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Bill_McBride

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Re: A Green TOC for the Open ?
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2010, 03:57:05 PM »
Brian, thanks for the report.  The image of sprinklers running on the Old Course is etched in my brain.   :o :-X

Is there any chance the longer hitters will drive straight over the hotel on #17 and straighten out that "pronounced dogleg?"
Over the hotel may be the safest shot for the modern tour player, if they use the new tee.   Weather will be the only defence forthe OC next week.

Gary

Hasn't it always been ?

Niall

Niall, looking at Google Maps, I was thinking more of directly over the hotel proper than over the faux "sheds!"   :o

Over the sheds from back there seems destined for the rough.

Brian Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Green TOC for the Open ?
« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2010, 10:23:19 PM »
My trusty new yardage book for TOC, tells me from the old medal tee, it is a 217 yard carry at the most sensible point over the OB, and 251 at the farthest right side.  Adding another 40 yards to the hole (given my study of the angles, it is probably a couple shorter than this, but 40 is close enough for analysis), that would mean 257 and 291.  What this tells me is: 1) yes, forget the sheds, people are going to just going to attempt to fly the entire hotel in an attempt to split the 257/291 carry area, and 2) given the angle the OB is now more a significant carry hazard vs. a right side hazard as with the 455 tee, so I would not be surprised to see some over-sliced drives (especially into a prevailing wind) winding up OB right.  Forgive my historical ignorance on this item, but how common of an occurrence has it been in the past for golfers to go OB right off the tee... 2%? 5%? 10%?  No specific instances come to my mind where key players in contention have done this when it mattered.

I'm going to attempt to insert a few images from my recent trip to St Andrews.  These were all taken on June 26th and 27th.


Just left of the new 495 tee box, similar angle to the old 455 tee box.  The 16th green is on the left side of the image.


View of the new tee box and grandstand, taken from the road.  This highlights the change in angle in place in addition to the added 40 yards.


2nd shot approach from just over the road.  While narrow, it's not as extreme as I think it has been in the past.  The left side rough was thick, but not to an extreme level IMO.

I have a good video clip of the new tee box, but can't seem to get it to embed in a message. (If anyone has a good tip for this, let me know)

Brian Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Green TOC for the Open ?
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2010, 10:43:39 PM »
More images from #1/#18.  I'll let the viewer decide if this is too green or just right, but will add encouragement that the turf was still plenty firm under foot (although not as much as other Scottish courses this summer):


First tee.  The box itself looked exceptionally pristine - Augusta level


Clubhouse and #1 tee


Valley of Sin and 18 green


Swilcan Bridge and 18 fairway

Greg Chambers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Green TOC for the Open ?
« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2010, 11:58:04 PM »
Looks great.  But I do have to say that if it looks Augusta green on the teevee, it'll set me back a few years progress with the members.
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Green TOC for the Open ?
« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2010, 09:58:51 AM »
I know our folks were hoping for a sepia TOC for the same reason Greg mentions.

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Green TOC for the Open ?
« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2010, 06:53:13 PM »
I havent read everything above, but who cares is the course is green, as long as it plays firm? Did anyone not watch the Womens Open this passed weekend? Oakmont was green and healthy, but yet as firm as any course you could want. So many people need to get it out of their head that green automatically means slow and wet.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Green TOC for the Open ?
« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2010, 07:09:43 PM »
I havent read everything above, but who cares is the course is green, as long as it plays firm? Did anyone not watch the Womens Open this passed weekend? Oakmont was green and healthy, but yet as firm as any course you could want. So many people need to get it out of their head that green automatically means slow and wet.

Another example of green and firm is the Bandon courses--they get a lot of precipitation in Oregon yet the courses stay firm and fast. 

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Green TOC for the Open ?
« Reply #32 on: July 12, 2010, 07:15:10 PM »
Anthony - I attended a couple practice rounds at Augusta in 2005 before it rained.  The fairways were as firm as any links I've ever set foot on.  I was amazed that that green could be so fast.

The reason we wanted a sepia TOC was our mini-drought here in the mid-Atlantic region.  I liked it, but you know how some of our friends can be, wanting wall-to-wall green....  It's a moot issue now - our course got over 2.5" of rain on Saturday.

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Green TOC for the Open ?
« Reply #33 on: July 13, 2010, 02:30:21 AM »
"Oakmont" , "Bandon" , "Augusta" ..... all non-links courses in the USA !

Maybe you will get it, if you hear it from one of your own ?

From Mr Shackelfords website :

The Old Course looks as splendid as you might imagine, though I was shocked by how lush it is and in the areas I walked, its not particularly firm (especially compared to the courses I saw last week).

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Green TOC for the Open ?
« Reply #34 on: July 13, 2010, 03:37:18 AM »
Perhaps folks don't like courses which brown out - thats fair enough.  However, there is a significant difference to green and firm and mottled or biscuit brown firm.  Green courses hold more moisture than brown courses and we all know moisture causes friction and slows the game the down.  To me, if the courses around TOC are brown, so should TOC be.  The R&A should be looking to present the course as best it can while still retaining the weather effects of the course as the main inflluence on maintenance.  This is how courses can play ever so differently if and when the weather changes during a tournament and that can only be a good thing.  IMO, during my lifetime this has been the essential difference in maintenance philosophies between the States and GB&I.  In GB&I weather dictates procedure while in the States an imaginary idea of perfect dictates procedure - a huge philosophical difference. 

