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Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
By that, I mean does the end course enjoy the greatest variance in quality from the property with which the architect was given?

One of eleven courses to earn the famous  ;) AAA Morrissett rating, the site upon which Oakmont was built wasn't a 10 and this was NOT a case of an architect trying not to screw up a great site. Just the opposite - the site needed most of its features added to create playing interest.

The clubhouse occupies the high ground, which in general would lead to some bad uphill and/or downhill holes. The heavy soil was far from ideal. There is a road which the golfer must cross to get to property that is on a general broad slope back toward it. On the clubhouse side, there is the big hump that is not well suited for golf (holes 1 and 9 deal with it). More general sloping land abounds without too many interesting landforms (please understand: I am saying this in general as I appreciate the plateau for the third green and the wrinkles in what became the all-world twelfth fairway) that I can discern.  The ditch hazards are GREAT feature to be seen snaking throughout but are man-made obviously. In speaking with Ron Forse, he notes that Geoffrey Cornish once called Oakmont 'homely.'

For a starting piece of property, would you give it more than a 4 out of 10? Maybe a 5?  I know one living famous architect who would turn down the job if offered it today - he wouldn't think the property would lend itself to good golf. Think about that!

You get my point. The difference from the start to the finish (i.e. the initial property to the course that is loved/feared today) is between 5 and 6 grades (personally speaking, a 4 site was transformed to a 10 course). As is the case with Friar's Head, the golfer leaves the course actually thinking it occupies a very good site for golf.

However you grade it, where else does man's hand achieve so much? Not Sand Hills or Bandon or Pine Valley as the sandy sites were so good. It has to be a weak site. Perhaps Shadow Creek or Doak's course in Texas (neither of which I have seen)? Still I don't see how a spread of 6 grades is possible at either. Maybe Kapalua Plantation? Where else? Yale with its rocky soil? Merion (though its quarry and brook are examples of natural features that are absent at Oakmont)?

In so many ways, Oakmont epitomizes great golf course architecture and it offers the best example of the fecundity of man's mind in building something special from an unpromising start. Best yet, they did so while being true to the overall landscape.

With the suspension of play today, I hope we get lots of extra TV coverage tomorrow and Sunday. Back that (and Aronomink last week) with The Old Course next week and it truly doesn't get any better!

Cheers,

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
How much earth moving was done to create such a great golf course on such a flat site?  Seems counter-intuitive to one's understanding of the technological capabilities of the day.

Are the greens manufactured, entirely?  Or, is it that the site was just without dramatic topographical features but subtle enough ones to make greens very interesting?

Is there a chance Ran posts a response or will this be another thread started and abandoned? ;D
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Not much going on at Winged Foot and the West Course has to be of comparable quality to Oakmont...no?

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ran, that's an interesting question.  Also your term - "Delta" in thought provoking.  I had to re-read your post a couple times to see what you meant.  Is there possibly a more descriptive or intuitive term than "delta?"  I see what you mean, but it took a minute to figure nout what you meant.

It's a tough question I need to think about more...the two times I've seen Oakmonster, I've loved the property.  It has some hills and tumbles up and down ruggedly, so I'm not sure that's it's the sow's ear that you seem to think, but I never saw what it looked like in 1903...are there any pix floating around that we can post here?

I will say this...Oakmonster is still my fave major venue...and that's because of the greens and the sidehill lies in the fairway.  Oakland Hills runs second, then WFW.

I guess I like Monsters:):)
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Not much going on at Winged Foot and the West Course has to be of comparable quality to Oakmont...no?
Jim-I agree. I think that Oakmont is blessed with more varied topography and elevation change so quite possibly WFW did as much or more with the site they were given.

Michael Huber

How much earth moving was done to create such a great golf course on such a flat site?  Seems counter-intuitive to one's understanding of the technological capabilities of the day.

Are the greens manufactured, entirely?  Or, is it that the site was just without dramatic topographical features but subtle enough ones to make greens very interesting?

Is there a chance Ran posts a response or will this be another thread started and abandoned? ;D

The site at oakmont isnt what I would call flat...it's a relativley flat considering Western Pennsylvania is a hilly place.  

#17, particularly from the way way back tees, is steeply uphill. 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
I think it would have to be the best job with a below-average site, when you factor in the clay soils on top of everything else.  It's a heck of a lot easier to doll up a dull site on sandy soils -- see Kingston Heath, for example.

I do not think a lot of earthmoving was done to build Oakmont.  They needed a fair amount of fill in a few places to bench tees and greens into the steep slopes ... you wouldn't want to jump sideways off the back of the back tees on a hole like #9 or #11, for example.  But other than doing that sort of stuff, I don't believe there was much in the way of cut and fill work.


Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
17 approach



3 approach

Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
How much earth moving was done to create such a great golf course on such a flat site?  Seems counter-intuitive to one's understanding of the technological capabilities of the day.

Are the greens manufactured, entirely?  Or, is it that the site was just without dramatic topographical features but subtle enough ones to make greens very interesting?

Is there a chance Ran posts a response or will this be another thread started and abandoned? ;D

Many of the greens are continuations of the fairways, with the fairway just bleeding right into the green.  #1, #8, #9, #10, #12 are the examples that come to mind, and maybe #14.

The front to back sloping greens are a wonder.

There is a delta but (other than the clay), is the site really that bad?  Look at the contours in fairways like #2, #7, #9, #11, #12, #17.....

Me thinks Ran is making too strong a case here.  Where else has a design stood the test of time like Oakmont?

Michael Huber

I suppose this would be a good thread for this question:

When oakmont was built, what was in the valley that the turnpike now occupies?  Was there always a bridge between the clubhouse side and the 2-8 side?


TEPaul

Ran:

First of all, what an interesting premise (somewhat in the form of questions) you made with this thread!

Second, it probably is something of an unanswerable question about how much earth-moving or actual manufacturing of architecture was done at Oakmont when it was designed and first built in 1903.

Third, there is a pretty indicative sort of glorified stick routing map of the golf couse dated 1903 but with no name on it that looks remarkably similar to the course today with the exception of the fact it's shorter and a few greens were moved over the years which are all known.

Given that H.C. Fownes, particularly, and W.C., his son, were so totally in control of all things to do with that club and course for so many years (until the mid-1930s with HC and the late 1940s with W.C.) it appears the golf course was largely routed and designed by them even though perhaps with some collaboration from a few early and very good greenkeepers obviously ending up with the famous Emile Loeffler. And, of course, we know as with some of the other most significant American courses done by that early group of "amateur/sportsmen" architects the actual construction of particularly the bunkering was evolutionary and over much time (perhaps up to 40 years under the Fownses).

I have thought a lot over the years about what exactly was manufactured there and what is essentially natural and my sense is it is probably more natural pre-existing landform grades out there than one might suspect and there are also a number of greens that are essentially just natural pre-existing landforms, specifically the awesome front to back runaway greens of #1 and #10. I think #3 is a fascinating green too as it appears to have been just laid right on a natural ridgeline. In this particular way Oakmont may have some of the most interesting basically natural landform greens out there and probably somewhat akin to Myopia's best natural landform greens or Garden City's.

It should be noted that those three significant American courses were created just a few years from one another and in a very early era for quality architecture in America.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2010, 08:25:56 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

"When oakmont was built, what was in the valley that the turnpike now occupies?  Was there always a bridge between the clubhouse side and the 2-8 side?"


Michael Huber:

Yes, that was railroad tracks that were sunken in there that predated the exsitence of Oakmont GC. When it was widened later and transitioned to the corridor (sunken) of the Pennsylvania Turnpike, they actually had to move the 8th green to the left to make room for the added width of the turnpike. There was always a bridge across the railroad line and then the turnpike.

Matter of fact, for the last US Open in 2007 they had to build a second bridge and apparently a single member paid for the entire thing with the stipulation that they please not tell his wife.  ;)

Bill_Yates

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ran,

It's always great to delve in to any history or discussion of Oakmont.

As for dozers - zero, how about mules followed by men with scrapers.  I firmly believe that the real root of Oakmont's greatness is that it was handmade.  Quite literally, the course was sculpted in bas relief by hand from the rolling Western Pennsylvania hills.  And, like other great masterpieces of its' day, it was probably crafted under the daily oversight of the person with the passion and vision for its' design, in this case, H.C. Fownes.

By looking at each of the greensites, to me all but six (Holes 4, 6, 11, 13, 15 and 16) look like they were built up to any great extent at all.  Most all quite closely follow the flow of the land. Perhaps that's what begs us to play there.

I read this quote somewhere, "With the exception of St Andrews, Oakmont is the oldest course upon which national championships are still being played."  This is a pretty good month for those who love historic architecture.  This week and next week we will see championship golf being played on its' most revered and oldest stages.

 
Bill Yates
www.pacemanager.com 
"When you manage the pace of play, you manage the quality of golf."

Bill_Yates

  • Karma: +0/-0
Sorry, I'm correcting the post above. Third paragraph, "...look like they were not built up to any great extent at all."
Bill Yates
www.pacemanager.com 
"When you manage the pace of play, you manage the quality of golf."

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Wow, I have to disagree. As a relatively good player, I found Oakmont to be the least enjoyable of any of the top courses I have ever played. Way too penal.

