[Richard Choi]

Dan, what does variety mean to you when you hit the middle of the fairway and green on every F*#$KING shot!!!

[Dan Moore]

Variety in the spot from which you hit the shot that lands in the center bunker on 14. 

[Rob Rigg]

Tim,

I agree with David - Sand Hills, Chambers and Bandon Trails are all about the same walkability rating for me - I have walked 36 at all of those courses but that does not mean it is an easy walk. Ballyneal is a much easier walk IMO - similar to Pac Dunes or Old Mac - I could walk 54 a day there no problem. The walking experience at BN is also much better - obviously - you wake up, eat breakfast, grab your bag and head to the first tee - there is no drive from where you are staying to the course in a cart.

I understand why Spaulding prefers SH to BN - in addition to the fact that he can get a cart with a 12 pack and cooler at one and not the other - I would imagine that a lot of plus handicaps and pros would rate SH higher than BN because it is a sterner test where scoring is possible for well executed shots that can be landed closer to the pin. The strength of BN lies in its variety and consistent strength of holes and its truly "links" character. The putting surfaces at BN are a great equalizer between handicaps because short birdie putts are quite rare.

I had a much easier time scoring at SH than I did at BN when the wind was helping and a much tougher time of scoring at SH than BN when the wind was against.

At BN, the routing tends to change direction much more frequently while SH can play with/against the wind for a fairly long stretch.

Clearly two very different styles of routing, pacing and play.

[David Mihm]

Dan,

First of all, as I commented earlier, half of my goal in the first numerical assessment of SH was to see if Rich would pound the table hard enough to break his wrist before his match the next morning.

Sand Hills is certainly unique and I give it some major points for that. And I think when it opened in 1996 I probably would have rated it a Doak 8 or 9 because no one had ever seen ANYTHING like it in this country.  As C&C have gotten more and more commissions and Doak has come into his own (and even Kidd's style has evolved) I think SH is less of a visual shock than it was when it opened.  

Individually, holes like 1, 2, 14, 17, and 18 would have been pretty spectacular but as we got deep into the back 9, I felt that I had already hit the exact same approach shot (with the exact same result--a ball that trundled 4/5 of the way up the false front and came back 30 yards down the fairway) several times earlier in the round.

In terms of clunkers, 13 was the only one in that category for me...perhaps that is because I don't own a club I can hit 225 yards on a frozen rope with backspin like you can .

In terms of gruelingly difficult courses, Oakmont, Aberdeen, and LA North were far more enjoyable for me (and rate in my top 10 courses anywhere).

[David Mihm]

I understand why Spaulding prefers SH to BN - in addition to the fact that he can get a cart with a 12 pack and cooler at one and not the other

Clearly the, um, sophisticated(?) boozepurse he was forced to carry knocks BN at least two notches down his scale.

[Tom Huckaby]

Wow, I leave for a few hours and a bar fight breaks out.
 

David, you give well-reasoned opinions here.

I just tend to disagree withn just about every single word you write.

Just consider me on Spaulding's side in the argument you had at Beardapalooza.

I find Sand Hills to be the greatest course on this planet.  I have played every one you mention except Oakmont.  And note also, I loved Ballyneal, as Pacific Dunes, and all the rest.

So.. there's little reason for us to argue... going point for point is just not worth the bandwith.  Anyone who calls 13 at Sand Hills a "clunker"... well there's someone I'm just never going to find any common ground with, considering I put it in the top 5 par 3's I have ever played.  Oh yes it is tough... but oh yes it is thrilling.

Oh well.  I wish you could see the Sand Hills I did.  Because man oh man did we see two different courses.

Cheers!


To Richard - please do see it some day, and try to keep an open mind until then.

As for the walk, heck it's not that bad.  But it's also kinda cool to have the choice to take a cart.  The course is much better walking.. but man those 2nd rounds of the day, it is much better to ride.

[Sean Leary]

I understand why Spaulding prefers SH to BN - in addition to the fact that he can get a cart with a 12 pack and cooler at one and not the other

Clearly the, um, sophisticated(?) boozepurse he was forced to carry knocks BN at least two notches down his scale.

I bet it was a Polo Ralph Lauren beer bag.....He is a man of class...

[Rob Rigg]

For those who rate SH above BN - where do some of the other top moderns lie in your pantheon?

Are there other top moderns that play more similarly to SH that you tend to prefer over courses like Pac and Trails at Bandon that play more similarly to BN?

Tom - Especially interested to get your opinion here.

[Sean Leary]

Rob,

Serious question. Do you prefer Ballyneal to SH because it is walking only? Perhaps you are biased in your own way (like Spaulding is based on beer carrying capabilities in carts at SH)? Or to be more exact, do you think you are influenced by that in terms of judging the two?

[David Mihm]

Tom, I think Rich has already made up his mind that SH will be a Doak 10, given how much he and I disagree about his other Doak 10 -- Chambers

We will definitely just agree to disagree on this one!  Still interested to hear your response on other top moderns.

[Rob Rigg]

Rob,

Serious question. Do you prefer Ballyneal to SH because it is walking only? Perhaps you are biased in your own way (like Spaulding is based on beer carrying capabilities in carts at SH)?

Sean,

Not at all - with the walking element removed I still prefer BN because it is as close to "my ideal" type of course that I have ever played - at least in the US. That is no slight against SH, it is a great course, but maybe not exactly "my kind" of great course - I really enjoy tracks that are fescue based and offer a ton of different options on the ground and in the air. On my last round at Ballyneal I spent about 15 minutes trying different shots around some of the greens since there was no one behind us - the thought never crossed my mind at Sand Hills. I was like a kid in a candy store - it was awesome.

[Sean Leary]

This fescue thing puzzles me. I have played Ballyneal and all of the Bandon courses. But places like Prairie Dunes play just as firm and fast with non fescue, and the chipping areas there give you more options there around the greens as you can putt it or flop it. PD is more like SH in that there are false fronts and uphill approaches that make it less of a bounce it in course, but on the holes you can bounce it in, it plays just like the fescue courses. What am I missing?

[Tom Huckaby]

Rob:  if you can sit at any of these greens and not want to try shots, then I don't know what you're looking for... the fact the thought never occurred to you, well I just don't know what to make of that:  2, 3, 6, 8, 11, 14 - just off the top of my head.  I could find creative things to do on these particularly, but all the rest as well.  Speed and tilt along with contour tend to allow for such things.

And if you want options, well... wow I see more of them, for all shots, at Sand Hills then any other course I have ever played.  That's a large reason why I love it so much.

Ballyneal has these things as well.  I just find the intensity ratched up a lot more at Sand Hills, as well as the options, for exactly the reasons Sean states, and I described earlier.

Strange how reasonable people see this so very differently. Oh well.

In any case...

Guys, I don't tend to separate moderns and classics - I think that's a cop out.  I made a list of the top 25 courses I have ever played... made a year or so ago.  Can't find it now.  But as I recall, Pacifi Dunes was in the top 10.  I haven't played Rock Creek nor Old MacDonlad , but I bet it they did they'd make top 25.  Ballyneal was an honorable mention, as would be Cleark Creek.  I've been lucky to poay a lot of great golf courses.. so the classics were pretty strong.  If I were to do it modern only, well.. all of those are in teh pantheon.  They aqre all very very great.  I just fin d Sand Hils to be the best not only of the moderns, but also of all courses.

[Rob Rigg]

Sean,

I am talking about options into the greens and I guess I tend to equate them with fescue (but it is possible with other grasses).

The greens at Ballyneal are layered with big movement contrasted with subtlety that I have never encountered elsewhere - it took me about 4 rounds to figure out all of the different ways to play into the greens. There were often two to four ways to attack a pin from within 50 yards of the green.

On most courses there is one way to "properly" attack the pin - two at most - for any given green.

In my experience - fescue allows for greater consistency between fairway and green height and speed and allow for a more interesting game. If you look at photos of SH and BN it is much more obvious at SH where the fairways end and the greens begin.

At BN, Pac Dunes, Old Mac, BT, etc. the greens and fairways blend as one and it is often hard to tell if you are on or off when it comes to marking your ball.

I have never played Prairie Dunes so cannot compare. The greens at SH were PURE and like lightning - a country club's dream.

