[David Wigler]

Is there a GW rater out there who liked Bali Hai and can talk about it?  I am even more amazed that it finished that high if the entire Faux environment cannot be played out of.

[Scott_Burroughs]

I thought the state public rankings were interesting.

Did anyone notice that Twisted Dune was ranked 3rd bet public in NJ (behind Ballowen and Pine Barrens)?  And Royce Brook West was 6th?

How about Apache Stronghold and Talking Stick (N) being 1-2 in AZ ahead of Troon North's pair?

Barona Creek 4th in CA ahead of Spanish Bay, Torrey Pines, PH, PGA West (Stadium), and Lost Canyons?

Murphy Creek 3rd in CO?

World Woods PB ahead of TPC at Sawgrass?

Warren course at ND 2nd in IN and Brickyard Crossing not in Top 5?

Wilmington Municipal 7th in NC and Tobacco Road 9th?

[redanman]

Apache Stronghold and Talking Stick (N) being 1-2 in AZ ahead of Troon North's pair?

Easily

[THuckaby2]

I had the same take re AZ - what's the question there?  I've yet to get to Apache or Talking Stick but Troon North held two of the most overrated, underwhelming courses I have ever played.

I'd put Papago Muni over Troon North Monument...

TH

[redanman]

Nearly ANYTHING in CA ahead of PGA West (Stadium)?

Not on list!

(MY emphasis)

[redanman]

Troon North held two of the most overrated, underwhelming courses I have ever played.

Troon North Monument #11 pre-housing was as awe inspiring a spot as ever existed on the golfing planet.  

Views, experience, that hole was it.  But now.....uhhhh, errrrrrr, ummmmm.

I talked with a not to be named source who said the  four nines would be rearranged once TN's courses dropped off the "lists".

[Mike_Cirba]

Twisted Dune is the best public course in the state of New Jersey, IMHO.  After that, I'd rank them as such;

2) Blue Heron Pines (East)
3) Ballyowen
4) Hawk Pointe
5) Architects
6) Scotland Run
7) Royce Brook West
Pine Hill
9) Knoll (with potential to be much higher)
10) Pine Barrens

[Matt_Ward]

Mike, BillV, et al:

Can you tell me your take on the Keystone State? Olde Stonewall is #1

Mike -- appreciate your listing of best in NJ. I agree with you personally on Twisted Dune and am itching to see it again in its second full season. Hawk Pointe fourth? I'll be making a return visit to see it again -- might be a tad high in my book but a return visit will say plenty. Couple of others to mention in NJ if you've played and your opinion -- NJ National, Great Gorge GC (formerly The Playboy Club and specifically the Lake / Quarry Nines), Cape May National, Sand Barrens.

Thanks...

Just one last comment on the California listing. Love to see Barona Creek in the modern listing because it is so deserving, but ahead of Lost Canyons (Sky) course is clearly a stretch in my opinion. Tommy N please weigh in.

Would really like to hear from GW panelists on how a number of public courses finished the way they did and why others were simply left out as highlighted in a number of posts besides mine.

Thanks ...

[THuckaby2]

Matt:  I'm not Tommy N, but I have played Lost Canyons Shadow and seen nearly all of Lost Canyons Sky and I have played Barona.

I have no problem putting Barona over either Lost Canyons course.  I suppose it comes down to individual taste - they are very different indeed.  

TH

[Billv (Guest)]

BillV
Can you tell me your take on the Keystone State? Olde Stonewall is #1

Haven't played it.  I haven't encountered the quality of public courses in PA that we had in CO, for example.  Private, that's another matter.

As for NJ, where I have more public experience

My Experience So Far
1- Twisted Dune
2- Royce Brook West
3- Blue Heron East
4- Hawk Pointe
    Ballyowen (About equal)
6- Architects
7- Pine Barrens
8- Scotland Run
9- Pine Hill
10- Maybe Hominy Hill, Knoll?   Like Mike said, Knoll could be better, hard to place now....

