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Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
This may be a sticky topic, but I think if everyone just stays focused and calm, we can have a really productive talk.

Preface:  I am NOT referring to any particular person, course, incident, or anything else...I just want to see what answers we as an intelligent body politic protecting and preserving great architectural tenets and histories might formulate.

How do we know - decades later - what old newspaper accounts to trust and which ones to discard?  Newspapers are usually secondary sources, not primary sources.  Someone else is reporting what they heard or saw, usually what they were told by people they interviewed and research they conducted.  But newspapers screw things up all the time.

Example:  today two separate newspapers made a pretty big mistake.  They said Spain went through the entire World Cup tournament winning every game after Switzerland 1-0.  But that's just flat out wrong.  They won the knockout stages 1-0, but they beat Honduras 2-0 and Chile 2-1.  I had to correct two guys around the water cooler today.  They said, "well the paper said it.  how would they get it wrong?"  So I pulled up the scores and they said, "well how about that."

Another example:  in one of my recent cases, we had three people testify about what person x said.  All three were standing right there listening to his story, and their responses were no more than 10 minutes after person X spoke.

Two listeners told one story, but the third person said something completely different, something so far out of line from what person x said it was hard to believe he had been right there listening. 

In a second, different portion of the testimony one man testified, "I smelled alcohol on person z's breath."  Well three people got up and testified that was impossible.  They were out to dinner with the man ten minutes before, and no one had a drink.  He then drove to that house of the person testifying, arriving maybe ten minutes after he left.  He swears up and down he didn't stop on the way and the timetable backs him up; he had no time to stop off for a quick one.  Yet the man testifying was adamant..."his breath smelled like a brewery."  The man in question never drinks beer.  he drinks only whiskey...he's known for it.  Yet the lugnut on the stand persisted.

People see, hear, and report vastly different things even though they saw exactly the same event.

So...how do we know which old news articles are reliable?   How do we know the author wasn't some idiot who had no clue what he was doing and made some ghastly error that we - decades or even a century later - can't divine with certainty?  Remember the "did Tillie design Bethpage" controversy?  Or the Billy Bell and son issue at Torrey causing confusion because the firm was credited, even though the father died?  Or any of the others where we have just some news account to go by?

I try to stick to primary sources.  My sources for the Pebble Open this year were an  old Tom Watson interview from 1982 that he wrote, and a piece by Herbert Warren Wind that is, sadly, out of print.  But even trusting Wind as I do, I was still scared even he might have made some terrible gaffe that we didn't discover till later and that I would repeat it unwittingly.

What guidelines are good to use when analyzing the reliability of an ancient source?

While we are at it, isn't it possible that several people wrote under the Far and Sure nom de plume or other pen names of the day?  Perhaps that might explain why the style and content differ?
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do we solve the problem of trusting old news accounts?
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2010, 07:22:06 PM »
This may be a sticky topic, but I think if everyone just stays focused and calm, we can have a really productive talk.

Preface:  I am NOT referring to any particular person, course, incident, or anything else...I just want to see what answers we as an intelligent body politic protecting and preserving great architectural tenets and histories might formulate.

How do we know - decades later - what old newspaper accounts to trust and which ones to discard?  Newspapers are usually secondary sources, not primary sources.  Someone else is reporting what they heard or saw, usually what they were told by people they interviewed and research they conducted.  But newspapers screw things up all the time.

Example:  today two separate newspapers made a pretty big mistake.  They said Spain went through the entire World Cup tournament winning every game after Switzerland 1-0.  But that's just flat out wrong.  They won the knockout stages 1-0, but they beat Honduras 2-0 and Chile 2-1.  I had to correct two guys around the water cooler today.  They said, "well the paper said it.  how would they get it wrong?"  So I pulled up the scores and they said, "well how about that."

Another example:  in one of my recent cases, we had three people testify about what person x said.  All three were standing right there listening to his story, and their responses were no more than 10 minutes after person X spoke.

Two listeners told one story, but the third person said something completely different, something so far out of line from what person x said it was hard to believe he had been right there listening. 

In a second, different portion of the testimony one man testified, "I smelled alcohol on person z's breath."  Well three people got up and testified that was impossible.  They were out to dinner with the man ten minutes before, and no one had a drink.  He then drove to that house of the person testifying, arriving maybe ten minutes after he left.  He swears up and down he didn't stop on the way and the timetable backs him up; he had no time to stop off for a quick one.  Yet the man testifying was adamant..."his breath smelled like a brewery."  The man in question never drinks beer.  he drinks only whiskey...he's known for it.  Yet the lugnut on the stand persisted.

People see, hear, and report vastly different things even though they saw exactly the same event.

So...how do we know which old news articles are reliable?   How do we know the author wasn't some idiot who had no clue what he was doing and made some ghastly error that we - decades or even a century later - can't divine with certainty?  Remember the "did Tillie design Bethpage" controversy?  Or the Billy Bell and son issue at Torrey causing confusion because the firm was credited, even though the father died?  Or any of the others where we have just some news account to go by?

I try to stick to primary sources.  My sources for the Pebble Open this year were an  old Tom Watson interview from 1982 that he wrote, and a piece by Herbert Warren Wind that is, sadly, out of print.  But even trusting Wind as I do, I was still scared even he might have made some terrible gaffe that we didn't discover till later and that I would repeat it unwittingly.

What guidelines are good to use when analyzing the reliability of an ancient source?

While we are at it, isn't it possible that several people wrote under the Far and Sure nom de plume or other pen names of the day?  Perhaps that might explain why the style and content differ?

It is interesting when reading an article in a mainstream newspaper  how often they make huge mistakes.
Most people take it as fact, but when they're speaking about a subject I know well,it's amazing how many errors there are.
Which of course makes you wonder how many errors are there in the subjects you don't know well.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

TEPaul

Re: How do we solve the problem of trusting old news accounts?
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2010, 07:51:04 PM »
I think the most reliable indication an old newspaper account's information is to see a named source's remarks in quotation marks. Next in order to me is to be able to see unquoted information that can be corroborated rather easily by someone or something extremely close to the article's subject.

A good example of the latter to me would be the wording of the description of the planned last seven holes of Merion East as deemed by a consultant (who was actually named in a few articles) to be the best last seven holes on an inland course in the world. A review of the Merion Board Minutes shortly before those articles shows almost the exact same wording in the board minutes referring to the remarks of said same consultant. That tells me the primary reporter spoke directly to a board member who gave the reporter that information from the board minutes almost word for word. I call that very reliable information in a newspaper article.

Unfortunately the above two examples are pretty rare in newspaper articles from that time and probably any time.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2010, 07:52:55 PM by TEPaul »

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do we solve the problem of trusting old news accounts?
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2010, 08:22:08 PM »
I have had the St Paul paper report I won a case and the Minneapolis paper report I lost.

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do we solve the problem of trusting old news accounts?
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2010, 08:31:13 PM »


It is interesting when reading an article in a mainstream newspaper  how often they make huge mistakes.
Most people take it as fact, but when they're speaking about a subject I know well,it's amazing how many errors there are.
Which of course makes you wonder how many errors are there in the subjects you don't know well.
[/quote]

I agree 100%.  The better you know a subject, the more you ill notice glaring errors made in the newspapers.You will also noice how writers (or editors) make seemngless simple word changes, that in fact, have HUGE actual differences in meaning.

I think board minutes must confirm the newspaper article.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2010, 08:33:06 PM by Bill Brightly »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: How do we solve the problem of trusting old news accounts?
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2010, 08:36:29 PM »
Jay,

I don't think you can solve the problem in a global sense.

At best, on a case by case situation, you can only hope to get independent evidence that either confirms or refutes the account.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do we solve the problem of trusting old news accounts?
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2010, 08:45:11 PM »
The reputation of the writer listed on the byline is sure important.  Think of today's writers, and you'll see what I mean.

Don't answer these questions - they're just for illustration
1.  Who is today's journalist that "gets" golf course architecture best?
2.  Who gets it least?
3.  Who writes well, but has opinions with which you don't agree?
etc...

One of the problems with studying GCA is that it's so subjective.  And we have 1500 folks here that enjoy telling everybody else that they're not quite as enlightened....   News articles CAN be the same.

PS - Can you imagine folks reading these posts 40 years from now?  God bless 'em :)

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do we solve the problem of trusting old news accounts?
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2010, 08:46:08 PM »
Any history Ph.D.s, college history profs, etc., on this site?  This is a great place for you guys and gals to chime in.

TEPaul

Re: How do we solve the problem of trusting old news accounts?
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2010, 09:04:52 PM »
One very interesting source for checking the accuracy of news accounts, albeit generally a very irregular and very hit-and-miss source is the "Letters to the Editor" section which was probably a bit more comprehensive in the old days when newspapers had far less communication competition than they do today. From my research on golf architecture the "Letters to the Editor" section in golf magazines such as American Golfer and Golf Illustrated has revealed some pretty interesting stuff. If someone actually took the time to read through all the "Letters to the Editor" section of the entire run of both those magazines it would probably reveal some very interesting information that challenged or contradicted information that even became something of accepted fact. And then of course there was always the "Corrections" section! ;)

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do we solve the problem of trusting old news accounts?
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2010, 09:19:48 PM »
1.  Multiple sources that corroborate each others' testimony, for lack of a better word;

2.  Overall reliability of the writer, as in Jaime Diaz versus RonMon.  One is a career journalist, writing for a prestigious monthly, while the other is, well, we know what he is.

3.  Editorial policy of the source.  Refereed journal versus newspaper versus blog.  Was there a fact-checker on staff, on assignment?

4.  Remember that history is written by the victor.

5.  Remember that history has often been written (or ignored) with a wink and a nod.

I have no good answer.  It is what it is and those who might know, are already dead.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

David Lott

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do we solve the problem of trusting old news accounts?
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2010, 09:37:14 PM »
1.  Multiple sources that corroborate each others' testimony, for lack of a better word;

2.  Overall reliability of the writer, as in Jaime Diaz versus RonMon.  One is a career journalist, writing for a prestigious monthly, while the other is, well, we know what he is.

3.  Editorial policy of the source.  Refereed journal versus newspaper versus blog.  Was there a fact-checker on staff, on assignment?

4.  Remember that history is written by the victor.

5.  Remember that history has often been written (or ignored) with a wink and a nod.

I have no good answer.  It is what it is and those who might know, are already dead.

Pretty good guidelines, especially multiple sourcing, as long as you can establish that they weren't using each other as sources. (Plagiarism is a convenient vice.) Remember also that first accounts of other than obvious facts are chronically wrong, and that in golf puffery about courses and players predates the feathery.

David Lott

Mike Cirba

Re: How do we solve the problem of trusting old news accounts?
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2010, 09:43:27 PM »
There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with old news accounts and there is tremendous information that can be gleaned from them.

The problem only occurs when they are the only source of research information used, for although I've found them to be about 90% factually correct, they also contain enough Grey and unclear written areas and outright misinformation as to be tricky to use as a sole, or primary source.

Sometimes, however, that's all you have to go on in retrospective analysis, as too many older clubs do not have complete primary-source historical records..

« Last Edit: July 12, 2010, 09:49:38 PM by MCirba »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: How do we solve the problem of trusting old news accounts?
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2010, 09:58:38 PM »
I have to agree with jeffwarne on this subject.

There's an enormous amount of misinformation out there, present-day and past.  Do you believe everything you read in the newspapers? 

Or, for that matter, do you believe everything you read on this site?  Of course you don't, because it isn't fact-checked, and neither are the sports pages of most newspapers.

Claiming to "prove" anything just because it's been printed in the newspapers is folly.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do we solve the problem of trusting old news accounts?
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2010, 10:49:45 PM »
I have had the St Paul paper report I won a case and the Minneapolis paper report I lost.

I thought you won all your cases!

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do we solve the problem of trusting old news accounts?
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2010, 10:54:59 PM »

1.  Multiple sources that corroborate each others' testimony, for lack of a better word;



In this day of Twitter and Blogs, this is still a dangerous one ... even more so as the mainstream and traditional reporters spew forth with their tweets.

Any newspaper story must be taken with a grain of salt.  The reporter may have written 10 inches on the story but the editor has to edit the story to 8 inches to make it fit into the available space.  The reporter typically has no input as to what gets cut, which may be important factual information.

My rule of thumb, reporters report (and one should assume, report the facts) ... columnists give opinions ...
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Peter Pallotta

Re: How do we solve the problem of trusting old news accounts?
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2010, 11:07:56 PM »
Deconstruct the narrative.

Most journalists are lazy, but they think the job is beneath them and that their readers are dumb.

Peter

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do we solve the problem of trusting old news accounts?
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2010, 11:28:38 PM »
 8) solve the problem??? 

why do we compound the problem when using such research sources?
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do we solve the problem of trusting old news accounts?
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2010, 11:59:13 PM »
Consider the source, and when I say source I don't necessarily mean the reporter or columnist.  Sometimes this person is writing based on his own personal knowledge, but often he is not.    When he is not, then one ought to try and figure out where the information came from.   Oftentimes there is some source in the club or familiar with the club or a letter from the club to the members that ended up in a reporter's hands.

It is often a mistake to confirm one newspaper account with other newspaper accounts, because they are often blatant rip-offs of whoever was first.

Around here one must consider the agenda of the poster and their past veracity, as well as their ability to interpret and analyze these things.   More often than not, reports are misrepresented and misunderstood according to the agenda and preference of the person trying to use the report to make a point.   

Ironically, when it comes old reports and facts, even in this thread there have been mistakes and/or misrepresentations and peculiar omissions. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Sean_Tully

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do we solve the problem of trusting old news accounts?
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2010, 12:42:26 AM »
I have no idea what you guys are talking about??

Dandelions are unusually numerous
and pestiferous at the Wheaton Golf
Club this year. One Sunday last
month Mr. Bill Waterbury avers that
he sliced his ball into the branches
and had to have his caddie climb to
retrieve it.

I found this in the an old golf magazine and had a good chuckle especially after I looked up the word avers!

avers- to affirm positively; declare or even better- to assert formally as a fact

Tully

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do we solve the problem of trusting old news accounts?
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2010, 09:10:21 AM »
What do the dandelions have to do with the branches?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do we solve the problem of trusting old news accounts?
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2010, 09:35:36 AM »
8) solve the problem??? 

why do we compound the problem when using such research sources?

There will always be conflicting results after digging through old newspaper articles, club histories, board minutes, and articles that were published in the magazines of the time.
There is little problem with the information, the problems arise in the interpretation of it. There comes a point when a general consensus of what the information reveals becomes the best possible explanation of what happened, and that should be considered the 'history' of whatever was the object of the research.
That doesn't mean I have to accept it, it only means that I have to accept that the majority of researchers do.
 

« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 09:40:11 AM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do we solve the problem of trusting old news accounts?
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2010, 09:57:55 AM »
I have had the St Paul paper report I won a case and the Minneapolis paper report I lost.

I thought you won all your cases!

At least on this one I did.

TEPaul

Re: How do we solve the problem of trusting old news accounts?
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2010, 06:35:43 PM »

Yesterday, DMoriarty said on this thread:

"Around here one must consider the agenda of the poster and their past veracity, as well as their ability to interpret and analyze these things.   More often than not, reports are misrepresented and misunderstood according to the agenda and preference of the person trying to use the report to make a point.   
Ironically, when it comes old reports and facts, even in this thread there have been mistakes and/or misrepresentations and peculiar omissions." 


I don't think anything could describe better DMoriarty's modus operandi on this website so it's appropriate he made that statement above. It should probably be the tag-line underneath every post he puts on here.


Jim Kennedy:

Your last post makes a lot of sense to me. I think that's an excellent summation and I'm aware of a number of long-running subjects on here about particular clubs and courses that have turned out exactly how you described when all was said and done.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do we solve the problem of trusting old news accounts?
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2010, 08:59:31 PM »
 8) real and imaginary make complex (numbers), so the fact that while historians compile and simplify in seeking the truth some may cook the books and show their agenda

is trust a necesary evil in this regard?  seems so
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Mike Cirba

Re: How do we solve the problem of trusting old news accounts?
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2010, 10:49:19 PM »
Tom Paul,

That is perhaps the most hysterical and unintentionally funny post I've seen on GCA.

No-one so blind as those who will not see, and calling the kettle black seems second nature to those who only see darkness.