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Dan_Callahan

Re: Wintonbury Hills GC | Photo Tour & Review (Bloomfield, CT)
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2010, 03:44:58 PM »
Hi Nick,

Nice review. Thanks for pulling this together.

I've played Wintonbury many times, and it is one of the few courses that left me liking in less each time I played it.

Don't get me wrong, I would still recommend it to a friend, especially when compared to the other (crappy) public courses in Connecticut).

However, the similarities between 1-4 and 10-13 get difficult to overlook after repeated playing. They are almost carbon copies of each other, which is too bad.

Did you have the same reaction when you played? After my round, I often have a hard time remembering if a shot I hit was on 2 or 11 ... 3 or 12, etc.

Nick Campanelli

Re: Wintonbury Hills GC | Photo Tour & Review (Bloomfield, CT)
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2010, 03:59:03 PM »
Dan,

I've played the course twice now.  Like you, I appreciated it better the first time I played it five years ago when it first opened.  There are some really great holes out there, but there are also a hand full of holes that left me wanting more.  

The whole 1-4 / 10-13 thing bothered me the first time around, but not so much the second.  Other than holes 1 and 10, I felt the parallel holes played completely different from their neighbor.  

1 Disliked (straight forward, no surprises)            10 Disliked (straight forward, no surprises)
2 Disliked (straight forward, no surprises)            11 Liked (tough par 4 with options off tee)
3 Liked (challenging short hole)                          12 Disliked (straight forward)
4 Disliked (straight forward, no surprises)            13 Liked (fun green complex)
« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 04:01:19 PM by Nick Campanelli »
Landscape Architect  //  Golf Course Architect

Richard Hetzel

Re: Wintonbury Hills GC | Photo Tour & Review (Bloomfield, CT)
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2010, 04:50:59 PM »
I played there back in 2006 and thought it was a nice golf course. I do remember that the greens were ROCK HARD and rarely held even the highest of shots into them.
Favorites Played in 2024:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI), AIken GC (SC), Fort Mill GC (SC)

Nick Campanelli

Re: Wintonbury Hills GC | Photo Tour & Review (Bloomfield, CT)
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2010, 05:04:27 PM »
I played there back in 2006 and thought it was a nice golf course. I do remember that the greens were ROCK HARD and rarely held even the highest of shots into them.

Richard, polar opposite this time around.  Greens were real soft.  I'm sure the rain we had on Saturday helped soften them up though.   
Landscape Architect  //  Golf Course Architect

Tim Gavrich

Re: Wintonbury Hills GC | Photo Tour & Review (Bloomfield, CT)
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2010, 05:28:32 PM »
Nick--

Nice photo tour of Wintonbury.  Your photos seem to do a better job than most of capturing the contours out there.  Some interesting commentary as well.  I'm especially intrigued by your appraisals of the two clear pairs of par 3s: 7 & 17, and 3 & 12.  I was wondering if you might flesh out your reasons for preferring 17 to 7 and for preferring 3 to 12. 

Personally, I like number 7 more than 17 because the elevation change requires a bit of calculation of how much distance to take off, as well as a bit more estimation of the wind's effect on the shot.  Also, there's more chance to land the ball short and right on 7 (I've never had any luck doing that on 17).  And I prefer number 12 to number 3 because while the 3rd has that neat sideboard in the green, I am a big fan of the fact that you can play a little run-up shot to get to a front pin on 12.  Especially when the ground is firm, the best play on that hole is a shot that lands some 15-20 yards short and trickles down onto the green.

Cheers.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Nick Campanelli

Re: Wintonbury Hills GC | Photo Tour & Review (Bloomfield, CT)
« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2010, 07:04:31 PM »
Tim,

Thanks for the response.  My review of 12 and 7 would have been more in line with your comments if the course was playing firm.  The very soft conditions on Sunday would not have allowed for any run-up shots, so I never considered the possibility.  I found my self having to play at or just beyond all the pins, something I'm not usually accustomed to in the middle of summer.  

I  played over at Wannamoisett last Monday with my boss.  That course is playing VERY firm and fast right now.  Almost every approach required a shot that landed 10-15yds short of the green.  Transitioning from the fast and firm conditions to fast but soft at Wintonbury was a challenge.....it took a few holes to get the yardage right.   

-Nick  
« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 07:11:28 PM by Nick Campanelli »
Landscape Architect  //  Golf Course Architect

Nick Campanelli

Re: Wintonbury Hills GC | Photo Tour & Review (Bloomfield, CT)
« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2010, 07:30:43 PM »
Tim Gavrich's Course Profile for Wintonbury Hills.  Additional insight into holes 8, 14, and 17.

http://www.examiner.com/x-10682-Hartford-Golf-Examiner~y2009m6d10-Golf-course-profile-Wintonbury-Hills-Golf-Course
Landscape Architect  //  Golf Course Architect

Brad Klein

Re: Wintonbury Hills GC | Photo Tour & Review (Bloomfield, CT)
« Reply #32 on: July 15, 2010, 08:15:09 PM »
Ron,

Maybe I'm dyslexic but I didn't see the word "weakest" anywhere in your account. Maybe you edited it out?

Back in 2006 the greens were firmer because there was no thatch. After 5 years of full-season operation they are a little more receptive now and thus with a bit more organic, but still no Poa annua and overwhelmingly bentgrass.

Interestingly, the issue of the near parallels of holes 1-4 and 10-13 never came up to those of us who were involved in the design/construction of Wintonbury until it was pointed out in the 2nd year. I still don't see how anyone could confuse 2 (a short uphill hole top a receptive fairway) with 11 (a very long uphill hole with the toughest drive on the course to a hogback fairway). But there's enough on 1/10 and 3-4/12-13 to give the claim some credibility. To which our standard answer, hey, it's not bad for a muni.

