Private club architecture---public or municipal architecture and the architects

[DMoriarty]

TEPaul:   Last night (about 1:30 a.m your time) you posted:

"David Moriarty:    I did offer you an "olive branch" of sorts but I do not recall offering you an "olive branch" or an opportunity to become involved with the USGA Architecture Archive . . .  I think you are mixed up on what I said on here about suggesting some participation on your part with the USGA Architecture Archieve".

You do not recall asking me to become involved with the USGA Architectural Archive? You think I'm mixed up?  Really?

Here is what you had posted 48 hours before, again around 1:30 a.m. Eastern Time:

"I'm going to give you another shot right here, Moriarty? The shot and question to you is do you want to help the USGA Architecture Archive research architecture and courses? And if not, why not? . . . I'm willing to let bygones be bygones if we can all work in a collaborative mode and I feel the USGA Architecture Archive and doing research for it is the trick, the key and the vehicle. . . . Are you willing to go along with that and if not why not? . . ."

Huh?  How is it that you cannot remember what you posted even 48 hours before?  And about something supposedly so important to you as the USGA Architecture Archive?  And why is it that you were treating this Architecture Archive as if it was your own personal fiefdom?

As for your other "olive branch," the two of us corroborating on a piece about CBM's personal life, thanks but no thanks.  How could anyone productively corroborate with someone who is so out of control that he has no idea what he says or does over a 48 hour span?  Besides, your supposed olive branches have proven poison in the past (remember your made up Canadian research expert and your plan to have me send you all my posts for vetting and pre-approval? Those were the days . . .) I've long ago learned my lesson.  

Most importantly, we have irreconcilably different "interests."  Your "interest" in CBM's personal life seems based on nothing more than gossip, innuendo, misunderstanding, and misinterpretation, and serves an agenda not necessarily related to reality.  If your "interest" is based upon more than that, then you've been holding out on us. (Unfortunately for the USGA Architecture Archive project, your approach to some of the great courses seems similar.)  I am interested in the history of golf course design, not gossip or propaganda.

But go ahead and write your own piece on CBM's personal life.  After all, you have been promising you would for years and years now but haven't managed it yet.   If you ever get around to it, you might even get the "compare and contrast" you desire in response.

[TEPaul]

David Moriarty:


It's quite explainable really. You and I might have some misunderstanding about the nature and structure of the USGA Architecture Archive. I am all for ANYONE anywhere being willing and able to make contributions to it that may be both interesting and passably accurate historically. But there is a committee in place that has been given the responsibility to decide on such things.

After I offered you that “olive branch” the following was your response:



“TEPaul, in another thread you offered an me an "olive branch;" something about me getting involved in the USGA's architecture archive project.  I am not sure I understand what you were suggesting, but generally I would be glad to help the USGA in any way I can, provided I felt I could make a positive contribution and that the project was advancing best interests of golf.  Honestly, though, I have serious reservations about this project and am particularly concerned about the willingness and ability of a few of those involved to actually compile and produce a complete, accurate, and relevant record of the history of these old courses.  

That said, it is possible that I have the wrong impression and I would be glad to discuss it with someone from the project. However, for what should be obvious reasons, I have no interest in discussing the project with you or Wayne.”



Wayne and I, amongst others, happen to be on that committee and if the above is your approach to the USGA’s Architecture Archive and its  Committee, by, in effect, admitting up front you will only deal with some members of it and not others; well then, I guess you are going to be basically shit out of luck there, fella! Perhaps what you should devote your time and efforts to in the future is to write a new iteration of Dale Carnegie's book entitled "How to Win Friends and Influence People While Constantly Burning All Your Bridges To Them."  

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

For your list to have any validity at all to my point you're trying to debunk, you really need to stop adding courses after the start of the Great Depression.

You also really need to stop adding courses that were resorts.   The following is from the Chicago Tribune, June 1927.

You can keep whatever you want for all I care, but it's not relevant to anything I ever claimed here the way you're approaching this.  