Maybe I had an off day or a bad caddy or both, but I could not wait to get off that golf course. I hate rough that allows no escape. It amazes me that everyone raves about this course.

I have a good body in Pittsburg, a +1, who absolutely hates the course.


There isn't much I don't get, but this one and Seminole, they just amaze me.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Wade Schueneman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ran, I like that you appear to have adopted a Michelin type rating system.  Are you a gourmand as well?
Maybe it is common knowledge to the rest of the crew, but I would love to hear what your other AAA courses are.

I also like your use of the term "delta."  It makes me wonder at your training.  Mathematics, physics, engineering?

Peter Pallotta

"As is the case with Friar's Head, the golfer leaves the course [Oakmont] actually thinking it occupies a very good site for golf."

Ran - I hope you don't mind some off-the-top-of-my-head riffing on that sentence, as follows:

And that golfer would be right, wouldn't he?   Those courses do occupy very good sites for golf.

The proof is in the pudding, no?  

Both sites proved to be very good sites for golf, didn't they?

How else did Fownes and C&C manage to design and build two world-class courses on sites that weren't very good?  

No -- perhaps what is wrong instead is the initial (though post-course) judgement about the quality of those sites.

Perhaps our basic theories and pre-conceptions (might I even say, biases) about what constitutes a good site for golf need to be looked at again.

Yes, exceptions sometimes prove the rule. On the other hand, enough exceptions show up the rule as nothing of the sort.  (I think I must've channelled Sean Arble for that sentence. Not that I know whether he agrees with it or not, but the phrase "nothing of the sort" gives it an Arblenian feel, don't you think?)

Perhaps if people were less quick to judge sites as poor, owners and architects would be less quick to start mucking about massively in order to 'improve' them, and/or less quick to lower their own expectations about what kind/quality of golf course could be built there.

I wonder - did father and son Fownes mope about the house and sulk their way through their work complaining about the poor quality of the site they had to deal with?
  
Peter

« Last Edit: July 09, 2010, 10:47:37 PM by PPallotta »

astavrides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Wow, I have to disagree. As a relatively good player, I found Oakmont to be the least enjoyable of any of the top courses I have ever played. Way too penal.

Maybe I had an off day or a bad caddy or both, but I could not wait to get off that golf course. I hate rough that allows no escape. It amazes me that everyone raves about this course.

I have a good body in Pittsburg, a +1, who absolutely hates the course.


There isn't much I don't get, but this one and Seminole, they just amaze me.

What did Betty think of it?

TEPaul

"Wow, I have to disagree. As a relatively good player, I found Oakmont to be the least enjoyable of any of the top courses I have ever played. Way too penal.

Maybe I had an off day or a bad caddy or both, but I could not wait to get off that golf course. I hate rough that allows no escape. It amazes me that everyone raves about this course.

I have a good body in Pittsburg, a +1, who absolutely hates the course.


There isn't much I don't get, but this one and Seminole, they just amaze me."



cary:

I understand exactly what you're saying; I really do, believe me. Nevertheless, and given that, in my opinion, those remarks really do define you as a both a golfer and a golf architecture analyst.

Today, the Open at Oakmont got about half rained out and I didn't watch much but I happened to catch the interview with Paula Creamer. What a gal she is----attractive, bubbly, smiley, while at the same time being both remarkably thoughtful and articulate about Oakmont. Ultimately, she said she loved it and she loved its seemingly extreme challenge, the challenge to shot choices, shot execution, the challenges to a player's ability to concentrate throughout with no let up etc, etc. And then she said her first round at Oakmont was so tiring it was the first time she took a nap after a round; and then she laughed. She's got the right attitude and I have no doubt she wasn't kidding about anything she said.

In my book, Oakmont, where I've played three state amateurs and officiated another or so is a very different type of course than most all I know.  I feel that off the tees it is the most "center-directed" course I know. It makes virtually no difference, at least to me off the tees directionally where you are in any fairway (I'll put some qualifier on the on a few holes later). To me the whole deal off the tees was to get it in the fairway or ideally the first cut (which I liked better than the fairway ;)) and just keep it out of that primary rough and out of most bunkers and up near their faces.

However, distance off the tees was a whole different deal for me---I needed it and the whole thing at Oakmont off the tees was how much I could hit and still keep it out of the rough----unfortunately for me I was short enough I pretty much needed to hit driver anyway.

Approaching those greens and where to put it on them never really concerned me that much and I probably wasn't good enough to have to worry about it that much anyway; I just wanted to hit greens, if possible and then go from there.

I like Oakmont, no maybe love it, because it produced that sort of unique challenge in a few ways which even the likes of Merion and Pine Valley didn't in various ways.

