[Kenny Baer]

  Looks like an emphasis on the short game. From those pictures if you miss the green it appears to leave some fun up and down attemps. True?

  Anthony

Definately so; I got up and down from the golfers left with a chip that I literally could have breathed on and gotten it to the hole.  Excellent stuff; although I still stand by what I said regarding the greens; they are by no means easy but they are tamer than I expected inregards to the internal countour, you will see what I mean from here on in; 1-3 are wild; from then on they seemed to have gotten tamer.  I am interested to see ifr my memory is correct.

[Tom Huckaby]

Kenny - your point about the greens continues to escape me.  That is, I just don't get it.  Sure, not every one has elephant humps in it.  But every one seems to have the potential for a LOT of break... the potential to putt off the green...  the potential for very very interesting and difficult chips and puts.... some just have more TILT than contour... but does that make them ho-hum?   I just don't get the "ho-hum" comment.

You're 0 for 5 so far.  And 6-7-8-9 aren't gonna make your case either... but please do keep reading....

[Matt Bosela]

What would be the 'weakest' hole at SH, and also the best hole on the property in your opinion Matt? Why?

Interesting question Michael - maybe I'll wait until the end of the tour to try to answer this toughie.  More pics coming today!

[Kenny Baer]

Tom, are you going to say that #4 has alot of movement; it is as flat as a board; I had a putt from the front ctr of the green to back ctr and it broke 6 inches outside the left.  As is the left side of #5; #6 has some movement but #7 is very flat and #8 I can't remember the contours that well.  I am not saying that is poor but it is what it is; they all have intersting chips and pitch shots but they are what they are.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom, are you going to say that #4 has alot of movement; it is as flat as a board; I had a putt from the front ctr of the green to back ctr and it broke 6 inches outside the left.  As is the left side of #5; #6 has some movement but #7 is very flat and #8 I can't remember the contours that well.  I am not saying that is poor but it is what it is; they all have intersting chips and pitch shots but they are what they are.

Yes, they are what they are. 

#4 - any shot from the left side to the right side requires extreme touch lest one's ball roll off the green and all the way down the hill.  That's ho-hum?

#5 - look at the pic - there's an internal ridge - plus it also tilts from right to left pretty sharply - no easy shots anywhere near or on that green, except the one you got I guess.  

#6  - humps deluxe, but I guess that counts as "some movement."  

#7 - tilted pretty hard back to front and let to right - "flat" does not adequately describe it.

#8 - wait for the pic, I guess.  The fact you can't remember it is not helping your case.

Kenny, you are all wet with this... but that's cool.   If these greens are ho-hum ,I really want to know what rocks your world.

[Gene Greco]

Tom, are you going to say that #4 has alot of movement; it is as flat as a board; I had a putt from the front ctr of the green to back ctr and it broke 6 inches outside the left.  As is the left side of #5; #6 has some movement but #7 is very flat and #8 I can't remember the contours that well.  I am not saying that is poor but it is what it is; they all have intersting chips and pitch shots but they are what they are.

Can't remember the contours of #8?

"#6 has SOME movement"?

Forget your memory. (No pun).

Are you sure you played the golf course?  

Go to Ran's profile of Sand Hills and look at the picture of the handsome fellow putting at dusk on the sixth green which is the next hole due up in Matt's picture show. See how his head is at the same level of the mogul further up the green? There is twenty feet of green beyond that mogul. AND you could ski down that green. What more are you looking for short of putting on a mine field???

When you were on #4 or #7 did you try putting in the other direction ? Probably not or you would have felt your sphincter tighten.

A nice balance of subtle and not so subtle green contours, tiliting and angulations are what makes great greens.

18 HOLES OF SILLY CHAOTIC MICRO MOUNDING DOES NOT EQUAL GREAT GOLF ARCHITECTURE!!!

Just look at the unquestionably great Shinnecock Hills Golf Club for elegant greens with long smooth contouring and some "flat" areas to create some balance and flow.

The course possesses only some of what you and some other misguided individuals on here have been led to believe about great greens and many think Shinnecock is the flat out greatest course in the world.

Even the incomparable National Golf Links of America, Bill Coore's #1 course in the world, has a few of what you would term "flat" greens....2,5,7,8,9,14,17.

One needs variety of all kinds in designing a set of greens not  a continual dose of looking for the clown's mouth to create "interest".


  

[Tom Huckaby]

The cavalry has arrived.

 

Many thanks for the rescue, my friend.

[PThomas]

The cavalry has arrived.

very good Huck!

[RJ_Daley]

...I still stand by what I said regarding the greens; they are by no means easy but they are tamer than I expected inregards to the internal countour, you will see what I mean from here on in; 1-3 are wild; from then on they seemed to have gotten tamer.  I am interested to see ifr my memory is correct.

I was catching up on this thread and came across this line.  I knew Huck would be all over it! 

Then I wondered if Kenny may have played the course doing a drink a hole or something with his perception being that it got tamer as he went along.  This may explain the "seemed" to have gotten tamer VS had gotten tamer.

[Tom Huckaby]

I tried to stay out of it... really I did.  It's kinda boring when all I ever talk about is Sand Hills.

So now that the real expert has arrived, well... my work is done.

 

[Jason Topp]

Incidentally - I love that tee shot on 5 from the back tee even though I seemed to always find that fairway bunker.  Teeing off over the prior green in that fashion seems to present little traffic difficulty because the group behind should not be to the green while the group teeing off is still there.  I'm siure liability and potential traffic problems prevent widespread use but it is a fun way to create different sets of tees with distance flexibility while limiting the green to tee walk for all. 

[Matt Bosela]

6th Hole - 198 Yards Par 3

The 6th is another very strong par 3 with plenty of defenses.  Off the tee, you have to carry over some native area and navigate both a large and intimidating bunker complex short left along with a smaller but equally devilish bunker protecting the front right portion of the green.

There is a lot more room than you think beyond that left bunker and shots that clear it will be kicked forward and right toward the putting surface.  If the pin is right and you hit short of the little bunker, you will have a ticklish little pitch up the hill and it will be near impossible to stop the ball near the flag, especially if it's cut in front.

There is a tremendous amount of slope on this green and putts from the left side to a right pin will be well uphill.  There are a couple ridges on this very large green and everything essentially falls from back right to front left, with some slight exceptions in certain areas.  I found this to be one of the more difficult putting surfaces to read on the golf course.

Tee Shot


Harris Nepon takes a nice cut on his tee shot


Coolest Divot Mix cans on the planet, with Sand Hills logo branded in...we wanted to buy a couple of these as souvenirs!



Behind Green looking back toward Tee

[Jason Topp]

What do people think of number 6?  I think it made the least impression on me of any holes on the course.  I simply can't remember much good or bad about the hole other than the mound making it a bit awkward off the tee.

[Keith OHalloran]

Jason, I think you may have just summoned the cavalry again! While the seventh is my favorite hole on the course, I know someone who feels that way about the 6th. You have some semi blind pin placements, you have a tremendous amount of movement on the greens, and hitting the greens does not ensure a par. It may well be the most underestimated hole on the course.

[Jason Hines]

Jason,

I remember pushing a 5 iron a smidge to the middle back portion of the green and watched it roll to the left out of sight.  If I remember correctly, you could barely see the pin sitting front left from the tee.

Walked down the hill and my ball was 5 feet from the pin.

What I remember the most was trying to hit the same shot later on in the day, only to of course pull the tee ball into the weeds wide left.

[Matt Bosela]

7th Hole - 283 Yards Par 4

Sand Hills proves that you can not only have two great short par fours on one course but also that you can have two world-class short par fours in a row.

The 7th is likely on a short list of the greatest drivable par fours in the world.  Only 283 from the back tees and 231 from the 'Circle' tees, it's likely reachable for the majority of players under the right conditions.  But is taking driver here the smart play?

The hole features a very inviting fairway, with some fairway bunkers right off the tee that are pretty deep.  But the real hazard here is the terrifyingly deep bunker complex in the front left.  Hitting out of here onto the green is akin to hitting a ball onto the hood of a Cadillac and trying to make it stop.  The green is elevated from fairway grade, is very small and it's pitched severely from left to right.  There is also a false front to navigate and balls that fall off the green to the right will fall about 15-20 feet down the slope onto a lower chipping area.

The green looks so close from the tee and really tantalizes the player into giving it a go but I found that the smart play was to get it out short and right of the green, allowing for either a full wedge or a pitch into the green at an angle where the green slopes against the shot.  Therefore, downwind, I'd hit a long iron or hybrid club while feeling comfortable hitting driver when the wind was in our face.

I also found that you could use the slope on the green to your advantage on the second shot if you were far enough to the right - you could play your pitch slightly long through the green into the fringe and the ball would come back off the slope toward the middle of the green.

If you do want to try to drive the green, you will have to flirt with that left greenside bunker or you have absolutely no shot of holding the green.

Putting is no bargain here - even though there aren't major contours, the pitch of the green means any putts played from the back left will be almost unbearably fast.

A world-class hole in every respect and easily one of my favourites on the golf course.

Tee Shot


Approach Shot from 90 Yards



Approach Shot from Right Fairway Bunker


Looking back at Left Greenside Bunker


Closeup from Behind Green Looking Back to Tee


Long View from Behind Green Looking Back to Tee

[Gene Greco]

What do people think of number 6?  I think it made the least impression on me of any holes on the course.  I simply can't remember much good or bad about the hole other than the mound making it a bit awkward off the tee.

My favorite hole on the course.

The multitude of combinations of pin placements, wind directions, wind speeds, angles and distances along with a green "which has SOME movement" makes this one of the premier par 3s in this world.

Largest or second largest teeing ground on the entire course along with 17 both for the same reason: to create many different looks and approaches to the pin.

The variety is seemingly endless on this hole.

For example, when the pin is cut in the back beyond the hump and one is playing into the wind from the left side of the tee box it is almost a do or die tee shot...either hit it hard enough to get it over the hump or roll back 30 feet and leave yourself with one of the hardest putts anyplace. When the tee is moved to the right it exposes more of an opening to work your tee shot towards the flag with the hump away from your direct line. Of course, that nasty little bunker ("little" being a relative term when speaking of hazards at Sand Hills) now comes more into play. The more highly skilled golfer may elect to take one more club and hit a slight draw from the left tee and aim slightly away from the hump and bring his ball around utilizing the back right slope to allow the ball to feed down back towards the pin. But one brings that really big back right bunker into play by doing this but the player may then utilize the OTHER side of the hump as a backstop when playing his bunker shot.

And THAT is just one pin with one wind direction.

We haven't spoken of cross winds.

Or helping winds... on a hole set in the center of the golf course which transitions from higher elevation to the lowest part and is thus exposed to every little gust that blows through the place.

Nor the available pins and the consequences of leaving your ball on the wrong part of the green with some of them. Sorry, that's a four putt.

Welcome to the midwest's version of Augusta National during Master's Week.  

Heck, up until last year there was a blind pin in the lower left part of the green with the tees set toward the left but Ben and/or Bill came in and clipped a bit off the top of that huge blowout to expose the top 1/3 of the flag. Easiest pin on the hole. Very Dell like. Very fun and the inspiration for my favorite at Friar's, the great #10.

In "The Confidential Guide" Doak has his "31 Flavors". Pine Valley is listed among those courses as is Sand Hills. Tom denotes special holes at Pine Valley and at all those courses with exclamation points (!). Pine Valley has three holes with a double exclamation point (!!).

Sand Hills has two.

#6 is one of those holes.













 

[Tim Bert]

In "The Confidential Guide" Doak has his "31 Flavors". Pine Valley is listed among those courses as is Sand Hills. Tom denotes special holes at Pine Valley and at all those courses with exclamation points (!). Pine Valley has three holes with a double exclamation point (!!).

Sand Hills has two.

#6 is one of those holes.

Gene - My guess is that #6 is one of those holes where one needs to experience a good bit of the variety that you mention to fully appreciate the hole.  From a brief, two day visit, I too felt that #6 was one of the least "memorable" on the course - relatively speaking of course as I pretty clearly recalled all 18.  Some of the holes, like #14 for me and #1 or #17 for many countless others, are probably a little easier to appreciate quickly without the vast amount of experience that you've had at the course. 