[Scott_Burroughs]

I certainly wasn't questioning GW's state public rankings.  I was merely asking if any one had noticed them as they seemed almost like WE had done the rankings.  You think Troon North will like the fact that they're not #1 any more (by GW)?  Or Sawgrass in FL?  How about Barona shooting above big money heavyweights?  Twisted Dune, with their reasonable fees and otherwise limiting marketing (is that fair to say?), shooting to #3?  What about Wilmington Muni, which I've never seen on any lists, go to #7, above and in the company with Pinehurst CC's heavyweights?

[THuckaby2]

Given that it seems that 90% of the people who post here ARE GW raters, why the surprise, Scott?

 

TH

[David Wigler]

Scott,

I am not sure what you are getting at either.  I liked Barona better than Torrey, Spyglass, and Pelican.  I like PGA West better than Barona.

I like Troon North Monument better than Talking Stick and have never played Apache.

A whole bunch of votes were tabulated and the winners were printed.  I do not think that anyone was influenced by GCA to recalculate the votes to reflect a perceived GCA bias.

The shocker to me is Bali Hai in Vegas.  I have never spoken to a single person who had a good think to say about the golf course.  I cannot imagine how it beat Paiute or Reflections Bay.  That written, obviously it did.  Is not part of the fun of any rankings that they create controversy?  

If, on the other hand, you have pictures of someone at GW speaking in hushed tones with a French judge before the votes were tabulated and printed, tell us.  

[JohnH]

Any ideas why Sahalee is ranked #70 in the modern course list, but worthy ahead of many others to hold a major???

[Nick_Christopher]

I usually don't say much about the ranking debates, but I am disappointed that Kingsley came in at #98, while Arcadia Bluffs finished as high as #41.  Could be an aberration related to the number of people seeing each course, but the only thing that Arcadia has over Kingsley is the view of the water.  As far as strategy, shotmaking and fun are concerned Kingsley comes out ahead everytime.

[Scott_Burroughs]

David,
     My point was not whether the rankings were valid or not.  My point was the fact that it's GREAT to see all of these less-spectacular, less-expensive, design-driven courses were ranked higher than the name architect, CCFAD-driven, 2nd mortgage-inducing courses.  A number of these courses are well-known on this site, but almost unknown (or unheralded) to the general golfing public in their own backyards.

You think regular San Diegans are going to trek out to see Barona Creek when there's a Tom Fazio! design in town?  Or a Tour stop! course in town?

How many Wilmington, NC golfers play the Muni because it's a restored Donald Ross gem with strategic holes?  They play there because it's dirt cheap.  My mom and stepdad live there and have played it and give me a Elvis-esque upper lip sneer when I asked them what they thought of the course.  They care about what most others care about.

It wouldn't surprise me if most golfers who play Apache Stronghold don't like it near as much as the Scottsdale Titans because the conditioning wasn't lush or there wasn't any GPS on the carts.

I was asking if anyone had noticed because I think it's great.  Good design getting it's due over flash.

[David Wigler]

Scott,

Thanks for the clarification.  I could not agree with you more.  GW has always been the magazine for the serious golfer in my book.

[Matt_Ward]

Nick Christopher:

Amen on your comments about The Kingsley Club v. Arcadia Bluffs.

If Arcadia can make the top 50 modern then TKC is right there as well. Sometimes, people place an undue emphasis on off-site features (i.e. Lake Michigan in this case).

The strategic elements at TKC are there for anyone to see provided they really OPEN their eyes. I absolutely love the course and after someone plays Crystal Downs you need to hustle over to TKC.

Scott B:

Good point on the under-appreciated courses getting their moment "in the sun," however, as I listed in a previous thread there are some serious omissions and devaluations of key public courses I have mentioned and it really strikes me as why this has happened. I guess to be fair no rating can be exactly what we want since it is a consensus effort.

Scott -- what courses do you feel were left out from the public scene as you see it?

Mike Cirba:

Can you weigh in on how Olde Stonewall gets top billing in the Keystone State?

Tommy N or Tom Huckaby:

Would like to see your top 20 public listing for California if at all possible.