The other thing that we know that doesn't really matter for everyday golfers is that if you look through the 20 different routing iterations and think about the $2 million of permitting fees, legal and wetlands analysis, endless meetings with DEP and the town's own committees and subsequent law suits, it's a miracle the thing got done and that we are able to come up with a golf course at all on a site with 91 acres of wetlands and overhead wires. Typical Pete Dye, when he was staking the site for the 1st green he absolutely insisted on putting it dead center in front of one of those high-rise electric towers. That way, he'd figured, you'd get it out of the way at the outset and by the end, nobody would remember.

Nick Campanelli

Re: Wintonbury Hills GC | Photo Tour & Review (Bloomfield, CT)
« Reply #33 on: July 15, 2010, 08:32:33 PM »
Brad,

The "weak" comments have been revised.  You are not going crazy. 

I agree with you in that the parallel holes play very differently from their neighbors.  I love the 11th. 

I was around while construction was going on, and tried to stay up to date with all of the wetland issues, but as an outsider, knowledge is limited.  I actually attended a few meetings at Bloomfield Town Hall just to listen to the process.  I honestly feel bad for what you went through.  I'm sure you have seen all interations of the routing prior to what was actually built.  On the original routing, were there more holes located on the lower flats around the clubhouse (i.e. northwest of 18)?  I have a routing map from the groundbreaking ceremony, but the routing is pretty similar to what is built.  Any insight would be helpful!

Overall, I think the design and product were incredible given A) this is a muni B) the wetland issues C) the backlash from the town.  Didn't Mr. Dye charge a measly $1 design fee for the course?  Its amazing the resistance people show when they are being handed a gift....     
Landscape Architect  //  Golf Course Architect

Brad Klein

Re: Wintonbury Hills GC | Photo Tour & Review (Bloomfield, CT)
« Reply #34 on: July 15, 2010, 08:55:29 PM »
Dye only charged a $1 after I asked him if he'd do the town a favor and do a course for us. We did end up paying his associate, Tim Liddy, a decent if sub-market rate for his work. For the record, Pete made 7 site visits, including a crucial decisive visit mid-way through construction in 2002. And he retained oversight and control over all routings, though it was Liddy, who made 40+ visits and is doing another one Aug. 2-3 to look at bunkers, who did all of the everyday field work for the project. I just served as his chauffeu.

I have all of those routing plans in my garage. We spent the first three years of the project (1995-98) chasing a routing and approval for an entirely different site on the other side of town amidst a different MDC reservoir. The early routings on the site we ended up with included 4-5 holes along the reservoir, but those gradually got beaten back to one (our 14th) by the DEP. Permitting required separate approvals by the US Army Corps of Engineers, the CT state DEP and, an agency whose doggedness and persistence ended up costing us here and there, the town's own inland and wetlands commission. Anyone who thinks that, just because the town was the applicant its own committees would cut it slack, is mistaken.

For the record the course absorbed 8 years of planning/development before opening, as well as $11.3 million, 3 completely different electoral bond referenda, and what I would literally estimate to be 250 meetings.

I now do a 40-minute PowerPoint presentation on 'Lessons from a Municipal Golf Project" that I take around to superintendent groups and municipalities. The first lesson of the the project I try to convey is "Don't Do it."

Carl Nichols

Re: Wintonbury Hills GC | Photo Tour & Review (Bloomfield, CT)
« Reply #35 on: July 15, 2010, 09:06:26 PM »
Brad:
Do you live in or around Bloomfield?

Tim Bert

Re: Wintonbury Hills GC | Photo Tour & Review (Bloomfield, CT)
« Reply #36 on: July 15, 2010, 09:58:15 PM »
Thanks for the review. I lived in Manchester, Bloomfield, and Windsor for a total of 5 years and this course opened for my last couple years there. I only played public golf in my time in CT and this was near the top of my list in the local area (the other being my sentimental favorite Rolling Meadows).  Interesting that I never really noticed until reading your review the number of holes that favor a drive to the left. I think your assessment was 1,2,4,5,6,10,11,14,15,18. Remove the five par 3s from the equation and that is a 10-3 left-right advantage.

Brad Klein

Re: Wintonbury Hills GC | Photo Tour & Review (Bloomfield, CT)
« Reply #37 on: July 15, 2010, 10:54:48 PM »
11 and 14 do not favor the left at all. A draw on 11 never holds the fairway and leaves a blind, straight uphill 2nd shot. And a draw on 14 hits the hill and dies, leaving you 20-30 yards farther away than something hit down the right. So the balance isn't quite as one-sided as you might think.

Carl, Ive been in Bloomfield for 23 years, live 3 miles from the first tee at Wintonbury, was co-chair of the golf course building committee and am on the town-appointed management team, and play there (paying the regular fee), but only 5-6 times a year.


Carl Nichols

Re: Wintonbury Hills GC | Photo Tour & Review (Bloomfield, CT)
« Reply #38 on: July 15, 2010, 11:11:21 PM »
Brad:
We overlapped in the area for a few years -- I grew up in Simsbury, played golf at Simsbury Farms and worked at Hopmeadow CC, graduated from Simsbury HS in 1988 (and played Bloomfield in soccer, hoops, and maybe golf?), and then my parents moved away in 1992. Still get back reasonably often, since my brother lives in Granby and lots of high school friends are still in the area.

Kudos to you for helping get this course built!

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