Top 5 indicators of a quality golf facility

[Anthony Gray]

Is this a theory or conclusions drawn from some sort of survey?

A couple of decades in the high end of the business, logic, the fact that the grill room does not sound like GCA... etc.

Like I said a bunch of made up nonsense. You sit in a high end resort, listen to people there sound off, and come to the conclusion, "Like it or not folks that is the typical golf consumer. Probably 80-90% of those that play golf judge whether or not a facility is a quality facility and worth the money." Which suggests to me that you got a worse grade in English Comp 101 that I did (perish the thought).

This thread is complete balderdash. Peddle it somewhere else please.

  Garland...I'm going to tell that your round at Chambers Bay was comped.

   Anthony

[Anthony Gray]

Thank God Mike Keiser had the cash, courage and conviction to build Bandon Dunes. I think Ireland and Bandon will out perform Cabo, etal, as golfing destinations in the long run. I've played them all and would never go back to Cabo. Personally, I think the word is spreading.

  Bill...Diamante is world class and worth the trip to Cabo alone. One of the best golfing experiences I've had.That course has little of everything and I hope it gets more press.Also if you do go back do not go downtown with Greg.

  Anthony

[Greg Tallman]

One can simply not compare a Cabo to Ireland or Bandon.  There are different attractions to each and I would think that the percentage of tourists visiting Cabo or Ireland that are there for a strictly golf vacation are few.  Bandon offers golf.  Ireland & Cabo offer much much more.  The last few times I've been to Cabo, I think I only played a couple of rounds a week.

BTW Greg, those tacos at Cabo Del Sol are a nice touch, but I doubt your bookings would be impacted if you eliminated them.

I honestly think you would be surprised. It never ceases to amaze me when I meet a person who has played the course how many times they get around to mentioning the Tacos. The cost is relatively high but it has become an institution. I have given up on my crusade to remove the tacos. The only alternative would be to offer them at an additional charge and I am not going there anytime soon. That is for certain.

[Greg Tallman]

Thank God Mike Keiser had the cash, courage and conviction to build Bandon Dunes. I think Ireland and Bandon will out perform Cabo, etal, as golfing destinations in the long run. I've played them all and would never go back to Cabo. Personally, I think the word is spreading.

  Bill...Diamante is world class and worth the trip to Cabo alone. One of the best golfing experiences I've had.That course has little of everything and I hope it gets more press.Also if you do go back do not go downtown with Greg.

  Anthony

You keep selling my place short and you will not have to worry about going downtown with Greg anymore!  Champagne anyone?

[Bill Brightly]

This is not golf related...but here is probably the REAL reason that I crossed Cabo off my "places I need to return to list" :

We stayed at the Hacienda Del Mar (Sheraton.) After a full day battle getting 3 kids ages 8 to 13 from NYC to Houston to Cabo and then a taxi to the hotel, we checked in exhausted at about 10 PM...The adjoining rooms we were promised (one with king bed and one with two double beds) were not exactly adjoining...One was on the 4th floor in the front of the building and the other was on the second floor in the back...And they each had one king bed...I argued a little, but the manager no hable English...and I was exhausted so I assumed they would fix things in the morning. (Wrong!)

Now if you think my wife stayed with me in one of the kings while her three little darlings stayed in the other room on the other side of the hotel in a foreign country...you are not married with children...And the situation was NOT rectified at any point during our week-long stay, and Sheraton refused to do anything for me after we returned to the US.

I can guarantee that something like this would NEVER happen at Bandon and I believe that most US hotels would have also resolved the problem for me.  So I vote with my feet and my wallet and spend my vacation dollars where I feel most comfortable.  

[Anthony Gray]

Thank God Mike Keiser had the cash, courage and conviction to build Bandon Dunes. I think Ireland and Bandon will out perform Cabo, etal, as golfing destinations in the long run. I've played them all and would never go back to Cabo. Personally, I think the word is spreading.

  Bill...Diamante is world class and worth the trip to Cabo alone. One of the best golfing experiences I've had.That course has little of everything and I hope it gets more press.Also if you do go back do not go downtown with Greg.

  Anthony

You keep selling my place short and you will not have to worry about going downtown with Greg anymore!  Champagne anyone?

  Sorry Greg.I thought the greatness of Los Cabos is understood and a given. I just mention Diamante because people need to know there is alot of great golf in Cabo.Not selling your place short at all.The hot tub overlooking the beach is better than the fish tacos,not even close.The duck quisadillas are even better.What other cities have the combination of great golf like Cabo. 17 mile drive,St Andrews and Bandon.Pinehurst isn't even close to Cabo for experience and quality of golf.See you soon you unlucky soul.

  Anthony

[Sean Leary]

Is Cabo Del Sol the best "desert" course ever built? Certainly in the conversation, if it isn't. That in itself makes it a must play , IMO....

[George Pazin]

1. Fast greens - 12 or better
2. Lush green grass... everywhere
3. Unrelenting, long hard setup
4. 10-20 million dollar clubhouse
5. Comfort stations stocked with "goodies"
Honrable Mention/5A. - Waterfalls


Like it or not folks that is the typical golf consumer. Probably 80-90% of those that play golf judge whether or not a facility is a quality facility and worth the money.

Right or wrong, good or bad, Trump or Doak... It is what it is and it is not going to change.

So is Bandon a fluke? The exception that proves the rules?

No arguments about your indicators, I just wonder if it's simply because that's what's generally available. I will say, Nemacolin Woodlands has everything you list and more, and I can't believe it's not in bankruptcy proceedings. I guess a megarich benefactor can right a lot of wrongs.

[Jud_T]

Now that blank-check expense accounts are more dated than Sex and the City and bankers are the cause of all that is wrong with society, I think the Top 5 indicators are headed south with a bullet...Oh, and soup and beer are meant to be served warm, particularly in the climates where proper golf is played...

[Greg Tallman]

1. Fast greens - 12 or better
2. Lush green grass... everywhere
3. Unrelenting, long hard setup
4. 10-20 million dollar clubhouse
5. Comfort stations stocked with "goodies"
Honrable Mention/5A. - Waterfalls


Like it or not folks that is the typical golf consumer. Probably 80-90% of those that play golf judge whether or not a facility is a quality facility and worth the money.

Right or wrong, good or bad, Trump or Doak... It is what it is and it is not going to change.

So is Bandon a fluke? The exception that proves the rules?

No arguments about your indicators, I just wonder if it's simply because that's what's generally available. I will say, Nemacolin Woodlands has everything you list and more, and I can't believe it's not in bankruptcy proceedings. I guess a megarich benefactor can right a lot of wrongs.

George, Not a fluke at all. It is a quality facility catering to somehwat of a niche market. That niche market however is somewhat underserved and will flock to a place like Bandon whenever possible.

Nemacolin is just a tough sell/location. Hardy could look to The American Club on how to do what Nemacolin attempted to do and American Club successfully did. One golf course that gets marginal reviews and hosts a under publicized tour event if far different than what what was done in Kohler with multiple courses that receive their fair share of acclaim and what I would consider a resort much more in harmony with its surrounding than is Nemacolin.

The orginal post does not suggest that if you provide theose things alone you will be successful. Heck give me Dick Groat's place all day every day over Nemaciolin.

[George Pazin]

...Oh, and soup and beer are meant to be served warm, particularly in the climates where proper golf is played...

I believe our friends at Guinness would disagree...

[Mike Demetriou]

Jud, my new friend, warm beer is about as desirable as a 6 hour round of golf. If that's your only option, so be it, but if you have a choice, forget it.

[George Pazin]

George, Not a fluke at all. It is a quality facility catering to somehwat of a niche market. That niche market however is somewhat underserved and will flock to a place like Bandon whenever possible.

I guess I'd say if this is true, how significant are your indicators? I don't mean this to be rude at all, simply having a discussion, but I tend to think the things that most think are important are simply things that have come to be accepted over the years. If it's possible to exploit a niche market by emphasizing other things, then that implies, to me at least, that the 5 indicators aren't so much indicators as minor factors.

In many ways, I'd guess capitalization would be the single most important factor, though not necessarily the most visible indicator. If Bandon had been thrown together by a highly leveraged dreamer (read: idiot) like me, it might not have made it - at least until the second owner took over.

Agreed on Dick Groat's place over Nemacolin.

[Greg Tallman]

This is not golf related...but here is probably the REAL reason that I crossed Cabo off my "places I need to return to list" :

We stayed at the Hacienda Del Mar (Sheraton.) After a full day battle getting 3 kids ages 8 to 13 from NYC to Houston to Cabo and then a taxi to the hotel, we checked in exhausted at about 10 PM...The adjoining rooms we were promised (one with king bed and one with two double beds) were not exactly adjoining...One was on the 4th floor in the front of the building and the other was on the second floor in the back...And they each had one king bed...I argued a little, but the manager no hable English...and I was exhausted so I assumed they would fix things in the morning. (Wrong!)

Now if you think my wife stayed with me in one of the kings while her three little darlings stayed in the other room on the other side of the hotel in a foreign country...you are not married with children...And the situation was NOT rectified at any point during our week-long stay, and Sheraton refused to do anything for me after we returned to the US.

I can guarantee that something like this would NEVER happen at Bandon and I believe that most US hotels would have also resolved the problem for me.  So I vote with my feet and my wallet and spend my vacation dollars where I feel most comfortable.  