If you really want to discuss this seriously, you need to start by throwing the American Golf Guide away as a primary source, and those 1950s Travel Guides, as well, and dig a bit deeper.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
I thought you said Cobbs Creek was superior to Belvedere.

Do you know if the Belvedere Hotel was connected to the Belvedere GC? The LIRR advertised the Salisbury Links and there was no connection there.

[Mike Cirba]

Pasadena is another one that really doesn't belong.

It was not a resort, per se, but actually a course built as part of a planned resort community and opened in 1925.

It was funded by St. Petersburg hotels, most conspicuously the next-door Hotel Ralyat.

It seemed such a good idea that the Brigantine Country Club, the first planned community in the northeast (based on Pasadena), went down to see the course and commissioned Stiles and Van Kleek to build a replica of the course along the Jersey shore.  

I'm not sure what happened, but Brigantine when opened in 1927 didn't turn out looking anything like Pasadena when all was said and done, although it's a course near and dear to my heart for personal sentimental reasons.

Anyway...by early 1929 the course at Pasadena (which such big names as Walter Hagen and Joe Kirkwood behind it) didn't open, because the hotels in the area refused to fund it any longer, citing the large advantage the adjacent Hotel Ralyat had for prospective players.

Soon after, the Hotel Ralyat went into foreclosure, later in 1929.

No golf course, no hotel.


Tom,

just saw your note...I do think the original Cobb's was slightly superior to the original Belvedere (which I agree would be better with the original bunkering), but if you're wanting to have a discussion I thought that we agreed resort courses were out of play?

The ad refers to the new golf course, which opened that year.    I would think other vacationers in the resort town of Charlevoix might be able to gain access, as well, but not sure how that was structured.


by the way, by 1930 a lot was already happening both good and bad around public courses, mostly bad.   For instance, Lake Chabot was holding benefit tournaments to aid the unemployed, and I do know that very quickly courses that were funded by cities or private individuals sometimes even sat idle (witness Pasadena) through those years.  

Ironically, the exact same thing happened to Brigantine CC, which didn't reopen until the 1950s when Garrett Renn took Stiles/Van Kleek's original plans and re-created the course out of the overgrown muck.

That is why I selected it as a cut off date.

For purposes of discussion, I'd be happy to discuss any of the following in detail;

Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting  (San Francisco, Ca)
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas   (Los Angeles, Ca)
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke   (Oakland, Ca)
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell  (Pasadena, Ca)
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Montebello Park (1928) - M.Behr  (Montebello, Ca.)
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson  (Colorado Springs, Co)
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross  (Jacksonville, Fl)
Mount Plymouth (1925) - W.Clark  (Mt. Plymouth, Fl)
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross  (Savannah, Ga)
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil  (Glencoe, Il)
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow  (Palos Park, Il)
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman  (Glenview, Il)
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie  (W.Chicago, Il)
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford  (Davenport, Ia)
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson  (Des Moines, Ia)
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell  (Indianapolis, In)
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil  (South Bend, In)
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross  (Detroit, Mi)
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark  (Minneapolis, Mn)
Keller (1929) - P.Coates  (St. Paul, Mn)
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis  (Minneapolis, Mn)
Gulf Hills (1927) - J.Daray  (Biloxi, Ms)
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis  (St. Louis, Mo)
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross  (Asheville, NC)
Community (1912) - W.Hoare  (Dayton, Oh)
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross  (Youngstown, Oh)
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves  (Cleveland, Oh)
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson  (Cleveland, Oh)
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves  (Parma, Oh)
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber  (Canton, Oh)
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan  (Portland, Or)
Cobbs Creek (1916) - H.Wilson   (Philadelphia, Pa)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler  (Hermitage, Pa)
Stevens Park (1924)                     (Dallas, TX)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke  (Dallas, Tx)
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast  (San Antonio, Tx)
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen  (Milwaukee, Wi)
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris  (Janesville, Wi)


Incidentally, I would agree with you and David that of the contenders, the ones in California were likely the strongest, along with Eastmoreland, Brackenridge (although I've played it and don't think the land is really very good, despite Tilly's efforts), and possibly Tam O'Shanter in PA.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
I think mine was fair question...why not answer it?  Here are two advertisements, the first from 1924, one year before Belvedere GC was established and two or three year prior to the course opening. The second is from 1930; was The Inn also affiliated with the resort? Keep throwing what you can against the wall eventually something will stick.

[Tom MacWood]

What hotel funded Pasadena GC?

Why should a daily fee golf course built as part of a planned community be excluded?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

My point is that by definition, these are resort courses.  

Cleveland Heights is another example... a course built as an integral part of a planned real estate/hotel/resort community designed to spur vacation travel, home sales, and the like.  

In the case of Belvedere, "The Inn" may very well have had golf privileges.

Of course, in town there was also the Charlevoix GC, which is a fun nine-holer.

[Mike Cirba]

What hotel funded Pasadena GC?

Tom,

I haven't quite figured out how to cut and paste from this site, but here's the link;

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=BGoxAAAAIBAJ&sjid=zE0DAAAAIBAJ&pg=6756,5279995&dq=golf+pasadena+hotel+petersburg&hl=en

Here's more...

The course was to be auctioned off for $1000

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ybEtAAAAIBAJ&sjid=FdgFAAAAIBAJ&pg=5744,1899676&dq=golf+pasadena+hotel+petersburg&hl=en

[Tom MacWood]

Why should a daily fee golf course built as part of planned community be excluded? Salisbury Links was part of a planned community.

[Mike Cirba]

Why should a daily fee golf course built as part of planned community be excluded? Salisbury Links was part of a planned community.

Tom,

That's exactly my point, and why I suggested earlier that Salisbury Links would most likely be considered a resort course as that article stated.

I think there is a tremendous difference between a public course built to service all the people of any socioeconomic group near a major population center versus a course built to try as part of a planned resort community strategy to attract well-to-do vacationers, second home-buyers, and other hoi polloi.

In a way, these were resorts on a larger scale than places like Greenbrier or Pinehurst, but also meant to be idyllic communities where the rich could have all of their vacation needs met, or more hopefully, a place to buy a winter home, and many of the articles around places like Pasadena and the like talk about the exclusivity of the communities.

Conversely, many of the true public courses of the era were either free, or charged some ridiculously low fee for "locker privileges" or some such thing to keep the real riff-raff away.

[Tom MacWood]

That was a hell of a try: golf + pasadena + hotel + petersburg.

That is pretty funny, but I don't think the golf course was part of a hotel. The golf course project was funded by developer Jack Taylor.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Are you really suggesting these were separate, independent enterprises without direct economic dependencies?  

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=9ZkLAAAAIBAJ&sjid=f1QDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3570,1152232&dq=golf+pasadena+hotel+petersburg&hl=en

[Tom MacWood]

Like I predicted a few days ago, before you know it we will only have courses east of the Mississippi, north of the Mason-Dixon, built before America's entry into WWI and inland.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Courses built by rich people solely for rich people is not what I consider a public course.   

Sorry to have created confusion, but I think the lines back then were a bit clearer than what you suggest.

[Tom MacWood]

What do you have against rich people? The Old course was enjoyed by the very rich and the very poor.

[Peter Pallotta]

The 'truth' seems to lie somewhere in the middle.  I think it may be anachronistic to project back onto the 1920s the concept of the public-access courses that are part of today's planned communities; and it seems a bit misguided to ignore the socio-economic differences between the golfing population (and golfing ethos) of the 1920s and the explosion of golf as an everyman's game (post, say, Arnold Palmer, in the 1960s).  But on the other hand, it does seem to me that putting too-fine a point on what qualifies as a public course (or a municipal course, or a semi-private course) of the 1920s is a bit arbitrary and not very helpful. After all, if you asked the average man on the street his definition of a public course, he might simply say that it was any course that wasn't officially (and expensively) private. Not much help, this post - just my 2 cents.

