Road Hole and #14 at Pebble Beach

[JC Jones]

Looking at the stats for the Road Hole, it appears to be statistically harder than #14 at Pebble.  With all of the uproar about #14 at Pebble being "unfair" and the green being ridiculous, why does the Road Hole get a free pass?

[Adam Clayman]

Excellent query! Perceptions are hard to figure out. Bias, pre-conceived notions, expectations all seem like places to start when analyzing critical comments. Even when discussing beer preferences.

[Anthony Gray]

Looking at the stats for the Road Hole, it appears to be statistically harder than #14 at Pebble.  With all of the uproar about #14 at Pebble being "unfair" and the green being ridiculous, why does the Road Hole get a free pass?

  Because its The Road Hole.


  Anthony

[Mike Hamilton]

I haven't looked at the stats, but my first response would be that if the number is the scoring average vs par...you would always expect a reasonable tough par 4 to be harder vs par than almost any par 5.

[BCrosby]

JC -

Scoring averages on a hole don't tell you much that is interesting. I would rather know the distribution of scores from low to high and whether there are lumpy outliers (that is, clumps of triples and quads as at the 14th at PB).

All that data feeds into the "TEP Conjecture", something that would be fun to apply to the RH and PB 14th. But I don't have the necessary scoring data or the time today.

Bob

[George Pazin]

It's more the manner in which PB #14 was hard than the result. I think people were just tired of seeing wedges bounce off the green, and then recovery shots go up and back, up and back.

So even if the Road Hole is statistically harder, I don't think that means it is getting a free pass.

When evaluating golfers and tourneys, it's how many, not how - when evaluating golf course architecture, how becomes much much more important. Just mho.

For those interested in reading more about the Road Hole, there's an entertaining little book called Wry Stories On The Road Hole that's a very fun and easy read. It's mostly just anecdotes about how the hole was played in various tourneys and matches.

[JNC Lyon]

Both greens are great, and 14 at Pebble was criticized unfairly.  The Road Hole doesn't need a "free pass."

I think that pros hate greens that send the ball in the wrong direction once it lands.  That is why nobody liked 7 at Shinnecock and 14 at Pebble.  17 at St. Andrews doesn't do that, and it therefore doesn't get the complaints.

[JC Jones]

zero birdies thus far.

[Tom_Doak]

The Road Hole gets a free pass because it has been that way FOREVER [well, 150 years] and you should be mentally prepared to deal with it.

The 14th at Pebble has not always been that way, where you have a wedge shot with a 15-foot margin of error.  They didn't used to mow the bank to the left of the green so that balls would retreat off the green and lead to triple bogeys.  And the green didn't used to be so fast that a hiccup would result in the ball coming all the way back off the front (and twenty yards more), leaving the same wedge shot with zero margin for error.

[JC Jones]

The Road Hole gets a free pass because it has been that way FOREVER [well, 150 years] and you should be mentally prepared to deal with it.

The 14th at Pebble has not always been that way, where you have a wedge shot with a 15-foot margin of error.  They didn't used to mow the bank to the left of the green so that balls would retreat off the green and lead to triple bogeys.  And the green didn't used to be so fast that a hiccup would result in the ball coming all the way back off the front (and twenty yards more), leaving the same wedge shot with zero margin for error.

Tom,

Whether its been that way for 150 years or 150 days, why SHOULDN'T the best players in the world be mentally prepared to deal with it?

[Ronald Montesano]

I think that there's been one birdie so far on TRH.

Perception is the key here.  We expect long and mid irons to reach a green with more difficulty than wedges.  Remember that Mike Davis thought he was helping the players (public confession) rather than hurting them, by shaving down #14.  It backfired.  The new tee on #17 doesn't hurt the players, from my vantage point, as it gives them more opp to get the ball up and over the sheds (not that they truly need it.)

I also agree with the outliers theory.  If we see 8s and 9s at TRH, then we say, WTF?  Where is the hole located today?  When they tuck it behind the road bunker, that's when we'll see more conservative play and lower scores.  With an accessible hole location, players might get greedy and strive for more than they merit.

[JC Jones]

I'm just glad we are finally admitting that it is perception that is the problem and not the architecture.

[Tom_Doak]

JC:

I don't agree with you that this is just perception.

The hole at Pebble Beach is different because after the set-up changes, there is NO SIDE TO MISS and make a sure bogey, even when you've got a wedge in your hand for the third shot.  The Road Hole gives you the front of the green.

[Jim Nugent]

Mike Hamilton is right.  The pro's hit wedge or even putter into #14 at Pebble.  So you would expect them to score better against par, than at the Road Hole, where they hit much longer club.  

