[Tom Huckaby]

Richard:

If Sand Hills is a Doak 5, the rest of the world is filled with Doak 4s.

I find none of those criticisms to be valid at all.  I can only guess that the person making them played the course after torrential rains or something.  I have never found it to be soft at all.. in my three times there, it was always very very firm and fast... and in fact the ground game was often the best play, if not only play one had.  There are several raised greens (a tired critique given in here many times before) but not to the point of repetition.. and given the play is often to roll the ball up them, I don't get the criticism.  I see no repetition either in terms of the tee shots or shots to the greens.  I suppose the last point might be valid, but so few people see the course, it kinda loses logic... especially since I've yet to play, read about or hear about a course that surpasses it.

I'd advise keeping the skepticism; or at the very least, wait to see for yourself.

TH

[Richard Choi]

Tom, but aren't they bent grass greens? And I have read from many different articles on how SH does like to keep them immaculate for its national members who only visit few times a year. How firm could they be? Do you get that hollow "thunk" sound when you land on the green like you do at Bandon and Ballyneal? Can you bounce a ball from 30 yards short of the green? That was a pretty popular play at Ballyneal last weekend even through the course was a green as I have ever seen it due to all the rain they had recently.

[Tom Huckaby]

Richard:

Yes, yes, and yes.
At least the three times I have been there, it has played firmer and faster than Ballyneal did either of the two times I was there, or Bandon any of the three trips I have made there.  The greens are bent, yes, but they also played very very firm when I was there.

It just has to be seen to be believed, I suppose.

But it also might depend on weather the day(s) one is there, as it does at every golf course.

TH

[Jason Topp]

My reverse Mucci!

-The course is too soft with too severe false fronts to allow a ground game
-It looks like a links course, but it is just a facade.

It is not a links course to my mind.  Instead it is a unique challenge that does not fit neatly into any category.

With respect to firmness - I played it during a full day of rain and the day after.  It was plenty firm both days.  It looked very green but the ball ran forever.

I have heard the false front argument before - particularly with respect to 1 and 13.  I don't buy it.  I think they are a terrific way to impose fear on the golfer while giving everyone options for recovery shots.  Keep in mind, in many instances the approach is a very short iron with an option to reach the green in less than regulation.

As to ground game - I would hazard a guess that the ground game is as viable an option at Sand Hills as it is at Dornoch.  The only hole where it is not a reasonable alternative at all is number 17 and I recall individuals very familiar with the course arguing that one should use the bit of fairway short right in certain conditions.

-Raised tee, drive to a lower fairway, hit approach to a raised green. Rinse and repeat.-

I can only think of 4 holes that fit this description (1, 4, 7, 11).  Those holes are a par five, reachable or a bear depending on wind, a 485 yard downhill par four, a driveable par four and a short nondriveable par four.  Each hole presents a very unique challenge distinct from the others.


It is over-rated because it was the first to start the modern renaissance, but it has been surpassed by many since.

As to whether others have surpassed it - I have played some of the contenders (Barnbougle, Pacific Dunes, Bandon Dunes, Bandon Trails, Kingsley) and do not share that view.  I have never been to Ballyneal and I am sure it is wonderful but I cannot imagine how it could be considered to have "surpassed" Sand Hills.

[Keith OHalloran]

Richard, I have played Sand Hills twice, once in July of '09 after a record rainfall and once in JUn '10. I have only played Bandon once, that was in April '10. Obviously the time of year and the weather before each trip affects the conditions, however I did not think that Bandon played any Firmer or Faster than Snad HIlls. In fact, the greens at Sand Hills were def daster than all the greens at Bandon (in my limited experience.) As for the ground game, I had the pleasure of playing with Neil Regan, and he was able to PUTT from over a hundred yards several times during the weekend, in fact, he proved that on several holes, with some imagination, that the putt may have been better than any chip.
Interestingly, the raised and sloped nature of the greens were precisely why Neil did so well with the ground game. For instance, the second green is slighlty uphill with a large slop on the right side. From 30 yeards, Neil  was able to use the slope to putt all the way up the hill, kill the speed and have the ball trickle down to the hole. I am not sure any flop shot would have gotten closer.
I think that maybe your friend went on a day or weekend that was severely hampered by previous rain. I myself have not had that experience.

[Eric Smith]

OK, I was going to start a new thread about this, but I will just do it on this one.

Recently, I was talking to someone (who will remain anonymous) who declared emphatically that Sand Hills is a Doak 5!!!

Richard,

This is a rather bold opinion.  Was this person, I'm guessing he has a GCA log-in, willing to participate in this thread you were going to start?  Surely if he was "emphatic" about this opinion, there is no harm in coming out and saying it himself and seeing where the debate may lead.  It is a fascinating opinion and it would be interesting to further explore the 'why'?

Could someone please post the definition of a Doak 5?  Thanks.

[jonathan_becker]

5. Well above the average golf course, but the middle of my scale. A good course to choose if you’re in the vicinity and looking for a game, but don’t spend another day away from home to see it, unless your home is in Alaska.

[Sean Leary]

Gotta be a 5 at best, I think. There are no trees.....

I am guessing that this person thinks Ballyneal is a 10. Am I right? (I have no idea who it is btw)

[Keith OHalloran]

Wow, that is funny. I am assuming that Richard's friend was not thinking of the actual definition as much as a mid range score (Not that it makes it much better). But the line about not spending another day away from home is comical when it comes to Sand Hills. When I have been there, it has always been for far too short, and I did no exaclty get homesick.

[Eric Smith]

5. Well above the average golf course, but the middle of my scale. A good course to choose if you’re in the vicinity and looking for a game, but don’t spend another day away from home to see it, unless your home is in Alaska.

This seals the deal on my seeing Ashburnham in September. Thanks JB.

[Richard Choi]

I am not going to reveal the identity of the person as that is not really that important.

But let me ask a couple of more questions.

1. For a ground game to be viable, the speed on the fairway vs green should be similar (within 2 or 3 feet on stimp). Otherwise, the guessing game gets to be too much. Are the speed on the green similar to the speed on the fairways? They are at Bandon and Ballyneal.

2. Isn't Whistling Straits in similar vains as Sand Hills? Looks like a true links course, but doesn't quite play like one with bent grass greens? What are the main differences between Sand Hills and Whistling Straits (specifically, other than pure aesthetics)? Why is one beloved here and the other treated so indifferently?

[Jon Spaulding]

Dick Choi:

I believe said moron was at the Yucca......and I think he gave it a whopping 6. Even Halliday, with all of his hermaphroditic shortcomings, rates it higher than that.

My crack team of C&C Music Factory Butt Boys tried, at length to convince said moron that Sand Hills is indeed a 10, which I firmly believe. Even a Blue Moon frontal attack would not work.

In the words of my hero....."SIGH".

[Richard Choi]

hermaphroditic shortcomings... That is CLASSIC!

ROFL!!!!

[Jon Spaulding]

I am not going to reveal the identity of the person as that is not really that important.

But let me ask a couple of more questions.

1. For a ground game to be viable, the speed on the fairway vs green should be similar (within 2 or 3 feet on stimp). Otherwise, the guessing game gets to be too much. Are the speed on the green similar to the speed on the fairways? They are at Bandon and Ballyneal.

2. Isn't Whistling Straits in similar vains as Sand Hills? Looks like a true links course, but doesn't quite play like one with bent grass greens? What are the main differences between Sand Hills and Whistling Straits (specifically, other than pure aesthetics)? Why is one beloved here and the other treated so indifferently?

1 = yes, they are similar in my experience.

2 = no, it has little or nothing to do with Kohler. The differences are too many to list out during the work week, and I would rather change poopy diapers on the weekend.

Also, get back on that new OS so I can dump this iPhone

[Wyatt Halliday]

Spaulding:

I thought we agreed not to speak of your late night solicitation. Oh, and one man does not constitute a crack team...unless your name is Tim Raines.

Pull: You can play the ground game at Sand Hills, but it's not the preferred method if you are intent on scoring.
Yank: Ballyneal is Tom Doak's Long Cove.

I will now rinse the sink.

[Tom Huckaby]

"Pull: You can play the ground game at Sand Hills, but it's not the preferred method if you are intent on scoring."

Not sure one can make that generalization.
For those with the great skill required to hit spinning shots off of tight lies, flying it to the hole for a hop and stop is typically the better play.  I watched Pat Mucci kill me doing this, in general.  But there were also times that even for a great player like him, the better play was to keep it along the ground... he killed me doing that also.

For those without such skill or confidence, there does seem to usually be a way to roll the ball at least decently.  I managed to score quite well with this method, hiding my short-game deficiencies.

What was vexing at Sand Hills though was there were a few times that the best shot was indeed to channel my inner Mucci, suck it up and put a wedge on the ball.  That is, it did indeed make more sense to go over something rather than around it.  This ratcheted up the intensity... and also required more planning for the previous miss... that is, for a guy like me with a Joe-average, unconfident wedge game, there were plenty of times I really had to plan in terms of a "don't miss there or we're dead" kinda thing.  Add to that the options for using backboards, side boards, mounds etc. to help get the ball to the hole if I couldn't channel my Mucci, and well...

The variety of it all made for supremely fun play.

But then again, most great courses work this way.

[JC Jones]

I am not going to reveal the identity of the person as that is not really that important.

