[Ran Morrissett]

I just received my copy and among the more notable events, Fishers Island edges ahead of NGLA  :-/ , Lehigh debutes at #88C, PacDunes at #2M, Chechessee at #59M, The Ocean jumps up 14 spots to #22M, Kingsley Club debutes at #98M (which seems about 70 spots off based on my brother's report from there), Fenway stays at 80C  :-/ and Yeamans bounced up 17 spots to 28C.

When do they post them on their web site so that we can cut and paste the list over for discussion?

[Ran Morrissett]

Among the big winners (moving up by 10 or more spots) under Classic were Yeamans, Somerset Hills, Newport, Moraine, Indianwood, Lawsonia, Hollywood, and Wykagyl.

Among the losers (dropping by 10 or more) were Salem   , Inverness, Lancaster   , Congressional, Taconic   , Sankaty, The Dunes in Myrtle Beach, and Mountain Lake.

Tom MacWood's Kirtland debutes at #83. Charles River, Eastward Ho!, Skokie and Lookout Mountain failed to make the list  

Among the big winners Modern were The Ocean Course , Karsten Creek, Hawk's Ridge, Jim Engh's Sanctuary, Arcadia Bluffs, Ocean Forest, Mauna Kea, Sahalee, Bulle Rock, Caledonia, Kapalua Plantation , and Weed's Olde Farm.

Among the losers (down 10 or more) were Inniscrone which dropped off from #60  , Royal New Kent dropped 43 spots, TPC at Snoqualmie dropped 52, Old Memorial dropped 43, Oak Tree shed 38 spots, John's Island West dropped 35 spots, Red Mike, Stonewall, Forest Creek, Secession, Belfair West, Nantucket, Atlantic, Pumpkin Ridge Ghost, and Pumpkin Ridge Witch Hollow.

Sand Ridge debutes at #65.

Black Creek in Chat, Tenn. failed to make it  

Cheers,

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ran,

Perhaps you, Matt Ward or others could explain the Somerset Hills and Wykagyl advancements to me, I'm a little hazy on some of these.

[A_Clay_Man]

I was under the impression Matt Ward is GD panelist.?

Go, Lawsonia! ayuh Dick?

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Havent seen this yet.

Where is my home club Musgrove Mill GC in Clinton, SC?  #58M on last years.

Thanks.

[Paul Turner]

How does Colt&Alison's 1920's Sea Island get on the modern list?

Just because of modern a redesign?  There's a few other candidates, if that's the case!

[Ran Morrissett]

In past years, I felt there were distinguishable trends in GW's rankings - for instance, one year, there was a Raynor love-fest underway, which was fine by me  

However, this year's effort seems to be a dog's breakfast - it's all over the place   which is probably a good thing.

The Salem CC Green Keeper wins GK of the year and then his course shags 11 spots.

Yeamans bounces well up but Mountain Lake drops further down.

Flynn didn't fare well - Lancaster, Cascades, Manufacturer's, Huntingdon Valley, Phillie CC, Cherry Hills all slipped while Rolling Green (which I think was shut for much of last year) went up  

Seeing Fishers slide past NGLA would not please either Macdonald NOR Raynor, I suspect. They would grimmace at what happens when you add a bunch of ballots together, if they cared at all. I love Fishers to death but people who vote it ahead of NGLA aren't very tuned in to architecture.

Both Winged Foot West and Oakmont got the bumps upward they deserve for their tree felling programs.

The fact that Fenway stayed flat at #80 is a SHOCK. This design highlighted by its awesome greens easily deserves to be in the same company as Five farms, Baltusrol, etc. in the 30s for sure.

Seeing a course with no fairway irrigation like Newport bounce up a full 20 spots is very encouraging.

Taconic's drop of 25 reminds me that they need to bring back some of the original cross hazrads.

As for GW's modern effort, it is a free-for-all with bodies flying everywhere. In general, Fazio didn't seem to fare well with 5/6 courses dropping off and 8 more going in reverse, off set by Sand Ridge at #65 being the highest of his four to be added to the list.

GW's rankings of Pete Dye's courses remains a mystery to me. How/why Harbour Town is behind Pete Dye GC, The Honors, and TPC is puzzling, at best.  I don't know when Long Cove re-opened but it didn't seem to get any points for Dye's work as it dropped 8 spots.

