Top 5 indicators of a quality golf facility

[Greg Tallman]

Greg,
I barely know anything about anything, but I have it on excellent authority that the Fish Tacos were awesome. I'm excited to try them. Oh, and I might bring my clubs.

I'm playing a fancy Doak track tomorrow - and I'm going to be furious if I don't get a Slurpee at hole #6, and a seared pork belly sammitch between 13 green and 14 tee.

Served by the architect himself while giving advice on how to play the "signature" hole or the place is a dump.

[Garland Bayley]

You sir need to check yourself. For the record I grew up on one of the lowest end courses in as depressed an area as you care to imagine. Those folks use much the same formula to determine what is "great golf". The others you reference and obviously hold so much disdain for have taken it to a different level.

What is so hard to understand? Especially in this forumsn where the VAST MINORITY gather to discuss what is really at the heart of great golf which is the architecture and design characteristics of some of the great classics and modern wonders.

If my post is so "out there" just pop on over to your local muni and strike up a conversation about the great architectural wonders and subtle nuiances that make them special for you mustn't need GCA for that. 

Check myself for what? Trying to get you to check yourself so that you make an honest post?

Go back and edit your first post to say "It is my opinion, formed from being in the business that ...".

Until you clearly label what you are posting is an opinion, I will say nonsense. Once you label it clearly as opinion, I will say I disagree.

Either that or go and do a rigorous statistical survey of a truly random sample of golfers and post your results.

[Greg Tallman]

You sir need to check yourself. For the record I grew up on one of the lowest end courses in as depressed an area as you care to imagine. Those folks use much the same formula to determine what is "great golf". The others you reference and obviously hold so much disdain for have taken it to a different level.

What is so hard to understand? Especially in this forumsn where the VAST MINORITY gather to discuss what is really at the heart of great golf which is the architecture and design characteristics of some of the great classics and modern wonders.

If my post is so "out there" just pop on over to your local muni and strike up a conversation about the great architectural wonders and subtle nuiances that make them special for you mustn't need GCA for that. 

Check myself for what? Trying to get you to check yourself so that you make an honest post?

Go back and edit your first post to say "It is my opinion, formed from being in the business that ...".

Until you clearly label what you are posting is an opinion, I will say nonsense. Once you label it clearly as opinion, I will say I disagree.

Either that or go and do a rigorous statistical survey of a truly random sample of golfers and post your results.

Garland,

If having spent virtually every day of the past 35 years on or at golf facilities ranging from the lowest of the low to the most exclusive private to the middle of the road public track to the highest end resort does not qualify one ot develop and share such a view then perhpas we should all bury our heads in the sand and keep to ourselves.

One of even moderate intelligence would take the opening post for what it is which is one guy's view of the state of the game rather than spin it into a veiled attempt to brainwash members of a discussion group.

My gracious... now where is that tequila?

[Richard Choi]

Greg isn't this pretty much a fact of life for everything?

The majority of restaurant goers are not going to enjoy El Bulli and its advanced gastronomy dishes.

The majority of movie goers have not even heard of Citizen Kane.

The majority of music lovers have not heard Beethoven's 9th Symphony in its entirety.

The majority of art lovers prefer Monet and its pretty colors that goes well with their furniture.

Why would it be different for golf?

[Garland Bayley]

Is this a theory or conclusions drawn from some sort of survey?

Michael,

Are you going to let Greg get away with casting aspersions on your intelligence?

...
One of even moderate intelligence would take the opening post for what it is which is one guy's view of the state of the game ...

[Jim_Kennedy]

I don't think Greg is identifying the 'typical' golf consumer, just the 'typical' golf consumer that frequents courses that charge upwards of $200.00 per go.

[Garland Bayley]

1. Fast greens - 12 or better
2. Lush green grass... everywhere
3. Unrelenting, long hard setup
4. 10-20 million dollar clubhouse
5. Comfort stations stocked with "goodies"

...

Although I don't understand your reticence for labeling this an opinion piece, I will say I disagree with 1 and 3 at least for the retirement crowd.

#5 certainly has no draw for me, but I can't say I am average.

And Richard, the last thing I want to see on a golf course is a cart girl. They are an impediment to play, and they create far too many dangerous situations.

[Jimmy Chandler]

3. Unrelenting, long hard setup

Once again I find a predisposition of the people on this site to way overstate the general ability of the average golfer and/or their desire for difficult golf courses. There is no way 80-90% of golfers want an "unrelenting, long hard setup," not even golfers willing to pay $100+ per round.

