Stategy to the Nth degree, the 5th at Newport

[Patrick_Mucci]

Is this one of the greatest par 4's in golf ?

http://home.att.net/~scottgolf/wsb/media/123693/site1015.jpg

It's the hole on the left margin, although the par 3 at the bottom is terrific, and Ron Forse has done some nice restoration work around the green of the hole that runs back toward the bottom of aerial.

Look at the decisions off the tee, and the resultant decisions with the second shot.

Understand that the area to the immediate right of the green and the green slope heavily right to left, and back to front.

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

What is the length of the hole?  The bunkering scheme certainly looks intriguing.  Can you also speak to their depth and severity?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

The bunkers are deep and severe.

The tee is on the lowest part of the hole, hence it's an uphill shot, blind to the green, with just the massive bunker and right side fairway visible.  It's a rather intimidating view, especially with a head or crossing wind.

The wind has a tremendous impact on the play of the hole.

The ideal tee shot is up the left side, but short of the second series of bunkers, which into the wind are in our imagination, and so may be the carry of the first diagonal bunker up the left side.

The further right the tee shot, the shorter the carry, and the more difficult the next shot.

While the aerial is nice, one has to experience the hole to fully appreciate it.  

This is the type of hole you could play forever, and never tire of it.

The green surrounds offer challenge to the errant shot as well.

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

Thanks for the description.  It sounds FASCINATING!

How long is it?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

I believe, from the back tee, near the road the hole plays at
451 yards.

But, from the other tees, obviously it's shorter.

When I next visit I will try to take some meaningful measurements with respect to carry, etc., etc..

[Scott_Burroughs]

Here's the picture direct:

[ChrisB (Guest)]

Patrick,
Trying to remember the hole (played the USAm there in '95; the course was firm and fast with a good breeze such that I believe #5 was downwind right to left, but it still played tough)--does the 5th have a spine in the green separating it into left and right "halves" (like #5 at Yeamans Hall)?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chris,

I can't compare it to Yeaman's because I've never seen Yeaman's, but I do believe it has a spine like feature, adding more strategy to the play of the hole.

Newport is wonderful, especially at par 70.  
I just wish they could get a few more yards out of # 18.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Patrick,
This is a great looking hole from the aerial.

Mike,
I did some scaling from Pat's remembrance of 451 from the tips. The first bunker(diagonal)on the left starts at 165 and ends at 235. The second bunker  starts at 305 and ends at 340. The last bunker before the greenside ones starts at 390.
All these measurements are approximate and are measured from the tee.
The darker green area is about 60 yds wide. The green appears about 20 wide by 30 deep.

[Mike_Sweeney]

I caddied at Newport in 1984 after graduating from Boston College, a great era with America's Cup era still around in Newport. I remember the hole well and caddied at Newport in an early Senior's tournament. The 5th turns away from Ocean Drive so typically you have the wind at your back. The big question is 17 years later do the pair of fairway bunkers on the left come into play now? My guess is yes, so now a 3 wood off the tee? With the tendency to push the ball to the right because of the OB and the bunker on the left, the bunker 30-40 yards in front of the green comes into play from a visual perspective...the green appears right behind the bunker. Great hole, great course, great town, I need to get back there!!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim Kennedy,

Thanks for the info, it's most helpful.

What can't be seen is the slopes that affect incoming shots to the green, and the difficulty in getting it close from the non-prefered side of the fairway.

Mike Sweeney,

It is my understanding that there is a morning wind and an afternoon wind from a different direction, such that the hole can play dramatically different on the same day.  
What's your recollection ?

[Ran Morrissett]

Pat,

All three holes in the picture look FANTASTIC - is Tillie the one who deserves the lionshare of credit for them?

Can you imagine in the old days having to hit a draw off the tee and then a running fade with a three wood/long iron past that short bunker and onto that green? How cool is that?  

What was the timetable of Forse's work there -  before or after Woods' Amateur?

How has the Club had the wisdom to resist fairway irrigation? This design seems to share some of the old world charm of Maidstone - are there any similarities between how the two play?

Scott, have you done Newport CC as the Aerial of the Day yet? If not, could you please?

Cheers,

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ran,

I understand that Forse's work is post Amateur, and that the club did a smart thing regarding his work.  Rather than present the membership with a Master Plan that could draw resistance to change, even though change might have been restoration, they decided to adopt Ron's recommendations at the Green committee level, implementing the plan over a few years.

I understand that resistance to a fairway irrigation system is fairly universal, and that supporters of such don't remain on the committees or board very long.