Apache jumped 9 spots up and Stonewall dropped 10, tightening the gap between the two to 12, which is good in my book. Given a choice, Apache sounds more interesting to go see for a first time.

Musgrove Mills bounced up 9 spots, so Turboe should be happy  

Overall, I wish the GW panelists would seize the opportunity creating by ranking a full 200 courses to highlight some of the more unique courses like Eastward Ho!, Lookout Mountain,  Cape Arundel, Tobacco Road,  or Black Creek. Also, are 9 hole courses excluded, and if so, why? Ultimately, by giving elasticity to their efforts by showcasing a greater range of what can be considered great, they would do the game a service.

Cheers,

[John_Conley]

Is Dook actually going to lose?

Anyway... as mentioned, the GW list comes out annually and that was last year's.  Can we delete it to shorten the thread.

I for one am not surprised to see Mountain Lake slip a few places.  I consider Somerset to be a superior Raynor design and that never gets any props.

A big congrats to the boys at Lehigh.  Perhaps now we won't get bombarded by batch e-mails reminding us to see it!  

(I PROMISE, I will see it if in the area.  No idea when that'll be, so you don't need to send any reminders.)

Can't wait to see the list, but it seems like Ran has divulged the essence.

[Paul Richards]

Ran:

Thanks for deleting the 2001 lists.  For some reason, I thought
I was posting the new ones from the Golfweek website.

To address a few of your questions - although Harbour Town
is wonderful, Pete Dye GC is, IMHO, his best work, although
Whistling Straights is right there with it.

You mentioned Tobacco Road, which is a really fun course
to play and a definite must-see in the area when you are
visiting, but it shouldn't make this list.

Apache jumping 9 spots is correct.  Doak did a wonderful
job there, and as soon as the conditioning, which has been
suspect, is improved, this course will finally become
appreciated by non-GCA'ers.  It seems most on this site
really do like it.  Unfortunately, no one else has heard of it.

[BillV]

John Conley and others who are raters and anyone who cares

I may be a member at Lehigh and a rater for Golfweek, but I never sent a batch e-mail telling people that they should see Lehigh CC. Never, ever, it's not my style. I don't think that I have ever sent a batch e-mail to the Golfweek rater group on any topic.

Let  there be no confusion.  Don't accuse me.  I don't care if Lehigh is on any list or not.  Having your club on the lists may encourage certain people to "put a notch on their belts", that's not what identification of architectural excellence  is all about.

[SPDB]

John -
Tillie designed Somerset, not Raynor. Although there are a lot of classic and strong elements to Mountain Lake, it would not surprise me terribly if it fell off the list. Is Silva's restoration finished yet?

Paul - there is little if any C&A left at Sea Island - Seaside. Fazio did the whole thing over.

I, like Pat, cannot understand how Wykagyl put this big a move in? Was there anything that took place there (beside the Big Apple Classic   ) that would recommend such a jump?I've always found it a dull course, somebody tell me differently and I'll listen.

[John_Conley]

BillV:

I don't know where they came from, but we did get a couple more than a year ago.  I'm being sincere when I say that I'm glad your course made this rendition of the list.  Maybe someday I'll be up there.

Spiderbite:

Wrong.  Seth Raynor designed Somerset.

[SPDB]

John - I think you are confusing Somerset HILLS CC (NJ), with Somerset CC (MN). You are right - Somerset CC was a raynor course, but that is not the one we are discussing, since it doesn't appear on the GW list.

Somerset Hills is the one we're talking about here - it is a Tillie design in Bernardsville, NJ.  

[A_Clay_Man]

Ran- Could you quantify what you like so much about Whistling Straits?

[Ajay Dand]

Those e-mails came from Andrew Bernstein. I suspect the young teen was encouraged by his host and outspoken Lehigh promoter Mark Fine.

 Do you think there is relationship between the other Flynn courses dropping, and possibly Inniscrone and Stonewall's fall, with the intense focus on Lehigh?

[John_Conley]

I for one am not surprised to see Mountain Lake slip a few places.  I consider Somerset to be a superior Raynor design and that never gets any props.

Spiderbite:

You think I'M confused?!  :-/

Somerset is a great Raynor design that has been on the Golfweek "America's Best" list in the past and is no longer on it.  Don't mistake my feelings... I LOVE the experience of playing Mountain Lake, but it is a little bit of a bland setting compared to other Top 100 courses.

