Ballyneal Criticism

[Steve Kline]

Ben - so is or is not a Dell hole?

[Ben Sims]

Ben - so is or is not a Dell hole?

If you tee off from the back of the 14th green...maybe. 

Or if you lay on your belly in the hole in between the tees and the green, it could possibly blind. 

But this I know for sure.  A left pin is blind when you tee off from the furthest left tee.

[Scott Szabo]

Scott - I shot 71 and missed two straight uphill birdie putts from 6-8 feet. Jim could give you a better idea of where we played from but it was all the way back except for 10 I think. On 2 I hit less than full wedge. I can't recall the sixth hole at the moment. Ten I hit a bad drive and 8 iron (again we didn't play that hole all the way back). The first time on I popped up my drive but the second time I think I had less than a full wedge. 17 I hit a 60 degree the first time and 56 the second. 18 I hit a 9 iron and a 3/4 wedge. Pin placements make a difference too.

Nice round for your first visit to Ballyneal - that would have been fun to watch.  You must be long to hit those clubs into those holes.  I guess Doak should have added a few more tees back to stretch it a few hundred more yards for guys like yourself.  For mere mortals such as I, it's plenty long. 

[Scott Szabo]

Ben,

Surely you must be kidding about hole 18 being weak.  None other than Wyatt H. turned to me on the 18th tee and said he thought this was the best 18th hole Doak has ever designed...

[Matt Bosela]

Scott - I shot 71 and missed two straight uphill birdie putts from 6-8 feet. Jim could give you a better idea of where we played from but it was all the way back except for 10 I think. On 2 I hit less than full wedge. I can't recall the sixth hole at the moment. Ten I hit a bad drive and 8 iron (again we didn't play that hole all the way back). The first time on I popped up my drive but the second time I think I had less than a full wedge. 17 I hit a 60 degree the first time and 56 the second. 18 I hit a 9 iron and a 3/4 wedge. Pin placements make a difference too.

Steve,

What kind of wind conditions did you have during your stay?  On #2, was it playing downwind?  I hit it pretty decently but the shortest club I hit into that hole during my five rounds was a 4-iron, with 3-woods and hybrids being the other clubs used.  That said, we had a pretty significant headwind to deal with along with wet and cold conditions.

#17 was also a beast for us when we were there, with hybrids and long irons the norm for all of us.

Did you play the back tee on #15?  What club did you use there?  Into the wind, some of us were considering driver...

[Rob Rigg]

Ben,

I thought 18 was a wonderful finishing hole and there was a lot of drama there over the w/e. While one may be hitting a short iron in - there is certainly strategy off the tee. Play it to the left side of the fairway and you have to face off against the bunkers and the pitch in front of the green. A tough approach, especially uphill. Play it wide right, probably giving up some distance to the pin, and you can potentially run it on - and certainly have a better angle to the pin. The green also has some challenging movement if the pin is on the front right. A brilliant finishing hole.

I don't think being a "third shot course" is a negative thing. In fact, it tends to equalize the ability to score between the stick and higher handicap. It is hard to hit an approach tight, so your short game and putting better be on to score at BN. It makes for an exciting match.

[Thomas Patterson]

I think wind has a lot to do with length at BN.  My one and only trip there, we had the same wind both days...1, 2, 17, and 18 were downwind and everything else into the wind. 

[George Pazin]

In fact, it tends to equalize the ability to score between the stick and higher handicap. It is hard to hit an approach tight, so your short game and putting better be on to score at BN. It makes for an exciting match.

Really? Most sticks have far far better short games than high handicappers.

I can see width and lack of death penalty hazards "favoring" high handicappers (like there is such a thing...), but adding stress to the short game? To me, that all but guarantees the better player will trounce the lesser player (not that that is wrong or a bad thing).

[Richard Choi]

If Ballyneal seemed to easy for you, you must be one hell of a player.  Did you play the long par fours all the way back?  If so, you must be a monster off the tee as well.  I can't imagine having a wedge into 2, 6, 10, 13, 17 or 18.  Most of those are mid to long irons for the masses, if not more.

I will defend Steve here. I have hit wedges as my second shot on all of those holes. It just requires a calm wind (or helping wind) and a fast, firm fairway. If you hit the right speed slot, the ball just goes and goes. I played #16 from 570 yard tee and I got on in two with driver/4 iron. I have played 18th from the very back tee and got on with driver/sand wedge with a slight breeze from behind. And I am certainly not the longest hitter around.

[Scott Szabo]

If Ballyneal seemed to easy for you, you must be one hell of a player.  Did you play the long par fours all the way back?  If so, you must be a monster off the tee as well.  I can't imagine having a wedge into 2, 6, 10, 13, 17 or 18.  Most of those are mid to long irons for the masses, if not more.

I will defend Steve here. I have hit wedges as my second shot on all of those holes. It just requires a calm wind (or helping wind) and a fast, firm fairway. If you hit the right speed slot, the ball just goes and goes. I played #16 from 570 yard tee and I got on in two with driver/4 iron. I have played 18th from the very back tee and got on with driver/sand wedge with a slight breeze from behind. And I am certainly not the longest hitter around.

You've hit wedges into all those holes from the tips?  Wow, maybe I'm the only short-knocker left on the planet.  I can't imagine, without a substantial helping wind, hitting a wedge into 6, 10 or 13, especially, let alone the other three.  I guess all these years sitting behind a desk has made me this way - I suppose a little exercise would go along way

[Richard Choi]

On #6, it was not from the very back, but one of the back tees with helping wind. #10 I did it during the weekend playing from one or two tees up from the very back, but then again I hit a 54' wedge from there. If I can hit the speed slot behind the right bunker, I think I can do it from the very back tee (of course, that target is very very small). On #13, I have done it a few times by getting the right bounce on the left side of the fairway.

It really isn't that hard. With the altitude and heat, my pitching wedge was going about 150 yards. With a little wind, I was hitting PW from 165 yards out. I am guessing Jim, Rob, and David probably could have hit their wedges 170 yards.

[Mike Policano]

The club does have a yardage book that has the code for the sprinkler heads if you are out alone and want to know the distances without a device. It is very similar to Pine Valley in this respect.

My complaint Jim is that Rupert doesn't pick the guitar and sing often enough!

[Jaeger Kovich]

Scott - 18 is great, but its not the best Doak #18.. I thought Riverfront, in Virginia was better... told the same to Wyatt. Still cant believe D^2's ball stayed on top. I was looking at a 2 putt par for extras, what a match!

Rich - I hit 6 and 13 at one point this week, and if I can go 3-wood - 8-iron on #2, a bigger hitter can pull wedge. You've just got to hit a low ball to the far left edge of the fairway. There is no way I hit wedge on 10!

[Greg Tallman]

To help promote frank and honest discussion, let's poke holes in another modern gem.  Here are a few criticisms I've heard about Ballyneal over the past few years, and as recently as yesterday.

- Fairways are too wide, and thus, the course is too easy
I think Doak would enjoy sich a "critique"
- The greens are too slow and not consistent throughout the year
Again going against the grain... this is not a real criticism
- The par 4's are all the same -- either really long and really short.
Interesting, any truth to it?
- The short par 4's all go right-to-left
Hmmmmmm, same is true on all three short 4s at Bahia de los Sueños
- The course has no trees
Simple, call up Tom and see what type of trees he would like to line the fairways with
- The undulations in the greens promote 'goofy golf' and circus shots, thus rewarding indifferent and poor shots and not properly rewarding well-struck golf shots
He coulod have just said they were FUN, no?
- The par 3's are a weakness of the course and all play relatively short

- The greens are 'retarded', since they won't hold a shot hit to the middle of the green (heard this one yesterday)
Fair criticism if true of every green which i suspect is not the case.
- No carts
How about GPS? Waterfalls?
- The Dell template hole shows too much of the green

Any others from those who have played it?  Are these criticisms valid, ridiculous or something in between?
Unfortunately it sounds like pretty much all resort golfers. They like waterfalls, GPS, spoon fed yardages, 5 putting on greens rolling 14 on the stimp, comfort stations with free tequila... and orange pants. You can't please them all and I do not think catering to the masses was the intent at Ballyneal was it?

[Rob Rigg]

In fact, it tends to equalize the ability to score between the stick and higher handicap. It is hard to hit an approach tight, so your short game and putting better be on to score at BN. It makes for an exciting match.

Really? Most sticks have far far better short games than high handicappers.

I can see width and lack of death penalty hazards "favoring" high handicappers (like there is such a thing...), but adding stress to the short game? To me, that all but guarantees the better player will trounce the lesser player (not that that is wrong or a bad thing).

Really? Wow. I have always believed that the putter is a great equalizer between handicaps - especially from long distances. A stick can drive the ball 50 yards farther than a higher handicap and land their ball next to the pin - but when it ends up 15 to 40 feet away, and the higher handicap is in a similar position just off the green, then it becomes a chipping and putting competition. With strokes, I would imagine that the higher handicap has a very good chance of competing against the stick at Ballyneal. Two putts are the norm, one putts are special. JMO.

I asked about those dang yardage books but didn't get anywhere . . . drat.

Like any "links" course the wind plays a huge roll in scoring - I love that aspect bc standard deviations in scoring are much wider than on normal "parkland" courses and there is much more variability in how you attack/navigate from day to day.

[Bill_McBride]

p.s. I'm in Holyoke right now and the course is even more firm and fast than it was during the Yucca a few days ago.  The wind picked up to 20+ mph yesterday afternoon and it made the course a real stern test when combined with the turf conditions.

Did you drive again?  Do you get to vote in Colorado yet?  Who won the Yucca?


Damn, I sound like Anthony!

[Adam Clayman]

I really don't understand this.  If one is required to rely on a caddie for yardage, shouldn't the caddie know the course?  I think sending out unskilled caddies and having them use rangefinders negates a lot of the purity goal.  I have a hard time reconciling the idea of no tee markers while using electronic range finders.  I've been fortunate enough to play several rounds at Ballyneal, and this is my biggest criticism.  

I'm FINE with the idea of paying a kid to carry my bag and support the concept behind doing it.  I just don't understand all the yardage secrecy when a great many of the caddies are not especially knowledgeable.

The golf course is outstanding.

There's no secrecy. As I stated, distance aids are not NOT allowed.

I really don't understand your point.

Are you saying that Ballyneal shouldn't offer different levels of caddies? And only allow caddies that are very familiar with the course to go out and earn a summer's wage?
If you are, that is just not plausible. Caddies can give yardages whether they are golfers or not. They are given basic lessons on where to stand and how to act properly. Familiarity with the course will come, if they are serious about caddying. Most of the new crop I've met this year are smart as a whip. They clearly have their eyes on the Evans prize. And they have about 3 years to prove themselves. Most will probably become 5 star caddies by the end of their first or second year. They weed out a lot of kids who thought it was just going to be an undisciplined walk in the park money making opportunity.

Getting professional caddies at Ballyneal happens when they are really needed. (shoulder season, or, in the case of Cherry Hills, when they were closed during renovations) it's just not busy enough for most of the pros that require double loops everyday to stick around during the hot summer. So who should get to work? The caddy that is in training and shows up when they are called, or, the pro who only wants to hit and run during the busy season?

[John Mayhugh]

I really don't understand this.  If one is required to rely on a caddie for yardage, shouldn't the caddie know the course?  I think sending out unskilled caddies and having them use rangefinders negates a lot of the purity goal.  I have a hard time reconciling the idea of no tee markers while using electronic range finders.  I've been fortunate enough to play several rounds at Ballyneal, and this is my biggest criticism.  

I'm FINE with the idea of paying a kid to carry my bag and support the concept behind doing it.  I just don't understand all the yardage secrecy when a great many of the caddies are not especially knowledgeable.

The golf course is outstanding.

There's no secrecy. As I stated, distance aids are not NOT allowed.    However distance aids are regularly used, but only for the caddies or (as you mentioned earlier) players can sometimes borrow one. 

I really don't understand your point.

Are you saying that Ballyneal shouldn't offer different levels of caddies?   Absolutely not.  Of course a club must have different levels of caddies.

And only allow caddies that are very familiar with the course to go out and earn a summer's wage?  No, I did not say that either. You will have to tell me what you feel is a summer's wage.  I do not think that a caddie should be using a range finder to provide yardages on a course that does not permit distance aids.  This is especially true of experienced caddies.   

If you are, that is just not plausible. Caddies can give yardages whether they are golfers or not.   Of course they can.  Go read my prior post and see where I even suggested that they could not. 

They are given basic lessons on where to stand and how to act properly. Familiarity with the course will come, if they are serious about caddying. Most of the new crop I've met this year are smart as a whip. They clearly have their eyes on the Evans prize. And they have about 3 years to prove themselves. Most will probably become 5 star caddies by the end of their first or second year. They weed out a lot of kids who thought it was just going to be an undisciplined walk in the park money making opportunity.

Getting professional caddies at Ballyneal happens when they are really needed. (shoulder season, or, in the case of Cherry Hills, when they were closed during renovations) it's just not busy enough for most of the pros that require double loops everyday to stick around during the hot summer. So who should get to work? The caddy that is in training and shows up when they are called, or, the pro who only wants to hit and run during the busy season?   This shows a clear misunderstanding of what I was trying to say.  When I say that "I'm fine with paying a kid to carry my bag and support the concept behind doing it," how does that possibly suggest that I think Ballyneal needs professional caddies??

So there is no further misunderstanding, ALL I am contending is this:

1.  Having caddies at Ballyneal makes a lot of sense.  It offers employment, exposure to successful people, exposure to the great game of golf, and the potential for college scholarships for the kids in the area.

2.  Caddies are also necessary when carts are not permitted.  I have NO PROBLEM with walking only courses.

3.  I believe I understand why Ballyneal does not have tee makers, yardage plates, & sprinkler heads with yardages that the players can interpret.  This is a pretty cool concept.  It may not be best for me personally, but it's not my club so I respect what you're trying to do.

4.  It is a little harder for me to understand why yardage books are not shared with players.  My only assumption is that this is to increase the reliance of the player on the caddie.  If so, fine.  Again, that's the club's policy.

5.  I do not understand why the caddies use range finders.  This seems really inconsistent with the policy towards tee markers, yardage plates, sprinkler heads with yardages, and yardage books.  I think that if a caddie cannot learn to read a yardage book (it's not difficult), then they really aren't ready to go out on their own.  Even if you do need to send out kids that cannot look up a yardage from a sprinkler head, they could at least let the player look at the book.

I like Ballyneal very much, but I don't see how range finders fit there. 

[Chip Gaskins]

Ballyneal is a treasure. 

One of only four "10s" in the world IMO.

Walking only is fine.

No yardage markers and tee markets make it unique and who needs them anyway....we could all play with half the clubs we tote around.

Love the brown, firm, and fast. 

More fun than a grown man should have.

All involved should be proud. 

If you don't get it, play it again, you will get it.

[Steve Lang]

  Let me see if i understand this latest colton group..  bunch of players on a great ground game course and most all the bragging/amazement is about hitting long wedge approach shots..  hmmm

p.s. all i rememberfrom last september is 35 mph winds and trying to keep the ball below ~10 yards in the air and the runnnnnn..
p.s.s. and a few balls being blown off the green before a putt could be made  

[Doug Sobieski]

For those that point to a perceived "shortness" of the golf course as a negative, I ask how many rounds you've played there? I agree, with minimal wind, you'll have a lot of short clubs into greens. THOSE are the days when you try to go low, testing how good your short game creativity is. I actually love occasional rounds where the goal is to go really low. With no wind, I expect to make a lot of birdies, and that is FUN for me to have that ability because there are enough windy days where it will break your back. By most accounts, I'm a decent player (on almost every trip, I can count on one round of 72 or better). I've hit driver into both 11 and 15, and 4 iron on #5. I've played the following holes when they were unreachable - 2, 6, 10, 13, 17, 18. I've played 8 where I had PW in, carrying the cross bunker. That kind of variety is awesome. Standing on the 11th tee with a driver in your hands is pretty cool.

FUN is the entire reason to belong to Ballyneal. The variety in scoring conditions is a big part of that.

[Mike Demetriou]

Steve, there were four flights of players at BN last weekend. I'm at 16 and brought up the D Flight. There were some decent sticks playing in C, and I can tell you that it wasn't all wedges into the greens all day.Perhaps for the >4 indexes, but the bottom line is that we played BN without its armor - there was virtually no wind. Don't let that point get away from you when you review the critique of this course.  I know many on this site are accomplished players, but great courses cater to more than just the scratch or near scratch player. 

With a decent wind, I suspect this thread would read much differently for those of us that are piping up. 

[Sean_A]

What?  Are folks saying that one's paid caddie can use a yardage gun, but the golfer cannot?  If so, how bizarre is that?  Can the player use a yardage book/stroke saver?  

Ciao

[Steve Kline]

You must be long to hit those clubs into those holes.  . 

First as I said in almost every post there was virtually no wind the day I payed. I fully understand that is going to make all the difference in the world at BN. But, I'm not that long. An average drive for me carries 245-250. So on a typical course I drive 260-270 but when I play a course like BN or in Scotland I cane easily drive it 300 or more. My ball flight is such that I get lots of roll in F&F conditions. When I played BN if both Jim and I hit a good drive Jim was longer than me. At the US Mid-Am a few years ago I did not see a single player that hit it shorter than me off the tee.

Steve,

What kind of wind conditions did you have during your stay?  On #2, was it playing downwind?  I hit it pretty decently but the shortest club I hit into that hole during my five rounds was a 4-iron, with 3-woods and hybrids being the other clubs used.  That said, we had a pretty significant headwind to deal with along with wet and cold conditions.

#17 was also a beast for us when we were there, with hybrids and long irons the norm for all of us.

Did you play the back tee on #15?  What club did you use there?  Into the wind, some of us were considering driver...

Again virtually no wind. There was a 5-7 mph wind at our back when we played holes 12-16 or so. On 17 I hit the perfect power fade and caught the slope in the fairway to the lower section. I think we played the back tee on 15. We had a slight breeze at our back and the pin was on the very front. So all we wanted to do was carry the ridge. I hit a 5-iron but hit it too low. It didn't carry the ridge by much and rolled all the way over the green.

You've hit wedges into all those holes from the tips?  Wow, maybe I'm the only short-knocker left on the planet.  I can't imagine, without a substantial helping wind, hitting a wedge into 6, 10 or 13, especially, let alone the other three.  I guess all these years sitting behind a desk has made me this way - I suppose a little exercise would go along way

I forgot the 5th hole was the par 3 earlier. I was thinking 5 was the long 4 but it is six. Now that hole had some length to it. If there was a speed slot I never found it. In the second round I hit a very good drive down the right center and had about 205 to the front so I hit a 4-iron. On 10 I think there were two tees behind us and I hit a my drive over the bunker (by accident). On 13 I probably hit my best drive on the second time through of the entire 36 holes.

I've said that in every post pin placements and wind conditions will be a big difference at BN. And I realize that after just one day of play I can't a make a definitive judgement on the ease of play at BN. I hope to go back next year and for future Yuccas to see different conditions and pin placements. I'm sure I'll find the course harder because I played it in the easiest conditions possible. Even if it was that easy all the time I wouldn't care. It's still great fun to play and one of the best courses I've ever played.

[Steve Lang]

  There's no course guide or yardages for the bocci ball field..

given schedule last fall and knowing it'd only be one round and out.. i made my own course guide from downloads and gca discussion threads, and most notably with Adam C on where to find fairway advantages and miss around the greens..  nothing so nice as local knowledge, nothing as much fun as being able to explore it in person.

its probably a good thing that BN is located where it is.. it would be over run if closer to Denver and much more expensive than it already is to further limit play..