I asked before and didn't see an answer, so I'll try again.  Has any par 5 in tournament golf played harder than #14 at Pebble did during the U.S. Open?  

[JC Jones]

JC:

I don't agree with you that this is just perception.

The hole at Pebble Beach is different because after the set-up changes, there is NO SIDE TO MISS and make a sure bogey, even when you've got a wedge in your hand for the third shot.  The Road Hole gives you the front of the green.

The road hole also has the very thing you have criticized on this site, a place on the green where you can't make a putt at the hole (pin back/left, ball in front with the bunker in between).

And, I disagree with you.  You can hit the right side of the green with a wedge and make a bogey with the same likelihood you could on the Road Hole from the front.

[Tom_Doak]

You can hit the right side of the green with a wedge and make a bogey with the same likelihood you could on the Road Hole from the front.

JC:

No, you couldn't.  If you hit the right side of the green on 14 during the U.S. Open, the ball would come back off the green and twenty yards out in front, and you'd be pitching over the bunker again.  You couldn't putt it safely onto the same tier as the pin without making a ridiculously good putt, if you could get it up there at all.  THAT is not true of The Road Hole.  On the Road Hole, in the worst circumstances you might not be able to putt close to the hole, but you are always able to putt out around the bunker and give yourself a level putt for par, even if it's maybe longer than you'd like.

[JC Jones]

You can hit the right side of the green with a wedge and make a bogey with the same likelihood you could on the Road Hole from the front.

JC:

No, you couldn't.  If you hit the right side of the green on 14 during the U.S. Open, the ball would come back off the green and twenty yards out in front, and you'd be pitching over the bunker again.  You couldn't putt it safely onto the same tier as the pin without making a ridiculously good putt, if you could get it up there at all.  THAT is not true of The Road Hole.  On the Road Hole, in the worst circumstances you might not be able to putt close to the hole, but you are always able to putt out around the bunker and give yourself a level putt for par, even if it's maybe longer than you'd like.

Again, perception.  If the course was in the UK, do you think someone might be more likely to putt it up the hill and on to the green on the 14th at Pebble instead of trying a wedge over the bunker?  Therefore leaving them with a level par putt (though a bit longer than desired).

[Ronald Montesano]

Jim, I'll say "no" to your question, with absolutely zero empirical data to back me up.

Tom raises a titanic point...there was no where to miss at Pebble, whereas front right is playable all day long.

Started to write this before the most recent exchange...I'll just say that I think the Road Hole is fairer than the (let's give it a nickname, shall we?) 14th at Pebble.

[Eric Smith]

I'll just say that I think the Road Hole is fairer than the (let's give it a nickname, shall we?) 14th at Pebble.

capó de un volkswagen?

[Anthony Gray]

  10 years ago they could put the pin on the lower level on 14 at PB. The first few times I played it it was there. I'm not sure if they do that today for the resort golfer or not.I assume for the Open that the green was too fast to place the pin there.

  Anthony

[Adam Clayman]

..there was no where to miss at Pebble, whereas front right is playable all day long.

Revisionist history. Or just plain not correct. There were at least two ideal places to miss one's shot into the 14th. One was the front bunker. The other was long center before the fall off to the rear and left of the right green side bunker.

Tom's comment about the speed of the grass is the salient point.

[Tom_Doak]

Adam:

I'm sorry, but getting yourself to 100 yards in two and then having to deliberately miss into the deep front bunker is not a defense of the hole being any good.

You CAN miss long and slightly right, but the area to miss there is just about as small as the safe area of the green.

[George Pazin]

... the (let's give it a nickname, shall we?) 14th at Pebble.

Usually I'm pretty good at this sort of thing, but I'm struggling here. My best one is K-14, can't say I love it. "5 or 8" might fit the bill as well...

I was surprised more didn't go for the front bunker in 2. Seemed like one of the few times I'd have expected guys to pull out the "just get it as close as possible" tactic, yet most laid up to around 100.

[Anthony Gray]

  The Phantom would tell us to land the ball right of the green and bounce it onto the green. The rough may be thicker there now.

  Anthony

[Anthony Gray]

... the (let's give it a nickname, shall we?) 14th at Pebble.

Usually I'm pretty good at this sort of thing, but I'm struggling here. My best one is K-14, can't say I love it. "5 or 8" might fit the bill as well...

I was surprised more didn't go for the front bunker in 2. Seemed like one of the few times I'd have expected guys to pull out the "just get it as close as possible" tactic, yet most laid up to around 100.

 Can they get there in two?How long is the uphill 2nd shot?

  Anthony