[Richard Choi]

Nice way to open a new course, getting Jack, Arnie, Tom, and Miller to play skins...

http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/news/story?id=5451571

[Adam Clayman]

Not all of Tom's influences.

Nice berm!

[Ted Cahill]

I find these pictures kind of depressing.  They remind me of Newport Dunes in TX.  Courses with potential (particularly the sand dunes) that hit a false note with the water hazzards and the eyesore wooden pier cart bridges.  I used to think courses like this were special.  Then I went to Bandon Dunes.  I've turned into a total snob (which I somewhat regret, but Bandon has that effect on you).  Outside of Florida and other parts of the southeast, what is the point of all these water hazzards? 

[Andy Troeger]

Ted,
From what I understand of the property, a fair amount of it was wetlands/marsh. Only a relatively small fraction was in the dunes. So I think the water hazards were probably necessary, at least to a point. Perhaps others know more.

All,
I was in the area this week but didn't make it up to Harbor Shores. It did come up in conversation a couple of times and comments were very favorable. I'll make sure to visit next year.

[Mark Smolens]

Played HS on Wed pm. Great fun imo. Grees still a bit firm, so a couple of approach shots bounced over. 6, 7 and 8 is one of the hardest three hole stretches I've seen. Especially 7. Longest 430 yard par-4 I've ever seen (and made a friggin 8 on!). Green on #10 makes #4 at Lost Dunes seem like a picnic -- tho I 3 putted today for yet another bogey on a par friggin 5. . .

[PCCraig]

Thanks for the report Mark.

Anyone see the ESPN Sportscenter "Top 10" the other day with the video of Jack N. making a 100 foot putt on what looked like the 10th green at HS?

[Mark Smolens]

Pat, according to the starter on the afternoon we played, Miller was giving Nicklaus a hard time about that green, so Jack walked down there with the putter to "show him" that it wasn't that severe. Even at 70 I guess the Golden Bear can still rise to the occasion. I ended up pin high left of that same pin (they were not moved from the previous day's scramble), and hit a pretty good shot only to end up 10'. The greens were very severe, tho I do believe that they had a lot of difficult pins for the previous day's event, but I thoroughly enjoyed the battle. . .

[Sven Nilsen]

Played Harbor Shores yesterday on a fairly blustery day.  In short, I liked the holes individually but did not like the course (due to the routing and resulting long drives between sections of the course, as well as the ominous presence of the development that will one day surround the property).  Most likely due to the land available and the environmental restrictions, the course plays as a series of three or four hole loops, without much flow between the various segments. 

A couple of followup points on matters mentioned above:

1.  Despite using 15 minute tee time increments, the pace is abysmal.  We ended up catching the group in front of us on the third hole, who in turn were waiting on the group in front of them.  Three groups backed up on a par 4 three holes into a round means there is a problem of some kind.

2.  Its a great tee ball course.  The fairways are very wide and the trouble off of the tee is evident (with the exception of the end of the fairway on the sixth).  Even in a 2 to 3 club wind I managed to hit all but one of the fairways.

3.  The green contours rival any set of greens I've seen that are considered undulating.  It was a ton of fun to imagine playing approach shots to the different sections of the greens, and to think about the ridiculous putts you might have if you missed the right quadrant (of which I had a few).

4.  The fairways and runup areas played extremely fast.  There are a couple of holes where the contours around the greens allow for creative running approaches, including the 3rd, 5th, 9th, 14th and 16th holes.

5.  The stretch from 7 to 9 (the closest property to the lake) has some dramatic elevation changes and is by far the most eye-catching section of the course.  I think the Nicklaus team did a good job of making the remaining holes captivating enough for the player not to feel like the rest of the course is overshadowed by these holes.

6.  Not sure how I feel about 7 as a golf hole.  With a stiff breeze coming in off of the lake, both the drive and approach will be severely challenging shots with little room for error.  It is possible to drive to the right of the fairway bunkers, but I would not suggest taking this approach with a headwind.  By my judge the up hill approach plays two to three clubs longer than the actual yardage.  This means you're hitting a longer iron over a cavernous bunker into a semi-blind green that is not nearly deep enough to hold anything but a high shot.  The penalty for going long is deep scruff or, if too long, playing off of the parking lot or beach on the lake (from the green one could pick out 5 or 6 balls that had carried a little too far).

