Hole Handicaps Change for Stroke vs. Match Play; Anyone Seen This?

[A.G._Crockett]

At Achasta (formerly Birch River), a Nicklaus course in Dahlonega, GA, the scorecard shows the holes handicapped differently for stroke play as opposed to match play.  In some cases, the differences are very large.

The first hole, for instance, is a very straightfoward par 4; it is handicapped as 6 for stroke play, 13 for match play.  #3 is a very tough par 3, handicapped 4 for stroke play, 15 for match play.  The biggest difference is #4, a somewhat "unusual" par 5, that is handicapped 11 for stroke play, but 1 for match play. 

Interestingly, the only hole on the golf course that has the same handicap for both is #15, a par 5 that may be the single worst hole that I have ever played.  It is handicapped 2 for both forms of competition.

I do not remember ever seeing this before, and can't see much rhyme or reason to it in this case.  Has anyone else seen this, where,  and can you explain the logic behind having different handicaps for different forms of competition?  Moreover, how would one go about deciding that a particular hole is more requiring of a stroke to the lesser player in one form than the other?

[Jay Kirkpatrick]

We have it at my club, and it drives me crazy.  The stroke play handicap speaks for itself.  The hardest hole is 1 and so on.  The match play handicap takes into account the avg discrepency between good players and bad players on a given hole.  The number 1 handicap hole in match play would identify the hole where there is the biggest avg score discrepency between a 1 and an 18.

[TEPaul]

A.G.

Yes, I have seen it before. Philadelphia Country Club did this in the last some years.

First of all, handicap stroke allocation is essentially up to a club's discretion even though the USGA with their Handicap System and Handicap Manual offers what they believe is the proper data collection process to determine how strokes should be allocated on any particular course.

As to the logic behind why stroke allocations may differ with holes in match play vs stroke play, it basically has to do with the fundamental difference between how the two formats are contested and scored---eg match play via "holes" and stroke play only via "strokes."

The essential point of handicap strokes and stroke hole allocation in match play is as an "equalizer" on any hole in match play. In stroke play that is not necessary as its essential point is only a gross score for an entire round (which match play often isn't).

There is also the matter of "Equitable Stroke Control" (ESC) which is frankly only or at least mostly relevent for match play purposes with golfers who don't finish holes or go very high on a hole. With stroke play since technically one is supposed to putt out everywhere this (ESC) is technically not that relevent---eg in stroke play one must record his score on any hole no matter how high it is.

[A.G._Crockett]

The essential point of handicap strokes and stroke hole allocation in match play is as an "equalizer" on any hole in match play. In stroke play that is not necessary as its essential point is only a gross score for an entire round (which match play often isn't).

There is also the matter of "Equitable Stroke Control" (ESC) which is frankly only or at least mostly relevent for match play purposes with golfers who don't finish holes or go very high on a hole. With stroke play since technically one is supposed to putt out everywhere this (ESC) is technically not that relevent---eg in stroke play one must record his score on any hole no matter how high it is.

Tom,
Both of these make sense to me, but I'm not sure that I understand why a given course would have different handicaps.  #1 at Achasta is handicapped 13 for match play, which seems about right to me.  It is a flat, straight hole with a wide fairway and a slightly elevated but relatively flat green.  Bunkering is minimal, and it is of average length.  O.K., fine.  But the hole is handicapped 6 for stroke play! 

I accept that individual hole handicaps matter less for stroke play per se, though for games like net skins it still matters.  But I don't see the connection between that and the different rankings.   In fact, the less it matters for stroke play, the less you would need a separate set of handicap ratings, no?

What am I missing here?

[Pete_Pittock]

Our club just had our first tournament using a stroke play based handicap table, and the only quibble was from a +2 handicapper, who didn't like where he ceded strokes. There seemed to be a tightening of the results as net birdies were a bit more predictable. It can be used for these tournaments  (multi) individual net, better ball, stableford, par and bogey. You play strictly against the course and your capability that day.

Figuring it out is pretty simple and is explained in the USGA handicap manual, also on the PopeofSlope's website. If there is a data error in the collection of scores it could be the average score on a particular hole was skewed by a out of norm hole location diffiiculty. Over time the 'errors' can be corrected.

The first place I saw it was at RStG who had a sign on the starter shack. Easy. What are you playing, use the applicable table, compare hdcps, and pip the scorecard.  More common in GB&I and Australia than it is in the US.

[Bill_McBride]

I don't understand why individual stroke holes are needed for medal play.  Isn't your net score your gross less total handicap?  How could it matter where handicap strokes fall except for a playoff?

[Pete_Pittock]

Bill,
we cross posted. call me per IM

[TEPaul]

A.G.

Your questions are good ones and I sort of felt like I wasn't explaining it very clearly or comprehensively in that post, and frankly I'm not all that mathemetically inclined or interested in mathematics or its applied theories anyway.

First of all, one even starts to wonder why, if let's say the hole on some course where it's most necessary to allocate a handicap stroke to equalize between players of different handicaps (let's say for discussion an 18 against a scratch), the proverbial #1 handicap hole, is hole #6 on a course. And let's say the next most necessary hole on the course for the same purpose is #8. The USGA Handicap System and manual does not recommend that #8 get the 2nd handicap stroke allocation, they recommend it be a hole on the back nine, and the 3rd handicap hole be on the front nine and the next on the back nine and back and forth that way for all 18 stroke holes.

They recommend that pretty much due to the essential nature of the match play format---eg scored via "holes" not strokes, and I guess because in tournaments players can start off both #1 and #10.

And then there is this whole ESC thing which is really only relevent to match play because in match play golfers don't have to actually finish holes which they certainly do in stroke play. Because of that golfers can estimate what they might have made on a hole via ESC which is not possible in stroke play because you have to putt out and finish all 18 holes in stroke play or you are not considered to have played a round of golf

And then you get into this whole thing of handicap posting and how it's done---via ONE single round GROSS score. That is not the match play format or scoring mechanism, it's only the Stroke Play format and scoring mechanism, so why do they have it for handicap posting purposes when probably 90% of the golf played in the world is with match play?

In my opinion, because it's easier to post that way; it's simpler.

The reason I know that is about twenty years ago me and a few guys from Philadelphia CC, the club I mentioned to you has both now, made a formal recommendation to the USGA (it took us about two years  ) that they consider requiring hole by hole posting for handicap purposes simply to solve all the problems of sand-bagging in one fell swoop!

I remember the Director of the USGA's GHIN System back, Dean Knuth, (I think he actually invented the GHIN System and he has henceforth been known as "The Pope of Slope") said to us; "Guys, it has taken me 20 years to get handicap posting compliance up to about 40% asking golfers to post a single score (a GROSS single round score which is the stroke play format and scoring mechanism) and now you are asking me to tell them to post EIGHTEEN scores (hole by hole)?"

Well that stopped us cold but we told him: "Dean, do you realize if you do require golfers to post hole by hole for handicapping purpose in a single act you will virtually solve every handicap problem known to man in one fell swoop?" He said; "Of course I do, and maybe it can happen when scanning gets better or computers and their programs do. That was about twenty years ago!

We even told him that he wouldn't need to try and teach golfers what ESC is or how to calculate it before posting a single round GROSS score (by the way, they kept changing the ESC procedure and formula so much even I couldn't remember what it was in any given year) because it could just be imbedded into the computer system so if a golfer posted a 10 on a par 3 the ESC formula in the system would automatically reduce it to the ESC requirement for the handicap of that particular golfer.

Basically they are still trying to fit a square peg into a round hole with the handicap posting procedure by using a single gross score for handicap posting purposes (the stroke play format) with the match play format and scoring procedure which is by holes (hole by hole) and not by a single 18 hole round GROSS score.

Essentially, and mathematically and realistically with most all golfers if they had two handicaps, a match play handicap and a stroke play handicap, inherently their stroke play handicap is always going to be greater than their match play handicap due to the inherent differences between the two formats and their vastly different scoring mechanism!

[TEPaul]

"I don't understand why individual stroke holes are needed for medal play.  Isn't your net score your gross less total handicap?"


Bill:

Yes! Matter of fact, there is no such thing as "net" score in match play. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the match play format or scoring mechanism (by holes). It only has to do with the stroke (or medal) play format and scoring mechanism (a single round GROSS score)!

[Andrew Summerell]

At Achasta (formerly Birch River), a Nicklaus course in Dahlonega, GA, the scorecard shows the holes handicapped differently for stroke play as opposed to match play.  In some cases, the differences are very large.

The match play index has no correlation to par or difficulty. It is basically a way of spreading out the shots evenly through the entire 18 holes. I believe it was formulated by Noel Bartell, a prominent member of New South Wales GC since the 1950’s and still going strong now in his 80’s.

Match play index generally goes:
Hole/Index
1    -  18
2    -  8
3    -  12
4    -  3
5    -  14
6    -  6
7    -  10
8    -  1
9    -  16
10   -  5
11   -  11
12   -  2
13   -  15
14   -  7
15   -  13
16   -  4
17   -  17
18   -  9

To check this, I looked at cards from New South Wales GC, The Australian, Newcastle, Portsea, St Andrews Beach, The National (Old), Kingston Heath, and they all had the same index.

I copied my post from a previous thread that may help.
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,23662.msg434719/#msg434719

[John Moore II]

I think this is a stupid idea. Why do you even need hole handicaps for stroke play? Its really quite simple, just subtract the handicap number from the gross score. What does it matter if you made 4-net 3 on one hole or whatever? It doesn't. Only in match play do the hole handicaps make a difference. And if anyone makes the sad excuse that net scores in stroke play affect order of play, I am going to choke. Order of play only comes into effect out of courtesy, not rule or requirement in stroke play, and even match play, although if you play out of order in match play your opponent can recall your shot.

[Pete_Pittock]

There is stroke play and there is stroke play. If you are playing golf and you simply deduct your handicap from your gross score there is no need for a handicap table. But there are competitions where it does matter what a golfer scores on particular holes. In these cases it makes sense to use a table which is course based rather than opponent based.

(Net) Par and Bogey.
You get one point for each (net) par or (net) bogey on your scorecard,

(Net)  (Modified) Stableford  
Your stableford points accrue on a net basis each hole, total is added up.

(Net) Better ball, multiball.
Tour team's total is determined by the best net score(s) on each hole, and toted up  at the end.

[TEPaul]

Do you see how the stroke allocation in that sequence in post #9 alternates back and forth sequentially between the front and back nines? I think the USGA's Handicap System and Manual also recommends that the lowest handicap allocation not be assigned to like the 1st and 10th holes or the last holes on either nine, for fairly logical reasons.

[Andrew Summerell]

I think this is a stupid idea. Why do you even need hole handicaps for stroke play? Its really quite simple, just subtract the handicap number from the gross score. What does it matter if you made 4-net 3 on one hole or whatever? It doesn't. Only in match play do the hole handicaps make a difference. And if anyone makes the sad excuse that net scores in stroke play affect order of play, I am going to choke. Order of play only comes into effect out of courtesy, not rule or requirement in stroke play, and even match play, although if you play out of order in match play your opponent can recall your shot.

I'm not sure why you think hole handicaps for stroke play is stupid. The Stroke handicap basically covers any form on individual full handicap event that is not matchplay. It covers more than just 'stroke' events.

[TEPaul]

"And if anyone makes the sad excuse that net scores in stroke play affect order of play, I am going to choke."

Your right and in stroke play I don't think it does---and under the Rules of the Handicap System. Obviously in match play it does.

[Pete_Pittock]

Read Section 17 of the USGA Handicap Manual. Look towards the end at 17-5 also compare of the medal and match tables based on the same input of scores.

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-17/

[John Moore II]

I think this is a stupid idea. Why do you even need hole handicaps for stroke play? Its really quite simple, just subtract the handicap number from the gross score. What does it matter if you made 4-net 3 on one hole or whatever? It doesn't. Only in match play do the hole handicaps make a difference. And if anyone makes the sad excuse that net scores in stroke play affect order of play, I am going to choke. Order of play only comes into effect out of courtesy, not rule or requirement in stroke play, and even match play, although if you play out of order in match play your opponent can recall your shot.

I'm not sure why you think hole handicaps for stroke play is stupid. The Stroke handicap basically covers any form on individual full handicap event that is not matchplay. It covers more than just 'stroke' events.

In a pure stroke play event, hole handicap doesn't matter. In a Stableford scored event or something, it does, but thats not stroke play, thats points play.

[TEPaul]

A.G.

I think I realize that even if perhaps a lot of interesting information has been offered on this thread you never really got much of an answer to your original question. Let me keep thinking about it. I used to know most all this stuff because of our two year proposal to the USGA for hole by hole handicap posting but that was a long time ago.

[Andrew Summerell]

I think this is a stupid idea. Why do you even need hole handicaps for stroke play? Its really quite simple, just subtract the handicap number from the gross score. What does it matter if you made 4-net 3 on one hole or whatever? It doesn't. Only in match play do the hole handicaps make a difference. And if anyone makes the sad excuse that net scores in stroke play affect order of play, I am going to choke. Order of play only comes into effect out of courtesy, not rule or requirement in stroke play, and even match play, although if you play out of order in match play your opponent can recall your shot.

I'm not sure why you think hole handicaps for stroke play is stupid. The Stroke handicap basically covers any form on individual full handicap event that is not matchplay. It covers more than just 'stroke' events.

In a pure stroke play event, hole handicap doesn't matter. In a Stableford scored event or something, it does, but thats not stroke play, thats points play.

You miss read my post. Over the years, a lot of courses would list a 'Stroke' handicap table that covers many forms of play, not just stroke play. Stableford & par events are still based on the strokes a golfer plays over an entire round. The points (or + & - as in a par event) are mere replacements for writing a stroke number on each hole on the card.