If Somerset isn't in the Top 100 anymore, and I consider it to be superior to Mtn. Lk., then how can I be confused?

[John_Conley]

Spider:

You remind me of a guy I caddied for who got me a grapefruit juice mixed with lemonade when I asked for GRAPE juice & lemo.

One you can drink and one you can't.

[SPDB]

John

Which one of those concoctions is potable?  

I apologize, i thought since Ran and others were discussing S.Hills, you were incorporating it.

I can't recall seeing somerset CC on recent lists.

[APBernstein]

I thought I might not say anything and just keep quiet, but after thinking about it, nah...

First off, e-mails?  No.  Yes, I sent one e-mail encouraging GW panelists to see Lehigh.  Should I have sent that e-mail?  Probably not.  A mistake that I apologized to Brad for and have moved on.  Like Rich Goodale said, no one's perfect.

And by the way, Ajay, I like the young teen comment.  Sounds like I have been lined up for days to get tickets for N'Sync.

[Mark_Fine]

Ajay,
I can't vote for everyone and I promise I didn't beat Andrew or anyone else over the head with a stick    When Andrew visited Lehigh, he wasn't even a panelist!  

If I'm responsible for anything, it's trying to get this course and others some exposure (that IS part of what this site is all about, discuss golf architecture and talk about the best we know is out there).  After, that the courses have to speak for themselves.  Lehigh has held up to some rigorous scrutiny from some very notable critics including, Tom Doak, Ron Whitten, Geoff Shackelford and Ran Morressitt just to list a few.  Everyone of them raved about the course and I don't think it was because Mark Fine said they should!  They may value my opinion and as a Ron Whitten told me, "if there is one course you should be able to do a proper review on, it's your own", but ultimately they make their own judgements.

I get invited often to come see courses that people tell me are God's gift to golf.  I might agree or disagree after making the visit but at the end of the day, the final consensus is all mine!  I'm sure any other panelist feels the same way!
Mark

[SPDB]

John -
what do you think of John's Island West plummeting.
I've played it a ton and I really like that place, and think it is one of Fazio's best - much better than a lot of his other courses that figure into the list.

[Coral_Ridge]

Back in the mid-80's I played the Seaside Nine at Sea Island GC and I loved it.  If Fazio did away with most of the Colt & Alison design, it is a shame.   When flying over St. Simons Island it does look completely different.  Would like to see an aerial shot of the before and after.  The contrast is striking.  Any chance Scott Burroughs?

[Mark_Fine]

I just played Seaside two weeks ago.  There is really nothing left of the original layout.  It is essentially a brand new golf course.  

[Ran Morrissett]

A_Clay_Man,

There are great holes at WS, in particular holes 4, 7, 8, 10, 11, 15, and 17. Throw in the wind, throw in the wide fairways, throw in the usual interesting angles from Dye, throw in a strong supporting cast of holes like 2, 3, 12, 13, and 16 and you have a great course. Only Dye could make you feel at home on such a manufactured site.

Its walking policy coupled with no outside disturbances are a big plus also. The negatives were the 9th, 5th and 18th holes but I understand that the later two have received a lot of help since my 1998 visit.

My take on Dye's work is that The Ocean Course, The Golf Club, WS, Harbour Town and (I assume) Casa de Campo are his five finest efforts - talk about an AWESOME collection of courses. Think of the diversity within them, ranging from the low profile Harbour Town to WS. What can you say but WOW - the man has some serious talent!

[John_Conley]

Spiderbite:

Somerset - #75 Classic in 1997.  #100 in '98.  #97 in '99.  I'll keep doing my part to see its return!!

Mark F:

Congrats.  I'm glad to see Lehigh on the list and have heard many good things from a lot of people.

Re: John's Island (and really a comment on the whole process)

I'm sad to see any course I like as much as JIW slip, but it is understandable considering how many new courses have come online and how close the balloting is.  I keep trying to tell people that #90 vs. #62 isn't as important as inclusion period.

"But this one is better than that one just ahead of it."  Waaa, waaaa, waaaaaa!  A) That's just your opinion and 150 other guys also have a voice, and B) It's still on the list, isn't it!

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