Peter  

[Mike Cirba]

What do you have against rich people? The Old course was enjoyed by the very rich and the very poor.

Tom,

Not a darn thing.  Some of my best friends are rich people.

But I do think that courses opened to be places to play for everyone, such as the Old Course, had been definition some degree of egalitarianism and affordability once onto the property (like the Old Course, which hosted Kings and Cobblers almost since inception), and I don't think exclusive resort communities fall into this category.

Peter,

Yes, it is a bit blurry, but hopefully this explains it slightly better.

Tom/All,

Since this whole topic and ongoing flurry of counter-activity was spurred by my comment that before the 1930s and the Great Depression, Cobb's Creek was believed by many observers to be the best public course in the country, I think I should be able to explain what I meant by "public course", and the specific timeframe I was referring to without others trying to define it for me.

I do hope that some of what I've provided this evening helped to make my contention clearer, and I remain interested in discussing anything about comparative public golf courses of that era. 

Thanks.

[Mike Cirba]

By the way, I think the list of public courses that hosted the US Public Links is a prime example of the type of courses I was referring to, and is self-explanatory.

You don't see resort type courses here, or resort community courses, until modern times, probably starting around 1980 with Edgewood Tahoe, which I'm sure was a marketing move by that resort.

However, most of the courses listed are exactly the type of true public courses that drew my original comparison.

http://www.usapl.org/history/past-champions/index.html

[Phil_the_Author]

"Why should a daily fee golf course built as part of planned community be excluded? Salisbury Links was part of a planned community."

Tom, what planned community would that have been for which the Saisbury daily fee courses were SPECIFICALLY built?

Also, what has been overlooked is that Salisbury served as the course used by guests of the Garden City Hotel with transportation arranged for by the hotel for them.

Mike, when you payed Brackenridge Park it had been substantially altered due to land being taken over by the city for a highway. The restoration done by Colligan is stunning and remarkable. Change some of the photos from color to black and white and you'd think you were looking at Tilly's handiwork. Unfortunately three holes have been lost forever... It was a VERY good course for the time period from the teens though the thirties...

[Mike Cirba]

Phil,

If you like the restoration, I'll be sure to visit Brack again next time I'm in San Antonio.   

I do realize the course I played had been quite compromised from the original, and I'd be interested in anything you have that detailed the original course so I can see specifically what had been lost.

Thanks!

[Peter Pallotta]

Mike - fair enough, but might I make a suggestion, i.e. take a 'positive' approach to this. Since the thread has morphed into something else (as almost all threads do at some point), why not let Tom M have his list (and his definition) while you re-visit YOUR list. What I mean is, can you produce a list of those courses that YOU consider true public courses built before 1930 -- that list would include the courses that hosted the Publinx, but are there any more? How many (if any) from Tom M's ever increasing list would you now add to YOUR list? And outside of Tom's list, what other courses upon reflection do you now consider fitting your criteria? I think such a list would be useful. (And sorry, if you have produced one already I have missed it).

Sorry, Mike, I see that you've already taken my suggestion   For the others who might be, like me, increasingly liable to miss posts, here it is again:

Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting  (San Francisco, Ca)
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas   (Los Angeles, Ca)
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke   (Oakland, Ca)
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell  (Pasadena, Ca)
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Montebello Park (1928) - M.Behr  (Montebello, Ca.)
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson  (Colorado Springs, Co)
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross  (Jacksonville, Fl)
Mount Plymouth (1925) - W.Clark  (Mt. Plymouth, Fl)
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross  (Savannah, Ga)
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil  (Glencoe, Il)
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow  (Palos Park, Il)
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman  (Glenview, Il)
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie  (W.Chicago, Il)
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford  (Davenport, Ia)
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson  (Des Moines, Ia)
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell  (Indianapolis, In)
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil  (South Bend, In)
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross  (Detroit, Mi)
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark  (Minneapolis, Mn)
Keller (1929) - P.Coates  (St. Paul, Mn)
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis  (Minneapolis, Mn)
Gulf Hills (1927) - J.Daray  (Biloxi, Ms)
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis  (St. Louis, Mo)
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross  (Asheville, NC)
Community (1912) - W.Hoare  (Dayton, Oh)
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross  (Youngstown, Oh)
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves  (Cleveland, Oh)
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson  (Cleveland, Oh)
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves  (Parma, Oh)
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber  (Canton, Oh)
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan  (Portland, Or)
Cobbs Creek (1916) - H.Wilson   (Philadelphia, Pa)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler  (Hermitage, Pa)
Stevens Park (1924)                     (Dallas, TX)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke  (Dallas, Tx)
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast  (San Antonio, Tx)
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen  (Milwaukee, Wi)
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris  (Janesville, Wi)

Peter

[Tom MacWood]

"Why should a daily fee golf course built as part of planned community be excluded? Salisbury Links was part of a planned community."

Tom, what planned community would that have been for which the Saisbury daily fee courses were SPECIFICALLY built?

Also, what has been overlooked is that Salisbury served as the course used by guests of the Garden City Hotel with transportation arranged for by the hotel for them.

Mike, when you payed Brackenridge Park it had been substantially altered due to land being taken over by the city for a highway. The restoration done by Colligan is stunning and remarkable. Change some of the photos from color to black and white and you'd think you were looking at Tilly's handiwork. Unfortunately three holes have been lost forever... It was a VERY good course for the time period from the teens though the thirties...

AT Stewart was the guiding force behind the development of Garden City, which was a planned community. After his death his heirs formed the Garden City Company to carry out his original vision. The GCC built Salisbury Links in 1907.

[Mike Cirba]

Peter,

Good suggestion!

Seriously, thanks for trying to bring some positivity to this discussion...it's most appreciated. 

[Mike Cirba]

Added Pelham Bay (NY) back to the list.


Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting  (San Francisco, Ca)
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas   (Los Angeles, Ca)
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke   (Oakland, Ca)
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell  (Pasadena, Ca)
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Montebello Park (1928) - M.Behr  (Montebello, Ca.)
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson  (Colorado Springs, Co)
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross  (Jacksonville, Fl)
Mount Plymouth (1925) - W.Clark  (Mt. Plymouth, Fl)
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross  (Savannah, Ga)
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil  (Glencoe, Il)
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow  (Palos Park, Il)
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman  (Glenview, Il)
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie  (W.Chicago, Il)
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford  (Davenport, Ia)
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson  (Des Moines, Ia)
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell  (Indianapolis, In)
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil  (South Bend, In)
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross  (Detroit, Mi)
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark  (Minneapolis, Mn)
Keller (1929) - P.Coates  (St. Paul, Mn)
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis  (Minneapolis, Mn)
Gulf Hills (1927) - J.Daray  (Biloxi, Ms)
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis  (St. Louis, Mo)
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross  (Asheville, NC)
Pelham Bay (1908) - L Van Etten (Bronx, NY)
Community (1912) - W.Hoare  (Dayton, Oh)
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross  (Youngstown, Oh)
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves  (Cleveland, Oh)
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson  (Cleveland, Oh)
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves  (Parma, Oh)
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber  (Canton, Oh)
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan  (Portland, Or)
Cobbs Creek (1916) - H.Wilson   (Philadelphia, Pa)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler  (Hermitage, Pa)
Stevens Park (1924)                     (Dallas, TX)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke  (Dallas, Tx)
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast  (San Antonio, Tx)
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen  (Milwaukee, Wi)
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris  (Janesville, Wi)