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Jim Colton

Ballyneal Criticism
« on: July 14, 2010, 04:12:29 PM »
To help promote frank and honest discussion, let's poke holes in another modern gem.  Here are a few criticisms I've heard about Ballyneal over the past few years, and as recently as yesterday.

- Fairways are too wide, and thus, the course is too easy
- The greens are too slow and not consistent throughout the year
- The par 4's are all the same -- either really long and really short.
- The short par 4's all go right-to-left
- The course has no trees
- The undulations in the greens promote 'goofy golf' and circus shots, thus rewarding indifferent and poor shots and not properly rewarding well-struck golf shots
- The par 3's are a weakness of the course and all play relatively short
- The greens are 'retarded', since they won't hold a shot hit to the middle of the green (heard this one yesterday)
- No carts
- The Dell template hole shows too much of the green :)

Any others from those who have played it?  Are these criticisms valid, ridiculous or something in between?

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2010, 04:18:43 PM »
I rather play Chambers...


I kid, I kid... :)

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2010, 04:21:31 PM »
I won't even go there... (my double entendre of the year.)
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2010, 04:32:22 PM »
...
- The Dell template hole shows too much of the green
...

Well, since Whitten got flack here about his Dell template hole. Turn about is fair play.
Isn't that right Dell S?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tony Weiler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2010, 04:43:42 PM »
I hear it's a Doak 5.  You think he'd do better considering it's a course he designed.   ;D

Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2010, 04:44:42 PM »
The short par fours may all go right to left, but each is unique in its own way.  Totally different green sites for each.

The par 3s are weak by being too short?  140, 170, 210 and 240 - seems like a great variety to me.

Greens are retarded since they won't hold a shot?  Don't get this one at all....
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2010, 04:45:30 PM »
I rather play Chambers...


I kid, I kid... :)

Would you have a better chance of beating Mr. Moore at Chambers than you did at BN?  ;D
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2010, 04:49:10 PM »
I would have played there by now if they had carts. :'(
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2010, 05:08:13 PM »
Looks too brown. Do they take care of the place?

Anthony Fowler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2010, 05:09:41 PM »
Hi Jim,

Some of these are pretty funny.  I know this is meant to be a silly thread and Ballyneal is one of our sacred cows, but I'll try to give a serious answer.  Some of my criticisms are related to the ones listed, but I'll try to articulate them a little more clearly.  Before I start, I must say that I really love Ballyneal, and I am being overly critical for the sake of discussion.

1)  The short par 4's do actually leave something to be desired.  They're all fun holes with great greens, but none of the them really force the player to think hard on the tee box.  You can just blast a driver somewhere just short of the green on most of them.  None of the them are quite drivable without an unusual wind and none of them tempt the player to hit something really short or play well away from the hole.  Perhaps by tightening the landing area in a couple places, BN could force the player to think a little more on the tee, particularly on the short 4's.

2) The greens really are on the slow and hairy side.  There's so much undulation that they don't need to be fast, but if they were a little smoother and a little faster, they'd be a lot more fun to putt on.  Stone Eagle's greens have similar undulations (perhaps slightly less severe) but they are much faster/smoother and they are a much more fun to play.

3) Despite the person who thinks the greens are "retarded", I was actually surprised at how easily the ball stops on the green.  A well struck 7 iron will land and stop within 10 feet of where it landed.  I would love to see the turf play firmer, because the greens are designed to receive shots that are bouncing in.  

These last two criticisms have to do with maintenance only, and the one time that I visited may not have been representative.  However, I don't imagine that the turf get's much firmer than the dry, 95 degree days that I was there in mid June.  






Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2010, 05:10:45 PM »
Would you have a better chance of beating Mr. Moore at Chambers than you did at BN?  ;D

Only place where I could beat Dan is at a putt-putt.

Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2010, 05:14:59 PM »
Hi Jim,

Some of these are pretty funny.  I know this is meant to be a silly thread and Ballyneal is one of our sacred cows, but I'll try to give a serious answer.  Some of my criticisms are related to the ones listed, but I'll try to articulate them a little more clearly.  Before I start, I must say that I really love Ballyneal, and I am being overly critical for the sake of discussion.

1)  The short par 4's do actually leave something to be desired.  They're all fun holes with great greens, but none of the them really force the player to think hard on the tee box.  You can just blast a driver somewhere just short of the green on most of them.  None of the them are quite drivable without an unusual wind and none of them tempt the player to hit something really short or play well away from the hole.  Perhaps by tightening the landing area in a couple places, BN could force the player to think a little more on the tee, particularly on the short 4's.

2) The greens really are on the slow and hairy side.  There's so much undulation that they don't need to be fast, but if they were a little smoother and a little faster, they'd be a lot more fun to putt on.  Stone Eagle's greens have similar undulations (perhaps slightly less severe) but they are much faster/smoother and they are a much more fun to play.

3) Despite the person who thinks the greens are "retarded", I was actually surprised at how easily the ball stops on the green.  A well struck 7 iron will land and stop within 10 feet of where it landed.  I would love to see the turf play firmer, because the greens are designed to receive shots that are bouncing in.  

These last two criticisms have to do with maintenance only, and the one time that I visited may not have been representative.  However, I don't imagine that the turf get's much firmer than the dry, 95 degree days that I was there in mid June.  







Anthony,

You must have played BN after a rainstorm or period of rain, as most of the time you cannot possibly stop a 7-iron shot within 10 feet of where you land the ball, unless you hit into the face of a mound.