Bill,

FYI the hotel is located within Cabo del Sol though it is independently owned and operated. Can you give me the dates you were there? I would like to research and see who was in charge of the hotel at the time. Saying the GM did not speak english was a total copout on the part of the hotel. They have never had a GM without a solid grasp of the english language.  

I am sorry you had such an experience and wish I could convince tyou to return though if the wife had that experience I woudl not expect you would dare make such a suggestion.

That is certainly not the Cabo of today and a product of terrible management at the time. Sounds a lot loke the other parts of thius country where that is about the norm... hook 'em and crook 'em.

[Greg Tallman]

George, Not a fluke at all. It is a quality facility catering to somehwat of a niche market. That niche market however is somewhat underserved and will flock to a place like Bandon whenever possible.

I guess I'd say if this is true, how significant are your indicators? I don't mean this to be rude at all, simply having a discussion, but I tend to think the things that most think are important are simply things that have come to be accepted over the years. If it's possible to exploit a niche market by emphasizing other things, then that implies, to me at least, that the 5 indicators aren't so much indicators as minor factors.

In many ways, I'd guess capitalization would be the single most important factor, though not necessarily the most visible indicator. If Bandon had been thrown together by a highly leveraged dreamer (read: idiot) like me, it might not have made it - at least until the second owner took over.

Agreed on Dick Groat's place over Nemacolin.

George, Would that well capitalized visionary even attempt a Bandon like project today or would they build a "bells and whistles" facility in a good weather destination first?

[George Pazin]

George, Would that well capitalized visionary even attempt a Bandon like project today or would they build a "bells and whistles" facility in a good weather destination first?

Given the nature of the folks that end up well capitalized, I'd guess the latter. But thankfully Mike K has proven me wrong.

I said this recently to a friend: you don't get involved in golf for the money. Only dreamers need apply.

[Ken Moum]

Would that well capitalized visionary even attempt a Bandon like project today or would they build a "bells and whistles" facility in a good weather destination first?

The interesting deal about visionaries and their projects is that some of them seem to be able to ignore conventional wisdom and go with their heart.

I know this is WAY of topic, but as someone who used to make his living writing about hunting, fishing and shooting, it's my favorite example.

Back in the mid-1960s, America's most famous firearms company decided that it should begin to make guns designed by committees and built by machine.  It was no longer going to be possible to make money selling old-fashioned guns.

For Winchester, the result was a debacle about on a par with "new" Coke.  The term "pre-64" came to be used to described guns made before Winchester lost it's corporate mind.

About the same time, a visionary not unlike Mike Keiser, started a little company that made guns HE wanted to own.  He was a true visionary, making use of some of the most modern technology--investment casting. But the guns themselves looked like they were 20 years old, stored in a warehouse somewhere.

Like Mike's golf courses at Bandon, they were classics built by modern men with modern means.  And they were an instant hit.

Today, Ruger firearms are still popular, and they still look like something from another era. And Winchester has mostly gone back to making guns like those from their heyday.

How does this relate to golf?

Well, I think golfers and gun guys aren't all that different.  There is a segment of each group that wants the kind of things on your initial list.  And there's a segment that wants what Mike Keiser is selling.

And then there's people like me who want a little of both.

People most likely will continue to build upscale resorts like yours or courses like Trump International, and if they do it well they will prosper.  And visionaries with money will follow their heart, build something else, Bandon Resort or Sandhills, and if they do it well they will prosper.

And then people will build courses like Wild Horse, or even Cottonwood Hills, where mopes like me can afford to play, and if they do it well they will prosper.  (If they misjudge the market, or the economy tanks they'll fold)

K

[Jud_T]

Jud, my new friend, warm beer is about as desirable as a 6 hour round of golf. If that's your only option, so be it, but if you have a choice, forget it.

I meant relative to U.S. ice cold piss-water:

The proper temperature is essential for beer enjoyment. A beer served too cold will withhold most of its flavor. But while serving beer at room temperature brings out the flavors and aromas and is appropriate when judging beer, most drinkers prefer something cooler. Some general guidelines:

- Serve fruit beers at 40-50° F.
- Serve wheat beers and pale lagers at 45-50° F.
- Serve pale ales and amber or dark lagers at 50-55° F.
- Serve strong ales, such as barley wines and Belgian ales, at 50-55° F.
- Serve dark ales, including porters and stouts, at 55-60° F.