Thanks ...

matt

[JSlonis]

It was great too see Twisted Dune get its just due. Congrats to Archie.  I played there a month ago during our "global warming winter", and the course/greens were in as good of a condition as many courses/greens mid summer. I can't wait to see the maturation of the course over the years to come.

[Steve Johnson]

Matt -- here's my top 10 public for California:

Pebble, Spyglass, Pasatiempo, Poppy Hills (I know everyone hates this course), Maderas, Torrey South (only b/c of the new design), Barona Creek, SCGA Members' Course, (another controversial one I'm sure) Landmark, Spanish Bay.

OK, now let's get to Barona as #100.  I'm very surprised about the ranking.  The course is a nice course but nothing like a Maderas or a Torrey South in San Diego.  Good things are as follows:  Greens are true and fast.  Design is good with nice mix of holes.  The Par 3's are very strong and unique.  Things to improve upon: conditioning is so-so with fairways often "scalped" down much too far.  First two Par 5's are too short.  I'm not a long hitter (260 yard drives) and can reach the Par 5's easily from the back tees.  Hole 4, par 4 is not a fair hole.  The landing area is much too narrow.  If one plays out to the right, then the approach is around 200 yards to a tough green.  Not a fair hole.  I like this course, but would put Maderas about 100 spots above Barona.

[Steve Johnson]

Matt -- here's my top 10 public for California:

Pebble, Spyglass, Pasatiempo, Poppy Hills (I know everyone hates this course), Maderas, Torrey South (only b/c of the new design), Barona Creek, SCGA Members' Course, (another controversial one I'm sure) Landmark, Spanish Bay.

OK, now let's get to Barona as #100.  I'm very surprised about the ranking.  The course is a nice course but nothing like a Maderas or a Torrey South in San Diego.  Good things are as follows:  Greens are true and fast.  Design is good with nice mix of holes.  The Par 3's are very strong and unique.  Things to improve upon: conditioning is so-so with fairways often "scalped" down much too far.  First two Par 5's are too short.  I'm not a long hitter (260 yard drives) and can reach the Par 5's easily from the back tees.  Hole 4, par 4 is not a fair hole.  The landing area is much too narrow.  If one plays out to the right, then the approach is around 200 yards to a tough green.  Not a fair hole.  I like this course, but would put Maderas about 100 spots above Barona.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

I have not been down to Barona, but PGA West would be in my top 100 modern.

It is astonishing to me that it isn't, especially given Dye's favourable treatment.

[Craig Rokke]

It's nice to see a rankings acknowledge the superintendents
in addition to the architects.

GW does a nice job. How much editorial latitude do any of the rankings allow? (Amost 1 in 4 classics is Ross  )Or is it strictly the raters evaluating based on their ranking criteria?

For PA golfers, Hershey CC is ranked as the 5th public. How good of a course is this Maurice McCarthy design?

Two of modern list's most honored are Fought and Cupp,
yet their names rarely turn up. What's their work like?

[Paul Richards]

JohnH:

Ranking doesn't necessarily engender a course to hold a Major, although hosting one usually helps its ranking.  The PGA and USGA need BIG golf courses, with lots of room for tents and fans, so that means a lot of the courses ranked above Sahalee are out because of lack of facilities.

That being said, Kapalua Plantation and Sahalee are two
of the courses on GW's Modern list that are ranked WAY too
low.

[Paul Richards]

Tom MacWood:

Butler to me is a very special golf course.  It's big, it's mean,
it's nasty, but it's a real test of golf.

Back in the "olden days", clubs around Chicago got to send
their best caddies to caddy at the Western Open.  I was
fortunate once to be sent by Beverly CC to caddie at
Butler in the 1981 Western Open.  I caddied for a college
All-American from San Diego State, Curtis Worley (where are
you now?) who missed the cut by only a couple of strokes,
mostly because he bogeyed 17 and doubled 18 both days.

Having attended this and many other Westerns at Butler, as
well as having played it a few times now, have made me
realize what a great test of golf it is.

IMHO, Butler is at LEAST a top 40 Modern course!

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