Just cracked open my copy to see what the other !! was.  If we had played the game of guess Doak's !! at Sand Hills I may have exhausted nearly every hole on the course before I went for either of those two.  Very interesting. 

[Gene Greco]

Tim:

    Good point. Multiple plays are a distinct advantage for us amateurs to use when assessing a golf course.

However, for the keen eye, such as Ran's, Ben C's or Tom Ds it just takes one go 'round.

And in some cases, none.

Remember, Sand Hills hadn't even been completely built yet when Tom included it in his book.

It was nice meeting you at Sand Hills some years back.

You'll have to return so you can see the greatness of #6 for yourself and I would be happy to show you the finer points personally.

                             Gene

[Tim Bert]

Gene - Interesting point you make about the course not being completely built when Tom included it.  Would be interesting to know if he'd still mark those two as his !! if he were to write the review today.

I still recall feeling a bit unsure and rude when I interrupted your dinner that evening.  As a GCA newbie at the time I thought it was really cool to see a familiar name on the table.  I may have my timeline wrong, but I believe you were the 2nd person from this web site that I ever met.  Mike Hendren was the first.

[Harris Nepon]

I thought #7 was one of the best holes on the course. I truly enjoy the driveable par 4's on any course, but this one truly is the best I've ever seen.

I didn't take the same approach as Matt on the trip, I tried to drive it all 6 times I played it. I think i got on the green once, and was in the large bunker left twice. That bunker is nasty. One trip in there cost me 3 strokes trying to get out.

I don't have the best description of the hole, but I can recognize and respect just how amazing this short par 4 is.

[Tony Weiler]

35 days until I get to weigh in!     Needless to say, threads like this really help one get even MORE excited for a trip to Sand Hills (if that's possible).  Thanks, and looking forward to the next 11 holes!

Matt, how about a high draw into No. 7?  You said you have to challenge the bunker on left to hold green, but it looks like a nice high draw would work.  If not, why?

[Jason Topp]

What do people think of number 6?  I think it made the least impression on me of any holes on the course.  I simply can't remember much good or bad about the hole other than the mound making it a bit awkward off the tee.

My favorite hole on the course.

The multitude of combinations of pin placements, wind directions, wind speeds, angles and distances along with a green "which has SOME movement" makes this one of the premier par 3s in this world.

. . . .

In "The Confidential Guide" Doak has his "31 Flavors". Pine Valley is listed among those courses as is Sand Hills. Tom denotes special holes at Pine Valley and at all those courses with exclamation points (!). Pine Valley has three holes with a double exclamation point (!!).

Sand Hills has two.

#6 is one of those holes.

Thanks for the explanation Gene.  Sand Hills is my favorite course I have played. 

Some day I will visit again and pay particular attention to this hole.  It reminds me a bit visually of 16 at Barnbougle. 

[Matt Bosela]

35 days until I get to weigh in!     Needless to say, threads like this really help one get even MORE excited for a trip to Sand Hills (if that's possible).  Thanks, and looking forward to the next 11 holes!

Matt, how about a high draw into No. 7?  You said you have to challenge the bunker on left to hold green, but it looks like a nice high draw would work.  If not, why?

A high draw can work if you can fly it all the way to the green but due to the elevated nature of the green on the right side, rolling or bouncing a shot in from that side is not an overly realistic option.  It would have to be *very* high to hold the green as well.  And drawing it too much can yield disastrous results.

[Richard Choi]

OK, I was going to start a new thread about this, but I will just do it on this one.

Recently, I was talking to someone (who will remain anonymous) who declared emphatically that Sand Hills is a Doak 5!!!

His main reason for such a low ratings were following:

-The course is too soft with too severe false fronts to allow a ground game
-It looks like a links course, but it is just a facade.
-Raised tee, drive to a lower fairway, hit approach to a raised green. Rinse and repeat.
-It is over-rated because it was the first to start the modern renaissance, but it has been surpassed by many since.

I have personally never played the course so I have no opinion in this subject (although I was highly skeptical), but I would love to hear from others who know better about whether or not this is a fair critcism of the course.

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