[Greg Tallman]

Looks like a site where a talented shaper would have worked some magic. Too bad someone who has worked extensively with TD was not shaping the site.

[Sven Nilsen]

It looks really cool; it's really interesting how Nicklaus' style has evolved over the years.  There are a lot of features that I see from the pictures of Harbor Shores that one certainly would not find down at Pawleys Plantation, with which I am familiar.  That par 3 17th looks like an awesome little run-up shot; does the course play firm enough to allow for it?

Cheers.

--Tim

Yesterday the pin on 17 was front middle.  I tried a low running shot to the front of the green only to catch a fall away area short left.  From there it was possible to putt up onto the green and salvage par.  The 2nd and 17th seemed extremely similar, including hollows short of the green that would gather up anything but a perfectly on line running approach.

[Ken Fry]

Looks like a site where a talented shaper would have worked some magic. Too bad someone who has worked extensively with TD was not shaping the site.

Greg,

Have you been to the course yet or judging by photos?

Be careful making statements like yours if you don't know who did the shaping.

Ken

[Greg Tallman]

Looks like a site where a talented shaper would have worked some magic. Too bad someone who has worked extensively with TD was not shaping the site.

Greg,

Have you been to the course yet or judging by photos?

Be careful making statements like yours if you don't know who did the shaping.

Ken

Ken,

I know exactly who did the shaping or majority of it. Jerame spent the weekend down here shaping our new holes... just having fun. We discussed this course a fair bit.

I will be sure to include winky faced emoticon next time.

[Ken Fry]

Looks like a site where a talented shaper would have worked some magic. Too bad someone who has worked extensively with TD was not shaping the site.

Greg,

Have you been to the course yet or judging by photos?

Be careful making statements like yours if you don't know who did the shaping.

Ken

Ken,

I know exactly who did the shaping or majority of it. Jerame spent the weekend down here shaping our new holes... just having fun. We discussed this course a fair bit.

I will be sure to include winky faced emoticon next time.

Greg,

My sincerest apologies for my remark.  The joke flew way over my head.

Ken

[PCCraig]

Sven:

Thanks for the report. I'll be playing the course in about two weeks time and I'm looking forward to seeing it. Would you walk the course, or are carts the only option?

For a course that's somewhat open off the tee I'm shocked at the 15 min tee time increments. Why is the play so slow?

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven:

Thanks for the report. I'll be playing the course in about two weeks time and I'm looking forward to seeing it. Would you walk the course, or are carts the only option?

For a course that's somewhat open off the tee I'm shocked at the 15 min tee time increments. Why is the play so slow?

Would not recommend walking.  Its probably doable, but a lot of the hole-to-hole drives are pretty long (2 to 3, 5 to 6, 6 to 7, 9 to 10, 13 to 14, 17 to 18).

My guess as to the pace of play has to do with the kind of golfer the course attracts:  (a) vacationers playing off of the wrong tees who've never heard of ready-golf and (b) people who think that b/c they're on a Nicklaus course they need to act like a tour pro (ie - the guy in front of us who was lying down on the greens Villegas-style to read his putts). 

[Terry Lavin]

The course is very new, but I'm still waiting for a knowledgeable source to say that it's worth a return visit...

[PCCraig]

Sven:

Thanks for the report. I'll be playing the course in about two weeks time and I'm looking forward to seeing it. Would you walk the course, or are carts the only option?

For a course that's somewhat open off the tee I'm shocked at the 15 min tee time increments. Why is the play so slow?

Would not recommend walking.  Its probably doable, but a lot of the hole-to-hole drives are pretty long (2 to 3, 5 to 6, 6 to 7, 9 to 10, 13 to 14, 17 to 18).

My guess as to the pace of play has to do with the kind of golfer the course attracts:  (a) vacationers playing off of the wrong tees who've never heard of ready-golf and (b) people who think that b/c they're on a Nicklaus course they need to act like a tour pro (ie - the guy in front of us who was lying down on the greens Villegas-style to read his putts). 

From the pictures above I can't imagine having to lay down on the ground to see the break!

[PThomas]

Sven:

Thanks for the report. I'll be playing the course in about two weeks time and I'm looking forward to seeing it. Would you walk the course, or are carts the only option?

For a course that's somewhat open off the tee I'm shocked at the 15 min tee time increments. Why is the play so slow?