The average golfer's drive goes less than 200 yards, three putts several times per round, and cannot make a sand save more than 25% of the time. These same golfers find almost any course difficult, because they can't make a reliable golf swing.

For example, just because Steve Kline finds Ballyneal easy does not make him a typical case (not to pick on Steve). Most of the people I played with at the Yucca found Ballyneal plenty difficult -- and as a group we were way better than the average golfer (note I was on the low end of the ability scale, as reflected in my D flight placement).

[Jimmy Chandler]

Greg isn't this pretty much a fact of life for everything?

The majority of restaurant goers are not going to enjoy El Bulli and its advanced gastronomy dishes.

The majority of movie goers have not even heard of Citizen Kane.

The majority of music lovers have not heard Beethoven's 9th Symphony in its entirety.

The majority of art lovers prefer Monet and its pretty colors that goes well with their furniture.

Why would it be different for golf?

On the other hand...

El Bulli is an almost impossible reservation due to the overwhelming number of requests.

Most people who have studied film at all have seen Citizen Kane.

Almost anyone who is a classical music lover has heard Beethoven's Ninth in its entirety, though not necessarily live.  (I don't think I mentioned this weekend that I recently saw the NY Philharmonic at Lincoln Center perform Missa Solemis -- amazing.)

I like Monet's pretty colors... :-)

Not that any of this is relevant or on topic, just food for thought.

[Greg Tallman]

Although I don't understand your reticence for labeling this an opinion piece, I will say I disagree with 1 and 3 at least for the retirement crowd.
No reticence, simply saying the opinion (formed from years of experience) is obvious and thus did not really need to be called out. As for the retirement crowd I'll agree with 3 but not necessarily 1

#5 certainly has no draw for me, but I can't say I am average.
I can take it or leave it but you might be shocked at what people talk about as impressive after visiting a particular course... but it what was offered or what was lacikng

And Richard, the last thing I want to see on a golf course is a cart girl. They are an impediment to play, and they create far too many dangerous situations.
Like the cart girl at a Vegas course who came screaming around a turn and crashed head on into our cart. (I only rode because it was the policy  . She sure was cute though.  

[Bill Brightly]

Greg,

I don't disagree with your basic points (except for the unrelenting challenge.) Basically, I say it is sad that you are right, especially golfers who say a good green is one the stimps at 12...

But I love a challenge, I and have this crazy dream that we can change enough people's mind to change this state of affairs... because the sport is not sustainable as is.

[Ronald Montesano]

A.  Where are the fish tacos and the gazpacho?  Ireland?  Scandinavia?  Congo?  Why won't anyone tell me?

B.  Unrelentingly long does not mean we actually played those tees.  Just give us the scorecard, so we can brag about it.

C.  My favorite cart girl was a heft, salty woman of some acreage at Boyne Mountain in Michigan.  When questioned about the $5 Miller Lite, she replied "What the hell do you want, it's Boyne?"  She was sympathetic to the overage and we bought the beers with an enormous smile.

D.  In the end, what percentage of golfers are we?  By we, I mean disposed to walk, lovers of all hues of grass and firmnesses of turf, not enamored of perquisites (free crap), partisans of earthen waves.

[Bruce Wellmon]

That said if I were to remove the "comlimentary tacos" at the turn it would cause a revolution.

Greg, I'm begging you. Don't get rid of the tacos.

[Tom_Doak]

Ronald:

The fish tacos are a staple of Cabo del Sol.

The gazpacho was at the tenth tee of Vaquero GC, the Discovery-developed private club in Dallas.  At least I think it was gazpacho ... I didn't actually have any.

[Charlie Goerges]

I think a new term has entered the GCA Lexicon today:


Tacos & Gazpacho

or T&G for short

[Charlie Goerges]

Now, use it in a sentence, I'll go first:

The T&G crowd were howling because the clubhouse was out of jalapeno honey butter.

[Peter Pallotta]

Charlie - It doesn't matter what the gazpacho looks like, only where it's positioned on the plate, so as to maximize the chef's culinary intent. The last thing we need is more eye-candy gazpacho.  For example, I heard that Chef Fazio once spent $2.5 million just on the gazpacho, but then served it as a side-dish !!  (I think it was on a course called Ensombreza Riachuelo, in South America.) Can you believe it?  Ah, but what the hell - if that's what the average retail eater wants to have for dinner, and if he's willing to pay $200 for it, might as well serve it up to him nice and neat along with a bottle of crisp white wine and some lemon gelato for dessert.

Peter

[Greg Tallman]

That said if I were to remove the "comlimentary tacos" at the turn it would cause a revolution.

Greg, I'm begging you. Don't get rid of the tacos.

If I do I will not be around for your visit should you make it down next spring.

[Garland Bayley]

Although I don't understand your reticence for labeling this an opinion piece, I will say I disagree with 1 and 3 at least for the retirement crowd.
No reticence, simply saying the opinion (formed from years of experience) is obvious and thus did not really need to be called out. As for the retirement crowd I'll agree with 3 but not necessarily 1
...

Come on Greg. You can agree to 1. It is my opinion that 80-90% of all golfers have no idea what a Stimp of 12 is like which makes it hard to believe that anyone could think that retirees are remotely interested in it.

[Greg Tallman]

Ronald:

The fish tacos are a staple of Cabo del Sol.

The gazpacho was at the tenth tee of Vaquero GC, the Discovery-developed private club in Dallas.  At least I think it was gazpacho ... I didn't actually have any.

The gazpacho has evolved into black bean soup on holes 3 and 6 and tamales on holes 11 and 14 at Diamante, not a Discovery property but that is with whom the tricks of the trade were learned by their jefe. I do not generally have the soup or tamales but must confess the jar of chocolate covered raisins was a bit smallish for me.  

[Bill_McBride]

1. Fast greens - 12 or better
2. Lush green grass... everywhere
3. Unrelenting, long hard setup
4. 10-20 million dollar clubhouse
5. Comfort stations stocked with "goodies"
Honrable Mention/5A. - Waterfalls


Like it or not folks that is the typical golf consumer. Probably 80-90% of those that play golf judge whether or not a facility is a quality facility and worth the money.

Right or wrong, good or bad, Trump or Doak... It is what it is and it is not going to change.

What a bunch of made up nonsense.
 

If only it were!

[Charlie Goerges]

Charlie - It doesn't matter what the gazpacho looks like, only where it's positioned on the plate, so as to maximize the chef's culinary intent. The last thing we need is more eye-candy gazpacho.  For example, I heard that Chef Fazio once spent $2.5 million just on the gazpacho, but then served it as a side-dish !!  (I think it was on a course called Ensombreza Riachuelo, in South America.) Can you believe it?  Ah, but what the hell - if that's what the average retail eater wants to have for dinner, and if he's willing to pay $200 for it, might as well serve it up to him nice and neat along with a bottle of crisp white wine and some lemon gelato for dessert.

Peter

Peter, I thought the gazpacho nicely set-off (framed if you will) the rest of the meal. So much so that even if you never even tasted the gazpacho, it made the whole experience more enjoyable.

[Peter Pallotta]

(Tee hee)

Charlie - well, we obviously see things a lot differently. But let me ask you: how many Chef Fazio meals have you actually eaten? No offense, but if you've only had his tacos and gazpacho once, you can't really comment on how often his framing (your word, not mine) adds nothing to the meal. And before you ask, I've eaten Fazio meals in 24 states and 3 countries.  And, excuse me, but you can't know good T&G until you've experienced Bill Coore's creations. IMHO, it's not a coincidence that he usually walks around a bowl of gazpacho for six months before finalizing its placement. But listen, I don't want argue with you - if you thought Chef Fazio did a good job, you're entitled to your opinion.     

Peter

[Steve Burrows]

How many threads on this site really have to be some jab at those who are not "enlightened" by an understanding of golf course design?  There is a pervasive mentality here which insinuates that there are "right" and "wrong" forms of golf, and that those which do not conform to the group think of a relatively small group of people (the 1500 registered to GolfClubAtlas) are inferior, and therefore, not to be tolerated, even scoffed at (though I will admit that I am only interpreting the tone of these posts, which is dangerous for an on-line forum).  Of course I also recognize the cost savings to individual courses, and potentially to the entire industry, through the elimination of the practices mentioned in the 5 Indicators stated in the original post, but to so overtly dismiss the preferences of a such large number of people who play the game, if the numbers stated are accurate, or to dismiss the business model of Fazio or anyone else to whom these attributes are so clearly in reference, smells more of arrogance than it does of knowledge.

Golf courses are big and small, long and short, and any number of other dichotomous relationships, but in my mind, there is no such thing as an objectively good golf course.  There is only subjectivity. 

[Charlie Goerges]

Steve Burrows:


No soup for you!!!!

 

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