Put me down as one shocked and disappointed by TOC's lushness.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Green TOC for the Open ?
« Reply #35 on: July 13, 2010, 03:46:08 AM »
Put me down as another, if only for what Dan and Greg said above.

If The Old Course at St. Andrews looks lush, "perfectly" maintained and with distinct fairway lines and two cuts of rough, then those that are trying to spread the word throughout other countries (i.e. The US) will have a much harder job...

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Green TOC for the Open ?
« Reply #36 on: July 13, 2010, 04:05:33 AM »
I gather that there is some disquiet within the R&A (at a reasonably senior level) as to the green-ness of the course.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Green TOC for the Open ?
« Reply #37 on: July 13, 2010, 05:53:30 AM »
"Oakmont" , "Bandon" , "Augusta" ..... all non-links courses in the USA !

Maybe you will get it, if you hear it from one of your own ?

From Mr Shackelfords website :

The Old Course looks as splendid as you might imagine, though I was shocked by how lush it is and in the areas I walked, its not particularly firm (especially compared to the courses I saw last week).

Brian,
  No offense to Geoff, but when is a Golf writer/Architect "one of my own?" He's as much of Superintendent as I am a writer. And if you need an example of a links course in America, look no further than Shinnecock. Green and always as firm are you can imagine.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 05:56:04 AM by Anthony_Nysse »
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Green TOC for the Open ?
« Reply #38 on: July 13, 2010, 06:01:16 AM »
"Oakmont" , "Bandon" , "Augusta" ..... all non-links courses in the USA !

Maybe you will get it, if you hear it from one of your own ?

From Mr Shackelfords website :

The Old Course looks as splendid as you might imagine, though I was shocked by how lush it is and in the areas I walked, its not particularly firm (especially compared to the courses I saw last week).

Brian,
  No offense to Geoff, but when is a Golf writer/Architect "one of my own?" He's as much of Superintendent as I am a writer.
Anthony,

I think Brian meant that Geoff is an American, like you.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Green TOC for the Open ?
« Reply #39 on: July 13, 2010, 06:15:29 AM »
A little more up to date evidence, m'Lud...

















The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Green TOC for the Open ?
« Reply #40 on: July 13, 2010, 06:58:25 AM »
And the forecast is for a damp Open, so it won't get a chance to dry and firm up during the week.  Very disappointing.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Green TOC for the Open ?
« Reply #41 on: July 13, 2010, 07:02:18 AM »
 8)  Will they shoot 20 under?
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Green TOC for the Open ?
« Reply #42 on: July 13, 2010, 07:08:23 AM »
Probably not because the weather that brings the rain will also bring wind, according to the forecast.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Green TOC for the Open ?
« Reply #43 on: July 13, 2010, 11:23:24 AM »
"Oakmont" , "Bandon" , "Augusta" ..... all non-links courses in the USA !

Brian,

The land at Bandon doesn't meet the technical definition of a links, but the courses there play like links.

You would know better than me whether the present color at St. Andrews is artificial given the weather--I was just agreeing with Anthony on the general point that green does not always mean slow. 

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Green TOC for the Open ?
« Reply #44 on: July 13, 2010, 02:09:00 PM »
Tim

I agree, I doubt anyone is going to be given a lift and drop to clean mud off their ball nor are they going to be screwing the ball back 15 feet with their approach shots. Links do green up to some degree fairly quickly when they get a bit of water so I can't imagine that even if the sprinklers hadn't been working over the last 6 weeks that the course wouldn't have ben green to some extent given the weather over the last few days. But then I'm not a greenkeeper so what do I know.

Niall

Jeff Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Green TOC for the Open ?
« Reply #45 on: July 13, 2010, 03:18:44 PM »
Memories of Green.

From May of 2010. It was pretty green but it had been a cool spring, until we got their of course.









Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Green TOC for the Open ?
« Reply #46 on: July 13, 2010, 03:45:32 PM »
At the end of June the greenkeeper wanted rain since then he's had too much! I guess the course will still play reasonably quickly especially if there is a decent breeze.
Cave Nil Vino

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Green TOC for the Open ?
« Reply #47 on: July 13, 2010, 03:56:50 PM »
Marty,

That to me looks pretty much spot on for this time of year.  Looking very good if you ask me...
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Green TOC for the Open ?
« Reply #48 on: July 13, 2010, 04:23:22 PM »
But to go back to the original point, TOC is a lot greener than other links courses in the same area.

And Mark, I can assure you we have had one of the driest summers for years .

John Shimony

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Green TOC for the Open ?
« Reply #49 on: July 13, 2010, 04:43:20 PM »
Tiger at Royal Liverpool, 2006.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 04:46:08 PM by John Shimony »
John Shimony
Philadelphia, PA

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