service to her, most of the lessons of The Old Course are lost on architects, builders, writers, golfers, etc. Clearly those lessons were NOT lost on Mike and Don, among others.

[John Moore II]

John K:

I think they are talking about more than the shared fairways and greens and the Road Hole, and you know it.

Actually, no I don't know. I was asking an honest question. Ballyneal appears from the aerial view to be routed in something of a figure 8 returning to the clubhouse twice. And I have seen no aerial of Old Macdonald. I have played courses that had double greens and have played courses that had parallel fairways. But how many courses have ever been made where basically every hole runs parallel to another one right beside it? Or where there are 6 shared greens? But the truth of the matter is, if you built a course today that was even 75% routed and laid out like TOC you'd be looked upon as a fool, IMO.

[Peter Pallotta]

It seems like the same old story for golf announcers, i.e. if their favourite players aren't bunched together at the top of a leaderboard, they strain to give the average fan a reason why. This whole line of thinking about the golf course as the reason is as idotic as any other they tend to give.  But what also seems true is that the criteria for what constitutes an ideal field of play (and championship test) has changed so dramatically over the last few decades that a modern day TOC would suffer the worst of all possible fates -- it would be deemed a curiosity piece, and a novelty act.

Peter   

[Bryan Icenhower]

Interesting how the mind works ... As I was watching this segment, in my mind I was thinking what a shame it is that the hole couldn't be built today due to the liability issues, so immediately my mind jumped to that as the reason Curtis dropped the crucified comment.

Juxtapose that to the architecture segment they ran - I was excited by the lead-in tease that mentioned how many of TOC features have been replicated, specifically mentioning principal's nose, etc.  I was ready for an interesting feature that would explain to the average golf fan how the features they see at their home course have their origin at TOC.  Instead, Weisikopf only mentions how you see these features at Augusta, Oakmont, Pebble, etc.  It was an opportunity lost by ESPN/ABC to connect what average golfer sees at his local course with the home of golf.

Realizing Curtis' comment was probably not in regards to liability but rather architecture is probably indeed the correct assumption based on the architecture segment  Indeed, they need to get out.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Just a small story about an old course here in Germany, founded in 1906 (Kitzeberg in Kiel). They always had a nice, old-fashioned par 3, where you would shoot over a public road - I myself played that hole a few years ago. Well, one century of sensible play by sensible golfers was blown away by one idiot. He didn't pay attention, hit a passing car and then, instead of de-escalating the situation and telling the driver that the club has an insurance to cover his repairs, he proceeds to blast the driver for not looking out for golfers.

Needless to say, the driver was pissed, sued the club and the hole had to be scrapped.

Ulrich

[David Lott]

Crucifixion is (blessedly) largely out of date. Shoddy thinking and mindless exaggeration are staples of the species, however.

[Sean_A]

Folks, this isn't anywhere near debatable.  There isn't an archie alive who would build a "St Andrews" so there is no point in balking.  To top it off, TOC is a championship course which doubly presses the point home. 

Ciao

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