But let me ask a couple of more questions.

1. For a ground game to be viable, the speed on the fairway vs green should be similar (within 2 or 3 feet on stimp). Otherwise, the guessing game gets to be too much. Are the speed on the green similar to the speed on the fairways? They are at Bandon and Ballyneal.

2. Isn't Whistling Straits in similar vains as Sand Hills? Looks like a true links course, but doesn't quite play like one with bent grass greens? What are the main differences between Sand Hills and Whistling Straits (specifically, other than pure aesthetics)? Why is one beloved here and the other treated so indifferently?

Yes, this is deserving of its own thread.  I'd love to see the discourse outside of a hole by hole thread.

There is no shame in that opinion or that thread (of course this is coming from the man who started a thread labeling 99% of Florida courses as Doak 0's)

[Tony Weiler]

There is no shame in that opinion or that thread (of course this is coming from the man who started a thread labeling 99% of Florida courses as Doak 0's)
[/quote]

An instant classic!

[Tim Bert]

Richard - I will try a more balanced response since you are getting the over the top love responses to counter the obviously under-clubbed review. When everyone gushes yes, yes, yes I think it can be hard to believe. Try this out for size. The one trip I enjoyed at Sand Hills it was NOT as firm and fast as Pacific Dunes has been on every visit i have made to Bandon. Now, 3 of my 4 trips to Bandon have been in the dry warm summer season. Sand Hills was also not as firm and fast as Kingsley in my one visit there.  I have been to Ballyneal on three occasions and on two of them Ballyneal was slower than my visit to Sand Hills and on my third and most recent visit Ballyneal was faster. Wild Horse was also running faster.

Now that is just level setting. Faster doesn't always equal better. Sand Hills is an amazing course, certainly one of the best in the country and probably the world though my golf experiences are domestic. Which course runs faster is nitpicking as all the courses I mentioned were playing sufficiently firm enough to be enjoyable.

There is NO comparison to Whistling Straits. Straits was pure faux links when I visited. Sand Hills played like the real deal. Maybe not quite as firm and fast as the others but the ground game was alive and it was plenty fast.

Hopefully a balanced yet still glowing review will convince you.

[Michael Dugger]

Bent grass greens can play plenty firm if maintained correctly.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tim:

Well done, well said.  That is a fine and balanced response.  A lot of this does turn on weather conditions, time of year, etc.  as I said early on.  In my experience all three times at Sand Hills, it was indeed firmer and faster than the others mentioned, each time I have been to those; but then again Wild Horse was even more so the one time I was there; and my local muni beats them all in this respect.  But I never was at Sand Hills after any rain, so who knows?  In any case, we can only base it on our experiences.  And the bottom line remains that firmer and faster does not necessarily equal better, as you quite nicely explained.

Just careful with the aspersions...

I for one did not go over the top nor gush.
Not this time.  
I just answered the questions.

But oh well, it is a course worth gushing about.  

[Richard Choi]

When I think of Fast & Firm, I think the emphasis is on "Firm". And my understanding was that while bent grass green could be tricked to play firm for a specific event/week, you can't really keep it that way for a whole season. If I am wrong, I would be happy to learn more about it.

Also when I think "Fast", it is not pure green speed I am thinking about, I am more interested in fast fairways. Plenty of soft bent grass greens run 12 or higher. But very few fairways around the country run within 2 or 3 feet of the green. I mean, most links courses in Scotland do not run much faster than 8 or 9 on the greens, correct?

So when you say fast, do you mean the speed of the fairways? Also, what about the fescues surrounding the fairways, are they playable or are they really OB? If they are really OB, wouldn't that make it more of a target golf course?

[Tom Huckaby]

Richard, this has all been answered many times before, in fact in this very thread.

The rough is usually pretty wispy, or at least was all 3 times I've been there.  One of those trips I played 5 rounds with the same golf ball.  I am not that good.

The greens were very very firm every single time.  The fairways ran in just like one would want them to.

Just listen to Spaulding.  It all works.

Or even better, get thyself out and play the course.  From all I read from you, all I hear about you... I feel 100% confident you would have an absolute blast there.  All of these questions are just searching for warts on the Mona Lisa.

[Richard Choi]

Tom, I am just playing the devil's advocate since the said "mole" will not post here. And I was quite happy with his ratings as he said Chambers Bay is a Doak 5 as well!

I am pretty sure I would love the experience at Sand Hills from everything I have read and learned about it. Hopefully, one of these days I will get a chance to confirm it.

[Tim Bert]

Richard - you can take all the "fasts" I stated in my response above and apply them to fairway speed, ability to use a putter from 30 yds short of the green, etc. I wasn't commenting on stimp speeds for the greens.

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