In "Ultimate Beer," Michael Jackson suggests a serving temperatures for each of the 450 beers covered in the book. Here are a few of those suggestions:

- Anchor Old Foghorn: serve at 55° F.
- Anderson Valley High Rollers Wheat Beer: serve at 50° F.
- Ayinger Oktober Fest-Marzen: serve at 48° F.
- BridgePort India Pale Ale: serve at 50-55° F.
- Celis White: serve at 48-50° F.
- Chimay Cinq Cents: store around 57° F, serve at 50° F.
- Framboise Boon: Store at 50-55° F, lightly refrigerate for two or three hours before serving and serve at 47° F.
- Fuller's London Pride: serve at 50-55° F.
- Guinness (Foreign) Extra Stout: serve at 50-55° F.
- North Coast Old Rasputin Russian Imperial Stout: serve at 55-64° F.
- Pilsner Urquell: serve at 48° F.
- Poperings Hommel bier: serve at 50° F.
- Rogue Maierbock Ale: serve at 48° F.
- Schneider Weisse: serve at 48-54° F.
- Unibroue Quelcque Chose: serve at 158° F (yes, warmed).

[Richard Choi]

Only an uneducated lunatic would serve Anchor Old Foghorn at 55'F instead of 54'F...

[Mike Sweeney]

This is not golf related...but here is probably the REAL reason that I crossed Cabo off my "places I need to return to list" :

We stayed at the Hacienda Del Mar (Sheraton.) After a full day battle getting 3 kids ages 8 to 13 from NYC to Houston to Cabo and then a taxi to the hotel, we checked in exhausted at about 10 PM...The adjoining rooms we were promised (one with king bed and one with two double beds) were not exactly adjoining...One was on the 4th floor in the front of the building and the other was on the second floor in the back...And they each had one king bed...I argued a little, but the manager no hable English...and I was exhausted so I assumed they would fix things in the morning. (Wrong!)

Now if you think my wife stayed with me in one of the kings while her three little darlings stayed in the other room on the other side of the hotel in a foreign country...you are not married with children...And the situation was NOT rectified at any point during our week-long stay, and Sheraton refused to do anything for me after we returned to the US.

I can guarantee that something like this would NEVER happen at Bandon and I believe that most US hotels would have also resolved the problem for me.  So I vote with my feet and my wallet and spend my vacation dollars where I feel most comfortable.  

Bill,

FYI the hotel is located within Cabo del Sol though it is independently owned and operated. Can you give me the dates you were there? I would like to research and see who was in charge of the hotel at the time. Saying the GM did not speak english was a total copout on the part of the hotel. They have never had a GM without a solid grasp of the english language.  

I am sorry you had such an experience and wish I could convince tyou to return though if the wife had that experience I woudl not expect you would dare make such a suggestion.

That is certainly not the Cabo of today and a product of terrible management at the time. Sounds a lot loke the other parts of thius country where that is about the norm... hook 'em and crook 'em.

Bill,

I have never been to Cabo (Greg can you send my wife an email, you make a good sales pitch) but I have to say that Starwood (Sheraton) has always been very responsive when we travel. As a family with a Special Needs son, we can be pretty demanding and I find Starwood right up there with Disney. They definitely don't want bad PR on a website filled with traveling golf lunatics, so I would take Greg up on his offer. They will probably respond, at least in the future.

[Charlie Goerges]

Um, Jud... What's "Fruit" Beer?

[Jud_T]

Only an uneducated lunatic would serve Anchor Old Foghorn at 55'F instead of 54'F...

Richard,

Classic!  And your Coors light is on ice.....

[Jud_T]

Um, Jud... What's "Fruit" Beer?

Charlie,

I agree that fruit flavored beer is for the light-in-the-loafer set, although some swear by lambic fruit ale, but I'm just the messenger here....

[Charlie Goerges]

I meant no disrespect to fruit-flavored beer lovers (not that there's anything wrong with that) I just envisioned blueberry-flavored budweiser and a shudder went through my limbic system.

[Bill Brightly]

Greg,

I just checked wih my wife. We went to Cabo in December of 2003, arriving the day after Christmas. (Obviously, a busy time.)

I actually protested payment through AMEX (useless) and wrote to Sheraton's home office and they responded that under Mexican law, a hotel is not required to honor special requests. Further, they told me Sheraton follows local customs, and the hotel in Cabo is not bound to follow Sheraton's corporate policies. So we learned an expensive travel lesson.

My wife also reminded me what happened when we went to pick up our rental car prior to going to the hotel. They simply did not have the minivan we reserved...just a two-person mini car! So I drove that with one kid, and they followed us with the airport van which carried my wife, 2 other kids, all of our luggage and 2 sets of clubs. They did deliver a minivan two days later.

To be fair, my wife said that she would go back to Cabo, and I am being ridiculous... We rode quads in the mountains (awesome) took a day tour to Hotel California, went deep sea fishing, and did some other cool stuff.  

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