[Ken Moum]

I think this is a stupid idea. Why do you even need hole handicaps for stroke play? Its really quite simple, just subtract the handicap number from the gross score. What does it matter if you made 4-net 3 on one hole or whatever? It doesn't. Only in match play do the hole handicaps make a difference. And if anyone makes the sad excuse that net scores in stroke play affect order of play, I am going to choke. Order of play only comes into effect out of courtesy, not rule or requirement in stroke play, and even match play, although if you play out of order in match play your opponent can recall your shot.

The stroke play allocations are there solely for the purpose of fourball competition.  And they are allocated by how hard the holes are relative to par.

The match play allocations are SUPPOSED to ignore how hard the holes are relative to par, and be based on the relative difference in scoring between mid single-digit handicappers and mid double-digit handicappers.

IOW, the goal is to give strokes where the weaker player is most likely to need a stroke in order to halve the hole.

There are also a lot of suggestions about not giving initial strokes too late the round (you might not ever see that stroke) or on the first hole (due to playoffs)

If anyone is interested the USGA's online handicapping manual explains it all in detail, and make perfect snese.

[Pete_Pittock]

What about net four ball stroke play, in which partners take their best net score on each hole and addl up these net scores at the end for their total net score. They do not subtract their proportioned team handicap, but the rules of golf require their scorecard show which player's gross score was used at each hole. It is the committee's responsibility to determine the net score.

Yes, stableford adds up points, but in a handicap stableford you get points for net birdies, pars, bogies, etc., and where handicap strokes fall on the card effects your stableford point total. If the table used corresponds to actual hole difficulty you should see more net pars.
 

[A.G._Crockett]

Read Section 17 of the USGA Handicap Manual. Look towards the end at 17-5 also compare of the medal and match tables based on the same input of scores.

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-17/

Thanks for all the responses, guys.  I think I see the reasoning in this.

I think this link explains the REASON for the different handicap tables; the match play handicaps are to equalize strokes between two players (NOT the same thing as the difficulty of the hole, which I already understood) while the stroke play tables are relative to difficulty of making par.

I guess what strikes me as odd about the scorecard at Achasta are the seemingly massive differences between some of the handicap rankings.  Taking just the first hole, the 13 rating for match play seems right; there is NO way that it is the 6th most difficult hole, relative to par, on that golf course.  Similarly, the no. 1 match play hole on the golf course is only no. 11 in stroke play.

For those of who see this at your club or in your experience, how big are the differences in the two tables?

[Jim Nugent]

Another handicap question.  Don't they alternate each successive handicap hole, back and forth between the nines?  i.e. say the number one handicap hole is on the front.  Then so are all the other odd-number handicap holes.  All the even-numbered handicap holes would be on the back in this example.  Yes?  If so, why? 

[Ken Moum]

Another handicap question.  Don't they alternate each successive handicap hole, back and forth between the nines?  i.e. say the number one handicap hole is on the front.  Then so are all the other odd-number handicap holes.  All the even-numbered handicap holes would be on the back in this example.  Yes?  If so, why? 

From ther Handicap manual:

(i) Odd Strokes/Even Strokes

The USGA recommends that the odd-numbered strokes be assigned to the holes on the first nine and the even-numbered strokes to the holes on the second nine.
This format equalizes, as nearly as possible, the distribution of handicap strokes over the entire 18 holes, and makes matches more equitable. In a case where the second nine is decidedly more difficult than the first nine, consideration should be given to allocating odd-numbered strokes to the second nine.

[Mike_Trenham]

Following the USGA mathematical hole allocations is foolish, they even say so more politely in their handicap guide.  Read the USGA handicap carefully!http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-17/

Here are some important excerpts

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
“17-1. Discretion of Committee”

“Good judgment is of prime importance because no formula can cover conditions on every golf course. The Handicap Committee should review the course hole by hole”

“Common sense will dictate how closely the recommendations may be followed”

“The first handicap stroke should be allocated so that this stroke is most useful in matches between players of almost equal ability, such as matches involving players with a Course Handicap of 0 and 1, 10 and 11, or 29 and 30. In such matches, the first handicap stroke will be of the greatest importance as an equalizer to the player receiving the stroke.”

“In allocating the second handicap stroke, matches between players having a slightly greater difference in Course Handicap should be given the most consideration, such as matches involving players with a Course Handicap of 0 and 2, 10 and 12, or 29 and 31. This process should be continued until the first six strokes have been assigned.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Essentially the act of collecting all of the scores and running them through the PC is worthless.  As in the end so many strokes are given in the match between the good golfer and the weak golfer it hardly matters where the strokes fall in those matches.   
We blindly followed the USGA calculations a number of years ago and it drove our members nuts. 

This was one of the first things I got fixed as the golf chairman and it was well received.