Would not recommend walking.  Its probably doable, but a lot of the hole-to-hole drives are pretty long (2 to 3, 5 to 6, 6 to 7, 9 to 10, 13 to 14, 17 to 18).

My guess as to the pace of play has to do with the kind of golfer the course attracts:  (a) vacationers playing off of the wrong tees who've never heard of ready-golf and (b) people who think that b/c they're on a Nicklaus course they need to act like a tour pro (ie - the guy in front of us who was lying down on the greens Villegas-style to read his putts). 

walking would be VERY difficult!

[Brandon Skopelja]

Greg,
 For what its worth. . I got a kick out of your joke!!

[Mark Smolens]

Pat, so long as there's someone in a cart in your group to ferry you on a couple of huge distances between tees and greens (from six to seven or nine to ten, for example), I'd say you could walk it comfortably, but as Sven notes there are a couple of long such gaps.

Terry, I would go back any time. I thought the course was challenging, quite often visually stunning, and great fun -- even if it is extremely severe and demanding on a higher handicap player who's hitting it crooked. Hey, it's not Beverly, but what is? If you don't have access to Lost Dunes, the Dunes, or Point O Woods, it is by far the very best option for public access golf in SW Michigan.

As for the pace of play, I think the scorecard in part contributes to the problem. From the back tees the yardage was (as I recall) just over 6900 yards. The high handicapper in our group decided to play with us back there since the next tees were listed at (again from my recollection) around 6200. The course was too much for him from the back, but when he moved up on the back nine there were a couple of holes he felt as if he was playing from the forward tees (he used to be a 12, but age and health issues have taken a toll). Seems to me that they could use one of those combo or members' tee listing on the card. Some from the back, some from the front.

[Sven Nilsen]

The course is very new, but I'm still waiting for a knowledgeable source to say that it's worth a return visit...

Not sure how to read your comment.  Are you saying that none of the commentators so far are knowledgeable?  Or just that none of us have suggested we'd return to play the course again.

If the former, methinks his honor doth disrespect too much.  If the latter, I'd play it again at the $95 special rate, but not at the $155 regular season rate.

[Terry Lavin]

Sven,

It's just that the ten or so people that I've spoken with weren't at all complimentary of the golf course.  That's nothing more than anecdotal evidence, but I'm still waiting for somebody I know to tell me that it's worthy of a repeat visit.  Given the competition in the area (Point O' Woods and Lost Dunes chief among them), I think Harbor Shores may suffer a bit after the bloom is off the rose.

[Rick Shefchik]

I don't see the harbor or the shore. I see a highway overpass, condos, power line towers, wooden cart bridges and a crane. Oh, and a pretty neat-looking sand dune, beyond which I'm guessing lies a body of water somewhat bigger than the hazards in the photos.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,

It's just that the ten or so people that I've spoken with weren't at all complimentary of the golf course.  That's nothing more than anecdotal evidence, but I'm still waiting for somebody I know to tell me that it's worthy of a repeat visit.  Given the competition in the area (Point O' Woods and Lost Dunes chief among them), I think Harbor Shores may suffer a bit after the bloom is off the rose.

If the plan is to take HS private, then it will certainly be overshadowed by the other high end clubs in SW Michigan.  As a public option, its an expensive round, but in my opinion there was just enough fun to make the visit worthwhile, but it does not rise to the level of a course I'd keep on a regular rota.  The 10th green alone is worth experiencing once.

Of the courses I've played in Western Michigan, my ranking would be as follows:

1(tie).  Kingsley/Greywalls
3.  Lost Dunes
4.  Arcadia Bluffs
5.  Dunes Club
6.  High Pointe
7.  Tullymore
8.  Angels Crossing
9.  Belvedere
10.  Harbor Shores
11.  Ravines

I'm curious as to what it was about HS that those 10 folks did not like.  The obvious routing/development/surrounding issues, the pace of play and certain design aspects were all distractions to me.

I would add that after hearing about the pre-existing nature of the area (wetlands, bisecting roads, industrial sites, garbage fields, etc.), its amazing that the team was able to pull together 18 holes of any kind.   Think of the Lost Dunes setting and double the restrictions and you probably get a good idea of what the site was like pre-construction.

[PCCraig]

Are they planning on taking Harbor Shores private once they build up the homes around it?

It was my understanding that it is a business, obviously, but also a way for Whirlpool to give back to the community.

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