I had heard that Tillie was inspired following dinner one night at Baron von Rachel's, but my sources are in Florida for the winter and I can't confirm same until they return.  Incidentally, Newport won't open up for about a month, when the Season arrives.

Ran, as neat as this hole is, the previous hole is almost as spectacular, playing into a brisk head or crossing wind.

The 6th hole is neat as well, with some unique features, and playing into a brisk wind.

I think this is one of the most underrated courses in the country.  It is also a course you can play 36 holes a day on, for the entire summer, and never get bored.

We will play Newport, Point Judith where Ron Prichard did a wonderful restoration, Wannamoisett, and Metacomet this summer, I hope.

Descendents of Baron Von Rachel still reside in the Newport and Providence area, perhaps we can interview them for GCA.

Regarding Maidstone, they are similar, but there have been times when I've been disappointed in Maidstone's shaggy condition, although I understand that look and maintainance practices are things of the past.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scott,

What's the date of your aerial ?

[Mark_Fine]

Played Newport again last fall.  #5 is 422 yards from the tips.  Wind speed and its direction is the key on this hole otherwise it's more interesting on paper than it is on the ground.  Driver/9I for me the day I played so probably 2I/9I for the pros.  I love to play Newport but some of the land is relatively flat and not of the same character of a Maidstone for example.  Many of the greens seem to have shrunk as a number of the greenside bunkers are not really greenside.  I have to ask Forse about this to find out if they were always this way.  You would not guess this is a Tillinghast design and I really wonder how much of it is?  
Mark

[Scott_Burroughs]

I'll post the aerial in the coming weeks.  I sent this one to Patrick so he could post it for this thread, and posting the entire aerial might steal his thunder.  The rest of the course looks as interesting as these holes do.  I'm a sucker for great bunkering.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark Fine,

If you hit driver/9 iron into the long 5th, what did you hit into the short 6th coming back in the opposite direction ?

Also, how did you play # 4, what club did you hit ?

[Mark_Fine]

Pat,
On #4 I hit 2I from 211 and on #6 I hit wedge from 120 yards.  On both the par fours I hit very good drives for me anyway.  You can't go by me though on club selection.  The fairways were firm the day we played (not much rain) and it was fun as you had to hit a lot of run up golf shots.

By the way, I actually joined Ron Forse for dinner last night and we had a great chat about Newport and other courses.  I was right about one thing and wrong about another.  I was right that the greens have shrunk and part of the plan is to restore many of them to their original size.  I was wrong in that much of the course is indeed Tillinghast.  I guess it goes to show how varied his styles can be.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark Fine,

A driver and wedge into a two club length wind on # 6,
I'm impressed, hard fairways and all.

I would have loved to have joined you and Gil for dinner,
I'll bet it was fun and stimulating.  Keep me in mind next time.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Patrick,
   I don't know the date of the aerial as it's MapQuest's/GlobXplorer's aerial.  A lot of the color aerials have been taken within the last two years.

[Mark_Fine]

Pat,
I don't have my scorecard back in front of me but isn't #6 only 350 yards or so?  I'm not even sure I hit driver, it may have been a position 3W or something.  You've seen me play, I cut it, draw it, knock it down, all kinds of fun but sometimes "questionable" things    Did I say there was a 2 club wind?  I don't recall it being that much of a factor on the front.  

By the way, the dinner was with Ron Forse not Gil!
Mark

[RC_Stanfield (Guest)]

Are you guys paying for the aerials everytime...or is there a way to get them free?

[Scott_Burroughs]

You guys?  I do the work of many men!    

That's not entirely true.  Others have been doing their own aerial grabbing sparked by the AOTDs and probably even before that.  I get all of the aerials for free on MapQuest.com.  MapQuest's aerials are all done by the company GlobeXplorer.  The aerials can be copied for free and used for personal and non-profit uses only.  I get no money from the displaying of them here and GCA.com is a not a commercial site.  You can read the copyright statement on Mapquest.com's site.

I also get aerials from Terraserver and everything on Terraserver is free for grabbing.  I believe Terraserver's mapping was all done by the government (USGS=U.S. Geological Service {Survey?}).

[RC_Stanfield (Guest)]

Thanks, cause I noticed the mapxplorer site and they wanted some cash for their prints...wew high dollar....for just pasting on GCA.

Good to know you are not out of pocket everytime.  Thanks, for the sites.

Cheers

[Scott_Burroughs]

Here's the web site for Terraserver:
http://terraserver.homeadvisor.msn.com/default.asp

Once you find what you want, I recommend the "Large" view.