And those greens and their speed, even back then; we never saw anything like it anywhere else. Even that had its own special ramifications. You might start by hitting putts too hard and go long, and then you'd adjust and hit them too soft and leave it too short. But as I was telling Sully today they were so fast a ten foot putt seemed like a three foot putt and with that 50 year old Oakmont poa strain out their they were so pure if you got the ball on line it was almost like it would ride a train track!

And at the end, particularly if you managed to actually keep your concentration throughout and play and score well you were so tired that like Paula Creamer you needed to take a nap.

I used to stay in that Comfort Inn just off the Turnpike. I think I went to bed earlier in that motel around Oakmont than at any other tournament I played in.  


I'm sorry for that post because even though it has a lot to do with my feelings about Oakmont it doesn't have much of anything to do with Ran's question about Oakmont's "delta" at least how Ran framed "delta."   ;)
« Last Edit: July 10, 2010, 12:47:24 AM by TEPaul »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ran

I am a bit confused.  I can understand the clay soil aspect of Oakmont making for a poor site, but this would in the main effect the course the most during the shutdown season.  I am betting with the ditches and 100+ years the club has sorted the drainage issues due to clay soils.  The part I can't understand is you are saying the site is mediocre at best,  but little earth moving ocurred to create a great golf course.  Something has to give here as you can't have it both ways or are you saying Oakmont is a marvelous engineering job because of drainage improvements?

Ciao       
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
The fill under 17 tee is enormous and I think it demonstrates the commitment that the club has for building whatever it takes to get a hole just right.

Jim Nugent

"Wow, I have to disagree. As a relatively good player, I found Oakmont to be the least enjoyable of any of the top courses I have ever played. Way too penal.

Maybe I had an off day or a bad caddy or both, but I could not wait to get off that golf course. I hate rough that allows no escape. It amazes me that everyone raves about this course.

I have a good body in Pittsburg, a +1, who absolutely hates the course.


There isn't much I don't get, but this one and Seminole, they just amaze me."



cary:

I understand exactly what you're saying; I really do, believe me. Nevertheless, and given that, in my opinion, those remarks really do define you as a both a golfer and a golf architecture analyst.

Today, the Open at Oakmont got about half rained out and I didn't watch much but I happened to catch the interview with Paula Creamer. What a gal she is----attractive, bubbly, smiley, while at the same time being both remarkably thoughtful and articulate about Oakmont. Ultimately, she said she loved it and she loved its seemingly extreme challenge, the challenge to shot choices, shot execution, the challenges to a player's ability to concentrate throughout with no let up etc, etc. And then she said her first round at Oakmont was so tiring it was the first time she took a nap after a round; and then she laughed. She's got the right attitude and I have no doubt she wasn't kidding about anything she said.


It sounds like Paula played a very different course than Cary did.  One with much lower rough.  Bet Cary would like the course a lot more now. 

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
The green on #1 was certainly built up slightly in the back, but not that much. If you can imagine that there might be over a foot of topdressing build up here over the years, there really wasn't that much fill brought here.

And so many of the greens flow seamlessly with the fairways. Obviously when you build a green this close to fairway grade, you have to dig down much deeper to build bunkers. What I would love to see is a schematic of the drainage system under those bunkers. A lot of those drain lines would have to be very deep.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2010, 07:08:32 AM by Bradley Anderson »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Whenever the quality of Oakmont comes up, I think of Larry Nelson's story about winning the US Open there.

First two holes, first round Nelson looked out at the narrow fw's, high roughs and deep, tight bunkers and locked up. He recalled that he hit his first two drives off line and started bogey, double bogey.

So, Nelson recounted, he changed tactics. From then on he aligned himself on each tee, avoiding looking at the fw to the point of actually closing his eyes and just let it rip. It turned out to work pretty well for him.

So puzzle me this. How good is a golf course if at least one great player thought the best way to play it was to intentionally ignore its most important architectural features? Put differently, Nelson thought the less he knew about the hazards of the course, the better he was able to play it.

Nelson (inadvertently) backs into an interesting working definition of an anti-strategic course. On such courses, the less you think about the course's design features, the better you are likely to play it. It's MacK and Behr upside down.

Bob   

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Wow, I have to disagree. As a relatively good player, I found Oakmont to be the least enjoyable of any of the top courses I have ever played. Way too penal.

Maybe I had an off day or a bad caddy or both, but I could not wait to get off that golf course. I hate rough that allows no escape. It amazes me that everyone raves about this course.

I have a good body in Pittsburg, a +1, who absolutely hates the course.


There isn't much I don't get, but this one and Seminole, they just amaze me.

What did Betty think of it?


Bette hated it
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta