A proposed partnership of Toomey and Flynn and Hugh Alison?

[TEPaul]

"February 10, 1922

Dear Hugh:
              We had a most interesting visit from Toomey and Flynn Wednesday. I think they are starting out with the right ideas in mind and I am sure they will succeed.
                                                                           Very Truly Yours,
                                                                                       Vice Chairman"
RAO








"February 10, 1922


Dear Hugh:

                 We had a very interesting meeting with Mr Toomey Wednesday and I think have matters all straightened out to his satisfaction. I would regard it as exceedingly foolish for Mr Toomey and Mr. Flynn to to into business with Allison on any such scheme as Allison has proposed to them, and I think our conference has convinced them of the utter inadvisability of going ahead on the basis of Allison's proposition.

                                                                              Very Truly Yours,
                                                                                         Chairman"

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Thanks for sharing those letters.

Any insight as to why this might have been deemed as a bad idea?

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
Thanks for sharing those letters.
Any insight as to why this might have been deemed as a bad idea?"



Mike:

No I don't because I really don't even know what Alison's proposal or proposition (to Toomey and Flynn) was. Piper and Oakley and both Wilson brothers discussed it enough in their correspondence but they never actually mentioned what Alison's proposal was. Since Piper and Oakley were both basically agronomy guys one would suspect Alison's proposition had something to do with agronomy or tapping into their research which Toomey and Flynn were very much a part of but on the other hand at that point they were all beginning to talk about the subject of architecture in various contexts as well.

It's a bit odd that they all thought Alison's proposal or proposition to Flynn was a bad idea because there is no quesiton at all that they all liked Alison a lot as a man---basically calling him a real gentleman.

[Tom MacWood]

The letter was written around the time Alison modified PVGC - from what I understand Flynn was involved in carryout some of that work. It was also around time Alison redesigned Chevy Chase. I suspect Huntingdon Valley was redesigned around this time too and that Flynn was involved in carrying out the work.

Being Alison's dedicated construction associate would have been a bad idea because Flynn had aspirations of getting into design. Ironically Flynn did build Burning Tree for Alison in 1923.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom Paul,

Perhaps Alison suggested that they discuss their work on GCA?   

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

In case you didn't know it, in 1922 when this proposal or proposition of Alison's was made to Flynn or Toomey and Flynn (or mentioned in this correspondence) William Flynn didn't just have 'aspirations' of getting into golf course architecture, he'd been in it for a number of years. He may not have been the best known architect on the block at that time but he was well beyond 'aspirations' in 1922.

And you're the guy who keeps calling himself on here an 'expert researcher/historian' on golf course architecture? Heaven help us!

By the way, can you give me or anyone any specific documentation on why you said Alison's proposal or proposition to Flynn or Toomey and Flynn involved them doing just construction work for Alison? I don't doubt that may've been his proposal or a logical propostion to them but do you actually have anything that indicates that is what it was or even implies it or is THAT just another example of your speculation that you try to make look like fact?

Frankly, I expect you will ignore that question, as well, as you have most of the other ones that actually delve into much of what you say on here that you seem to try to make look like it has some sort of historical or factual validity to it.

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
You're right he had designed some local golf courses. But he was also a high profile construction man, who'd built courses for Alison and Travis at the time the proposal was made. Alison did not need someone to help him with design he needed someone he could trust to build his golf courses.

[Joe Bausch]

TEP
You're right

I'm now looking for a star in the east.

 

[Mike Cirba]

Joe,

Uh huh.  

Another thread, same story.

Perhaps we need a GCA moratorium on threads of historic interest.   

[Tom MacWood]

I've never had a problem acknowledging TEP when he is right, it just doesn't happen that often.

The one thing Colt, Mackenzie, and Alison understood was the importance of a talented construction team. Throughout his career Colt relied on Franks and Harris Brothers for consistent results, and in particular on William Murray. One of the first things Mackenzie did when coming to America was to set up the American G Construction Co with Hunter, which mirrored his British G Construction Co headed by his brother Charles. And later when venturing east he was connected at the hip with Wendell Miller.

[TEPaul]

"TEP
You're right he had designed some local golf courses. But he was also a high profile construction man, who'd built courses for Alison and Travis at the time the proposal was made."



Tom MacWood:

I did not know Flynn was a 'high profile construction man' before he was known as a designer of courses. What was he so well known for as a construction man before he designed courses and what were the courses he constructed for Travis and Alison?  

[TEPaul]

You just want to try try to divert the subject by throwing those Colt construction people on the wall, don't you, Tom MacWood? Are they really any more historically accurate that Tom, Dick and Harry? 


From an earlier post:

"Can you give me or anyone any specific documentation on why you said Alison's proposal or proposition to Flynn or Toomey and Flynn involved them doing just construction work for Alison? I don't doubt that may've been his proposal or a logical propostion to them but do you actually have anything that indicates that is what it was or even implies it or is THAT just another example of your speculation that you try to make look like fact?"



You just want to avoid the questions to those statements you made, don't you? 

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
I've read those same letters. I don't have anything that specifically mentions what Alison's proposition to Flynn was, I just know Alison's (and the others) modus operandi and Flynn's involvement in the construction of CHA's courses before and after that letter. It makes no sense that Alison would ask him to be his architectural partner. Why, what would he gain? If Flynn was some high profile architect who had some cache and/or big time connections maybe it would make sense, but basically he was an unknown architect at the time. Even that wouldn't make any sense considering CHA was already partnered with most high profile architect in the world.

I'm sorry to throw out those names with Colt. Anyone familiar with Colt's career would know all those names. Colt did a similar thing when he came to America earlier on, he hooked up with the construction arm of Carters. I'm pretty sure Carters was involved in the construction of all his N.American courses during those years. By the way in one of the later Piper & Oakley letters Leonard Macomber writes to tell them he just landed two big projects for Alison in Chicago and they may use Toomey & Flynn for the construction work. There is also hint in one of those letters that Alison may have been the architect of McLean's Friendship golf course in DC (he was interested in the job). If I'm not mistaken Flynn had some association with that course too.

[TEPaul]

"Being Alison's dedicated construction associate would have been a bad idea because Flynn had aspirations of getting into design. Ironically Flynn did build Burning Tree for Alison in 1923."


Anyone who would make a statement like Flynn had aspirations of getting into design in 1922 should not be considered to know much about American architects.

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
I'm sorry for your confusion. Flynn had aspirations to be a golf architect, rather than a greens expert/construction man who dabbled in design on the side or in this case a construction man for a top tier architect.

[TEPaul]

"TEP
I'm sorry for your confusion. Flynn had aspirations to be a golf architect, rather than a greens expert/construction man who dabbled in design on the side or in this case a construction man for a top tier architect.


Tom MacWood:

Obviously you don't know much about William Flynn or his business and career. However, if you ever want to know I suggest you get in contact with particularly Wayne Morrison.

It also seems you don't know much about Hugh Alison or his career over here either.

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