As for the short-par 4s not forcing though on the tee, I couldn't disagree more.  How many different ways are there to play #7, all depending on where the pin is located?  Same with #14 - lay up short of the centerline bunker, or try and get close to the green.  Depends on where the pin is.  You can get out of position so easily on these holes taking what could be considered a good birdie chance and ending up with a difficult par. 

Just my two cents....
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Steve Strasheim

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2010, 05:16:52 PM »
There is no slot machines.

Any place with Bally in the name should have slot machines.

Anthony Fowler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2010, 05:22:39 PM »
Hi Scott,

I definitely did not play BN after a period of rain.  It was hot and dry for the entire week that I was in Colorado.  My caddie kept telling me to take distance off the approaches because the ball will bounce.  The greens certainly bounced more than most, but not as much as the caddies seemed to expect.  My playing partner and I played everything to land on the green just a few yards short of the pin every time we had a full swing approach.

I agree with you on 14 but not on 7.  I can't imagine a pin position where wouldn't want to hit driver on 7.  The landing bowl for a driver is quite large and forgiving, and it is not difficult to get to any pin from there.  I'd certainly rather have that pitch to any pin compared to a full wedge.  

Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2010, 05:26:31 PM »
Hi Scott,

I definitely did not play BN after a period of rain.  It was hot and dry for the entire week that I was in Colorado.  My caddie kept telling me to take distance off the approaches because the ball will bounce.  The greens certainly bounced more than most, but not as much as the caddies seemed to expect.  My playing partner and I played everything to land on the green just a few yards short of the pin every time we had a full swing approach.

I agree with you on 14 but not on 7.  I can't imagine a pin position where wouldn't want to hit driver on 7.  The landing bowl for a driver is quite large and forgiving, and it is not difficult to get to any pin from there.  I'd certainly rather have that pitch to any pin compared to a full wedge.  

We played this weekend and balls were bouncing all over the place.  Also, see one of Jim's items regarding not being able to stop a ball on the green.

I would think a back pin on 7 would make it very difficult if you hit driver and don't get it enough to the left.  I would think a layup with a 3-wood or something less would be the play.  The further right you go the more difficult the play to the back pin I would imagine, although in my many plays I have yet to get the back pin, so I may be wrong.  
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 05:55:04 PM by Scott Szabo »
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2010, 05:27:42 PM »
I heard that the native surrounding the fairways is becoming more lush and harder to find your ball in and to hit out of.

Haven't been there since 2006. but the playable native was a cool feature....

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2010, 05:40:39 PM »
Sean, it was certainly more lush this year. I lost more balls than my previous trips.

Scott, great call on the back pin. I drove to the front left of the green on #7 and with the pin in the back, it was a very difficult approach.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2010, 05:51:11 PM »

Scott, great call on the back pin. I drove to the front left of the green on #7 and with the pin in the back, it was a very difficult approach.

Richard, did you try to play it off the left slope and then the backstop to get back to that pin on #7?  Way too much fun!

Jim Colton

Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2010, 05:53:33 PM »
Anthony, I wasn't trying to be funny. With the exception of the last one, these are all real criticisms I've heard about BN.

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2010, 05:55:51 PM »
Richard, did you try to play it off the left slope and then the backstop to get back to that pin on #7?  Way too much fun!

I would have, if I was on the right side, but from the angle I had, if I played it off the left slope, either I would have hit it through the green or end up in the middle of the green. It would have been very difficult to have it stop at the top level.

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2010, 05:56:04 PM »
I have two criticisms of Ballyneal and neither are architecture-related:

(1) without a caddie, the yardage markers are incomprehensible (at least they used to be); and
(2) it can be extremely hot out there in eastern Colorado.  

Jon Spaulding

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2010, 06:03:00 PM »
1) I'm not allowed to play with Wyatt
2) No lightning shelters on the front 9
3) No beer cart girl
4) They leave beards in your room
5) No foie gras cous cous
6) Jim is too busy for us little people
7) No Sand Hills visors allowed
8 ) Younger caddies laser the yardage while you're on the putting surface
9) They sure let the riff-raff in
10) You score it a Doak 10 whilst there.....or perish
You'd make a fine little helper. What's your name?

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2010, 06:04:14 PM »
I have two criticisms of Ballyneal and neither are architecture-related:

(1) without a caddie, the yardage markers are incomprehensible (at least they used to be); and
(2) it can be extremely hot out there in eastern Colorado.  

These days the caddies carry lasers and the golf shop will loan you one.  When I was there in June it was in the 50's!

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2010, 06:17:34 PM »
I wish that BN had 150 markers to the center of the green as a point of reference.

If you have caddies then you get the yardage - if not you need your own gun or whatever.

Personally, I don't like using a gun and I don't need exact yardage but while you are still learning the course it can be challenging to "estimate" yardage accurately.

While I do support the "no yardage" idea - I think, in reality, I am more in the "a little help on yardage is good" camp - meaning a 150, maybe a 200 plate or something, would be very helpful.

BN is a "feel" course but ballpark is helpful.


Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal Criticism
« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2010, 06:25:29 PM »
Would you have a better chance of beating Mr. Moore at Chambers than you did at BN?  ;D

Only place where I could beat Dan is at a putt-putt.

I'm surpised you say that after the display of 3 putts and missed 4 footers I put on for you Sunday.  And I'm not blaming the greens, it was just a bad day with the short stick. 
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin