I really enjoyed Union Vale, (thumb print! hog's backs!) Manhattan Woods = okay

[Jay Flemma]

I had a ball on Monday at Stephen Kay's Links at Union Vale.  Had a nice time playing with Stephen himself at Manhattan Woods on Tuesday...there were some nice things there, but there was some really cool architecture at Union Vale...two other pluses:  it's public and it's cheap:)

After a tepid start - a mundane opener, a quirky par-5 2d hole, a mild version of a Redan at 3, and an ordinary 90-degree dogleg at 4, the course heats up big time.

5 = short par-4 with great green divided by a hog's back!   It's really two small greens, so even though you have a wedge in your hands, it's a tough shot, and if you miss, it's a tough up-and-down or two-putt:



Look at the beautiful thumbprint in the green at the par-3 7th!!!



cool mound in front of the green at 11 actually extends into the green and sheds approach shots!



Nothing special architecturally, but I joked to my playing partner, a recent college grad that, "if you hit the silo, you win a free bag of feed!"  Unintentionally, he nailed it!  Whap!  Hysterical...



Stephen calls this hole - which he has repeated elsewhere - a "Trinity Hole."  As a Bantam grad, I won't complain...



And a nice message to all my Irish friends...

[Matt_Ward]

Jay:

Links at Unionvale is worth a play for anyone seeking quality golf and a good price to boot.

My only issue is the forced cut-off with the wetlands at #1 -- not a big fan of #2 and the 18th is quite limited -- again with the wetlands involvement.

The quality holes are there and Kay often gets more attention with his layouts at Blue Heron Pines / West in the AC area and Harbor Pines. Links at Unionvale blows them both away in my mind. The issue for the layout is its location -- few people know where Lagrangeville is and what they can expect from the golf side of things.

[Richard Hetzel]

I played it two weeks ago, and although it didnt break into my top 20, it was a decent golf course. #1, #2 were less than ideal. I didn't mind #18. I also though that the par 5 hole that dog legged left at the silo was one of the weaker holes on the course....All in all, worth playing if nearby!

[Matt_Ward]

Richard:

You say it didn't break into your "top 20." Is that your overall courses played or just the public ones?

The strength of the course rests in the par-4 holes in my mind.

[Chris_Blakely]

Richard:

You say it didn't break into your "top 20." Is that your overall courses played or just the public ones?

The strength of the course rests in the par-4 holes in my mind.

It wouldn't break my top wo of either overall or public golf courses.  Don't get me wrong it is a very good public course and one of Kay's best.  Heck it wasn't one of his renovation's of classic  course so right away I like it!!!

Chris

[David_Tepper]

In Duchess County, NY:

http://www.thelinksatunionvale.com/golf/proto/thelinksatunionvale/index.htm

[Mike Cirba]

Is Union Vale worth my 2-plus hour drive from the Poconos?

What would folks rate it on the Doak Scale?

I'm simultaneously intrigued while fearing too much reliance on wetlands from pics and reports to date.

Who wants to give it a hard number?

[Tom Dunne]

Mike,

It's not so much reliance on wetlands as an awkward co-habitation. I think Kay actually tried to downplay the penal impact of the environmental area, but it pretty much bisects the property and there was no way avoid crossing it a couple of times. It leads to lay-ups off the tee on three holes (1, 2, and 18) and turns an already very long par-5 into a par-6 if you don't hit a good drive. It's a broad and continuous hazard, which makes those holes very frustrating for short hitters as there's no way to play around it.   

Put me down for UV as a 4. It's a modestly interesting course. A mix of good, average, and awkward holes. There are plenty of design features to look at--some of them work well, some don't. The property has some nice movement and is an enjoyable walk. I like it more in the shoulder seasons when there's a bit of wind about (the site is mostly open farmland). The green fee is affordable, the people are nice, pace of play is good, and the course delivers solid value for the money. Is it worth a 2+ hour drive? I was about to say no, but that area is so rural pretty much everyone is making a long drive to get there. It does attract a fair amount of people up from NYC--those who in the public course-selection equation of GOOD, AFFORDABLE, CLOSE TO HOME (PICK TWO) select the first two options.

[Mike Sweeney]

Is Union Vale worth my 2-plus hour drive from the Poconos?

What would folks rate it on the Doak Scale?

I'm simultaneously intrigued while fearing too much reliance on wetlands from pics and reports to date.

Who wants to give it a hard number?

I agree with most of what Tom Dunne wrote but I think he was a little tough with his number. A Doak 5 in my book and if you only rated 14 or 15 holes it jumps to the  6ish range.

I think it is a trip that Mike Cirba should make if only due to the background of the place. I assume you know the story. A bunch of Irish guys (real Irish guys  ) get frustrated with NYC muni golf and decide to build their own links style course on a limited budget in upstate NY.

I think the membership model  has changed (they all made money for a change) but it was originally patterned as a European model with members and outside play.

[Mike Cirba]

Thanks, Tom and Mike...that's the sort of info I was hoping for.

I'll try to make it up there late this fall.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

For a special trip to see it -- the answer is no. Not from the distance you are coming from. For those in the immediate NYC metro area I'd say yes.

I know the kind of golf that gets your meter running -- Unionvale has a few holes of such note -- but the overall dimension calls into question such a ride.

On the Doak scale I'd place it between 4-5 -- there are holes of note -- as I mentioned the par-4's -- especially on the inner half are well thought out in my mind.

[John Foley]

Mike C - it's worth a look - If you have not see Hotchkiss (which is probably 45 min away) I would try and see both. There is some good holes (#11 which Jay shows) is very cool driving hole.

The best in the area was Brntton Woods, but alas it's now private.

[Mike Cirba]

Thanks, Matt and John...

Sounds like I may want to pair it with a cool vintage nine-holer in the area.

[Jay Flemma]

Mike, lemme know when you come up...I'll give it a Doak 6.  Tom Dunne is right...the first few holes are mild, but after that it's fun and interesting and cheap.  A good public option for public golfers!

[Richard Hetzel]

Richard:

You say it didn't break into your "top 20." Is that your overall courses played or just the public ones?

The strength of the course rests in the par-4 holes in my mind.

I lump all my courses into one giant lot, public and private! It was a pretty good golf course, but not in my top 20. Top 50 maybe. Yes the par 4's were good, and actually the par 3's were pretty good as well. I would give it a Doak 4.5.

[Mike Cirba]

Jay/Richard,

Perhaps it's the story of its origins, or perhaps I just like most of the Stephen Kay original courses I've played, but I find myself more intrigued by Union Vale than other publics in the area.   

If I were to try and play 36 that day, is there anything nearby that is either intriguing or of significant historic value?

[Mike Sweeney]

If I were to try and play 36 that day, is there anything nearby that is either intriguing or of significant historic value?

Mike,

Sleepy Hollow would be on your way home. Historic, fun, great views, recent renovation.... My personal favorite in Westchester.

[Mike Cirba]

Mike Sweeney,

I LOVE SH, which is one of the most under-rated courses on the planet, especially after the work Gil and George did out there.

I'm thinking something perhaps more low-profile...a bit of a public hidden gem, perhaps, if there is such a thing along that corridor?

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike Sweeney,

I LOVE SH, which is one of the most under-rated courses on the planet, especially after the work Gil and George did out there.

I'm thinking something perhaps more low-profile...a bit of a public hidden gem, perhaps, if there is such a thing along that corridor?

9 holes of Painswickian fun/insanity:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40903.0/

PS. It actually sits on/next a former NY Psychiatric Center. Good place for a GCA outing! 

[Mike Cirba]

Mike,

THAT'S THE TICKET!!!

Now, I'm DEFINITELY GOING.  

What's more, I know who the designer of Harlem Valley is, and better yet, I'm NOT going to reveal it on GCA!!!  

I'm not even going to reveal the year it opened...heehhhahahaahhaahahahaahhahah

Next to a Psychiatric Hospital...can I make some referrals while I'm in town??  

[Mike Cirba]

Mike Sweeney,

The link to the Harlem Valley website seems to be under construction.

Do they really claim that the course was designed by Donald Ross?!? 

My research from a few years back indicates that it was designed by local golf pro Frank Sheridan, and opened in 1939.

Perhaps we can have a 500 page contentious debate here?   

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

The only place of real quality that is on the way back for you would be either Tuxedo (RTJ course) that gets little real attention and for a sleeper you can also try Lake Mohawk in Sparta -- really old time layout on rolling land with some fun small greens. Right up your alley.

Mike, don't get your hopes sky high that Unionvale is so really outstanding public course that is invisible. It has its moments but it does have its share of holes with issues -- the forced lay-ups with the wetland holes is just one element of concern. The combination of par-4 holes - especially on the inner half are well done. For the value it's hard to beat when compared to neighbors like Centennial, Mansion Ridge and Pound Ridge, et al of the CCFAD type.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,

Have a little fun after Unionvale, play the 9 hole Dutcher GC in Pawling, NY, about 20 minutes SE of The Links.

[Mike Cirba]

Matt,

Yes, I'm not looking for a 7...thinking I'll likely see a 5, which is ok.

Jim,

Dutcher sounds very cool.   Thanks for the suggestiion.

[Jay Flemma]

Mike, just be sure to call me when you come...and I'll be down in Philly area in a week. So let's catch up.  I'll send my number.