[Rob Rigg]

Rob:  if you can sit at any of these greens and not want to try shots, then I don't know what you're looking for... the fact the thought never occurred to you, well I just don't know what to make of that:  2, 3, 6, 8, 11, 14 - just off the top of my head.  I could find creative things to do on these particularly, but all the rest as well.  Speed and tilt along with contour tend to allow for such things.

Tom,

I found that the direct route at SH was often the best - on several holes I tried to hit running or putting approaches but was beaten away by large contours, often 25 yards or more off the green. The margin for error on creative shots tended to be much tighter which made me resort to the aerial game a lot more often. I am not suggesting that creative shotmaking is not out there - but I did not think there were as many of them and they were less diverse than those at BN where three different approach angles/shots could lead to the same "tap in" outcome.

If memory serves 8 and 14 were two holes that I hit some pretty cool shots around the green - if I played the course more often then I might find more.

At SH I would tend to putt an eight footer at the hole in a normal fashion - at BN I would turn left and send it 15 feet up a hill and then back down at the hole where it had a great chance of going in. For me, that's fun, for some people that is stupid. To each his own.

[Tom Huckaby]

Rob:

Gotcha.  So you prefer trick shots to actually playing the game with intent to get the ball in the hole; and you prefer to have no penalty for poorly struck shots.   

My friend, if you want to hit weird backwards putts, you can do that at Sand Hills also - you're just gonna need to get a crazy pin position, same as Ballyneal.  But yes, Ballyneal being generally slower, there is indeed less penalty for failure.

I just tend to like the higher intensity at Sand Hills, that's all.  I find it thrilling that a poor shot can make you end up 25 yards off line.  My response to it was to bear down.. figure out the best way... and do it, if I could.  Sometimes that was aerial, sometimes not.  But every time it was thrilling.

And it was just a little bit more so than at Ballyneal, where there was less penalty for failure.

So yep, to each his own.

[Matt Bosela]

Wow - a busy day at work followed by some time with my wife and son and I miss all the fireworks!

I'm elated with the response to the thread and the ensuing discussion.  Working on the 8th and 9th holes right now.

[Tom Huckaby]

Matt, this course has always been a lightning rod, for whatever reason... this is just the latest in MANY threads discussing its virtues or lack thereof, with most of them coming since Ballyneal came to being.  The courses are just so similar in purpose and general look (while being very different when one gets beyond that), it's just very normal to compare and contrast.

But man let's do move on to 8 and 9... nothing new has been covered today, other than this course being called a Doak 5 for the first time.

 

[Keith OHalloran]

Tom, the fact that the course has been so hotly debated especially since the advent of BN is interesting. I know they are in the same (very) general location, but we don't get as many debates in regard to Shinnecock vs. National on this site do we? Is it just that this site has members of both SH and BN on it? Is it because of the respective designers?

[Tom Huckaby]

Keith - over the long haul there has been plenty of debate about Shinnecock v. National, Pebble Beach v. Cypress, pretty much every pair of geographically close or otherwise similar courses you can think of!  This forum has covered it all.

With regard to Ballyneal and Sand Hills, I think it's just because thanks to the very gracious members of each course who tend to post here, many GCAers have indeed played one or the other or both.  Thus many have personal experience, and that of course makes the conversations much easier.

Of course, the fact one is C&C and the other Doak doesn't hurt things in this forum which is a bastion of architect-idolization.

 
TH

[Scott Szabo]

Dan, what does variety mean to you when you hit the middle of the fairway and green on every F*#$KING shot!!!

Do I sense someone is still a little sore after a great match at the Yucca?   

[Rob Rigg]

Rob:

Gotcha.  So you prefer trick shots to actually playing the game with intent to get the ball in the hole; and you prefer to have no penalty for poorly struck shots.   

Tom - Yes, sometimes. Not usually when playing in a match - although pulling something off that is "unique" in competition is a ton of fun. I play a unique game of golf and really enjoy doing so.

My friend, if you want to hit weird backwards putts, you can do that at Sand Hills also - you're just gonna need to get a crazy pin position, same as Ballyneal.  But yes, Ballyneal being generally slower, there is indeed less penalty for failure.

There are also more options to do so at BN based on my experience at both courses. The number of elevated approaches at SH make anything but an aerial attack quite challenging on more holes than I would prefer. This does not diminish the quality of SH at all - it is a stern but fair test of shotmaking. It just became repetitive.

I just tend to like the higher intensity at Sand Hills, that's all.  I find it thrilling that a poor shot can make you end up 25 yards off line.  My response to it was to bear down.. figure out the best way... and do it, if I could.  Sometimes that was aerial, sometimes not.  But every time it was thrilling.

I found myself grinding more at SH on the final holes because they were into the wind and scoring really well on the holes with a tailwind (a driver, 9 iron, and short putt for eagle was something that doesn't happen everyday - neither is three birdies in one round). I do like the penal element of a missed shot at Sand Hills - you can get the same thing at BN if you come up short on some of the greens. SH is more intense, nothing wrong with that at all. It is a really fun challenge when you are on your game - just not as fun as BN for me.

And it was just a little bit more so than at Ballyneal, where there was less penalty for failure.

So yep, to each his own.

[Matt Bosela]

8th Hole - 367 Yards Par 4

The wonderful short two-shot 8th is played back toward the clubhouse and in the opposite direction to the previous hole.  Obviously, the ever-changing wind patterns at Sand Hills allow this to be a hole that can be driven under the right circumstances if you're playing from the appropriate tee deck, as it's only 293 yards from the 'Square' tees and 236 yards from the 'Circle' tees.

Again, there is plenty of width off this tee and the smart and safe play is to aim well left of the cross bunkers and get the turbo kick off the kicker slopes down the left side of the fairway.  This will open up shots played to a left or back pin but obviously will be problematic for a pin cut on the right side, as it brings that little pot bunker that sits in the front middle of the horseshoe-shaped green into play.

And therein lies the absolute brilliance of this hole.  The green design here in its amphitheater setting is particularly inspired, with the ability to utilize the ground game to roll the ball onto the putting surface and use the slopes to move the ball either from left to right or from right to left, depending on the side of the green you want to work with.  Similar to the bunker on the 6th hole at Riviera, you can work your ball around it here on the ground, even from the fairway short of the green.  The aerial game can also work here but be careful, as the severe back to front and right to left pitch of the putting surface can result in many balls spinning back up to 40 feet and into that deadly bunker.

Rob Rigg mentioned that he could spend 20 minutes on many of the greens at Ballyneal, trying many different types of shots and reasoned that he didn't get inspired to do the same at Sand Hills.  I'd argue that the second and eighth greens at Sand Hills come close to matching up to any green that I've played for fun factor, including the awesome 7th at Ballyneal and I spent plenty of time at all three during my trip, with a smile never leaving my face the whole time.

The 7th and 8th are both world-class short fours but if I had the time to only play one over and over again at the club, I'd pick this hole purely because of the great fun that can be had around the green.

Tee Shot at Sunset


Tee Shot Mid-Day


Approach from Right Fairway Bunker


Approach from Middle of Fairway at Sunset


Harris Nepon hitting approach in mid-afternoon


Approach from Left Side of Fairway


Long View from Behind Green Looking Back down Fairway


Closeup View from Behind Green Looking Back down Fairway at Sunset

[David Mihm]

FWIW, the 8th was my favorite hole at Sand Hills.  Truly an awesome green complex and great fairway contours.

[Sean Leary]

Sean,

I am talking about options into the greens and I guess I tend to equate them with fescue (but it is possible with other grasses).

The greens at Ballyneal are layered with big movement contrasted with subtlety that I have never encountered elsewhere - it took me about 4 rounds to figure out all of the different ways to play into the greens. There were often two to four ways to attack a pin from within 50 yards of the green.

On most courses there is one way to "properly" attack the pin - two at most - for any given green.

In my experience - fescue allows for greater consistency between fairway and green height and speed and allow for a more interesting game. If you look at photos of SH and BN it is much more obvious at SH where the fairways end and the greens begin.

At BN, Pac Dunes, Old Mac, BT, etc. the greens and fairways blend as one and it is often hard to tell if you are on or off when it comes to marking your ball.

I have never played Prairie Dunes so cannot compare. The greens at SH were PURE and like lightning - a country club's dream.

I understand. Fescue is great, as it does promote firm and fast. But it is unidimensional around the greens for most. Putting or bump in run are the only realistic options.

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