[JC Jones]

Bob,

The problem for Sean is that he can only go on weekends. The California school system shuts all of the libraries, archives and research centers on campus on weekends because of budget problems and have done so for several years. 

P.s. - check your IM

Is Stanford a part of the public university system?

[JC Jones]

JC,

You can argue that all you want, but Maxwell would have never had the opportunity to contribute if not for Mac.  The head of the firm gets credit in all cases.  And, Mac routed most of it with Maxwell, and you can see his hands in the front nine, while the back nine for whatever reason looks like Maxwell. But, its not unusual for associates to build courses and thus have partial influence in the design, but it is presumed to be under the direction of Mac as senior partner.  BTW, the UM course has elements of the same split personality regarding the greens, IMHO>

This whole thing gets into whether if a firm and club decided long ago who should get the credit, should some internet board participants have the right to change that 90 years later based mostly on opinion, rather than the opinion of those who were there at the time?  Absent lots of documentation, how can any of us be sure who did what?

Jeff,

Firstly, I am asking questions to learn something not to re-write history so don't get all worked up.

I think, as you can see with North Shore, sometimes clubs get it wrong and are ecstatic to find out their actual history.

I agree that more documentation would be great.

[JC Jones]

JC:  I don't know how hard anyone has looked for a plan of Crystal Downs, but no one has ever claimed to have seen one, as far as I've heard.

The greens I mentioned are full of little tiers not on straight lines, and/or multiple "bowled" pin placement areas, as MacKenzie drew on many of his greens plans for other courses.  I am fairly confident in saying that he was around when these were built.  #13 by contrast ... a high tier in front and then a sharp fallaway to back left and back right hole locations ... Maxwell had built one of those at Old Town just a couple of years before Crystal Downs, I think.

To your knowledge, how long was Mackenzie there?

Interesting regarding Old Town.  When we spoke, you had mentioned that Maxwell built OT right before coming to CD.  I'd love to see a photo-comparison of those greens to discern the similarities and differences.

[Phil_the_Author]

JC,

I believe that Stanford is a private university, but I was led to believe that the archives these are stored in, too, were closed on the weekends. I could be wrong.

Does anyone know the name of their historian? Email it to me and I'll gladly get him the info as I'm sure they'd want to look into it.

[TEPaul]

Phil:

Regarding the contents of your Post #22, have you ever read the Marion Hollins biography? I thought me and a friend from The Creek were going to get our hands on all the remaining copies that were in the hands of the author's widow because she actually told us we could have them a year or more ago. But this is what procrastination does to you-----eg when Bob Crosby and I went to Cypress a few weeks ago, lo and behold the author's widow had sold all the remaining copies to Cypress Point and they are for sale in the pro shop.  

But considering Marion Hollins' considerable part in the creation of Cypress Point I guess that is where they really should be!

[JC Jones]

Phil:

Regarding the contents of your Post #22, have you ever read the Marion Hollins biography? I thought me and a friend from The Creek were going to get our hands on all the remaining copies that were in the hands of the author's widow because she actually told us we could have them a year or more ago. But this is what procrastination does to you-----eg when Bob Crosby and I went to Cypress a few weeks ago, lo and behold the author's widow had sold all the remaining copies to Cypress Point and they are for sale in the pro shop.  

But considering Marion Hollins' considerable part in the creation of Cypress Point I guess that is where they really should be!

Did you buy one?

[Dale Jackson]

..., but you know C.B; he was kind of an uber-snob in some ways and probably felt anything west of Chicago was outter space and that the coast of California was just something akin to bunch of Indians trying to breed with some Chinese immigrant fishermen people or else a bunch of no-count reprobates sifting silt in creeks looking for some quick BLING.

In my years of reading this site, that might be the funniest sentence I have ever read.

[TEPaul]

JC:

I've had it on my computer for a few years but yes I did buy one from the Cypress pro shop.

But regardless, if that heretofore elusive so-called Raynor Routing happens to be at Stanford U's library it would be one helluva find and it would be just terrific to thoroughly analyze to see how much it reflects or not the routing that was used and put into construction.

It makes a lot of sense to me that something like that may be at Stanford U as part of Morse's papers because out there in that day and age they talk about what they called the "Big Four" that included Crocker, Hopkins and Leland Stanford. Those guys were to the west sort of like what those big-time railroad tycoons and financiers were in the east.

Actually, in many ways it was Marion herself who sort of brought the two sides together since she knew so many people. Obviously that was why Morse relied on her to develop Cypress as a club since it was his land. She was some kind of remarkable woman, that Marion Hollins!

I had never been to Pasatiempo before but Bob and I went there too on our way to the Open. My God, what a beautiful place that is and what a cool golf course from what we saw of it. To me though, and particularly hanging out and having lunch in what is now known at The Hollins House (the original clubhouse) Marion's presence seemed almost palpable.

[Jim Nugent]

As for Crystal Downs, I've always considered the appropriate architectural attribution to be Mackenzie/Maxwell.

Why?  Does it matter that Mackenzie was there for 2 days and Maxwell for 2 years?

If MacKenzie routed the course, I think he gets attribution, no matter how long it took him. 

[JC Jones]

JC:  I don't know how hard anyone has looked for a plan of Crystal Downs, but no one has ever claimed to have seen one, as far as I've heard.

Tom,

Interestingly, I just read an article written by Ron Whitten for the June 2001 issue of Golf Digest.  In it he wrote:

By 1925, despite no training or college degree, Maxwell was a full-time golf course architect. He never drew plans, just walked sites and staked out features.

Perhaps this may have something to do with the lack of plans at the Downs.

[Jeff_Brauer]

JC,

I'm not worked up.

Interesting on Rons writing there. First, because in 1925, none of the gca's had relevant college training, other than Raynor and Moreau in engineering,which has some benefits.  And, second, there is a plan for the original Dornick Hills, albeit I don't know who did it.  Chris Clouser might know.  And if the CD story goes right, I think they had the topo maps out there as they sat on the clubhouse site and stuck in the 9th, but the story could be wrong.  At some point, someone had to put something on plan, maybe later.

What is also amusing to me is that in this (and other threads) is that some would tend to attribute the credit to shaping or building (Maxwell) and others towards whoever routed it (MacK and Maxwell)  IMHO, design credit goes to the head of the firm, and perhaps to the person most responsible for the final form of everything related to golf.  With associates working, as long as the head guy has final say, it probably had to go to him.  What appears to have happened at CD is that Mac was involved early, and then turned it over to Maxwell, not much different than him completely turning over his Australia stuff to locals after routing.  If that was the sign of the times, then every course done by Mac is called into question. 

Its one thing to want to know in depth what days Mac was there, what greens were mostly his, etc.  Its just easier to let credit lay where it is and uncover more details about how the gca actually worked on that project, IMHO. 

[JC Jones]

Jeff,

Most people with some "knowledge" will refer to the course as a Mackenzie/Maxwell (see Tom Paul's post).  So giving Maxwell some credit is not the problem here; nor is giving Mackenzie lead credit.

What I am attempting to do is to lay out a hypothesis and work at gathering information to prove or disprove it.  You would rather I start with the status quo and work to either affirm or disprove but what fun would that be.  For more information on what I'm thinking here, see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

The next question is, where is the information?

[Phil_the_Author]

Jeff,

You stated, because in 1925, none of the gca's had relevant college training..."

In Tilly's case, and I don't think I'm going out on a limb on this, he was a fairly accomplished and well-known architect by 1925. He also not only never went to a single college, but he flunked out of the several secondary schools (high school equivalent) that his father enrolled him in. By his mid-teens he was working in the Riubber Goods store.

Yet by 1925, he was using transom's to lay out courses, drawing very detailed blueprints and sketches of holes and advising on course design, construction and maintenance at the highest of levels.

It might be that Whitten was incorrect and simply assumed that Maxwell "never drew plans" as it seems that comes from his earlier statement that he had "no training or college degree." Lack of plans all these years later does not equate to none having been drawn. If there is one thing that is common among many golf clubs, its that they have few, if any, original drawings of their course(s) especially before 1940.

[Tom MacWood]

Jeff
What do you consider relevant college training?

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

Now of course, it would be landscape architecture, with elements of civil engineering, ecology and turf management,  Business training is always good. Back then, it would be about the same, I think. A degree in philosophy wouldn't be considered relevant, or even history, since they were making it, not rewriting it!

Phil,

It is true that there are not too many skills involved in gca that can't be learned, such as shooting grades with a level.  And certainly, we are all conversant with the use of pen, pencil and even colored markers by the age of kindergarten.  Teaching line drawing for landscape architecture isn't really too tough, although some people have more natural abilities in artistic drawing than others.  But I recall back in LA school, where we had a good graphics professor, he was able to take the least artistic students and pretty soon they were putting out good drawings. Of course, there were always a few hotshots who could outdraw everyone.

[Tom_Doak]

Ron Whitten did spend some time with Perry Maxwell's son, Press, before he passed away, and I would guess that's where he got a lot of his ideas on how the two of them worked.

Maxwell lived at Crystal Downs for two summers and it is hard to imagine he would have needed to draw up a plan of what he was building.  Dr. MacKenzie might have left a plan, but since they were there together for a while to walk through the holes, it's also possible that he didn't bother.  My associates aren't the ones who ask me to draw a plan ... my clients are the ones who want to show them off, and as I've mentioned here before, there was no finished routing plan for Ballyneal or Barnbougle, we just started building them.

Now, I rely on my associates for a lot, as MacKenzie did.  But the lack of a paper plan does not mean that they're the ones who did most of the design.

[Jim Hoak]

I'm not sure it is true, but I've hard the story that Maxwell spent the two summers at Crystal Downs because of a woman there for whom he was developing a relationship.  Could it be that there is a woman behind the motives for the golf course design?  Hard to believe.

[JC Jones]

Tom D,

I am not suggesting that the lack of a drawing means that Maxwell is the architect.  I am also not disputing Mackenzie's involvement with the routing (at least of the first 8 holes).  Mainly, I am inquiring as to exactly how much there is Mackenzie and how much is Maxwell.

Also, upon reflection, I disagree with you that #'s 1, 5, 6 and 7 (especially 7) are CLEARLY Mackenzie.  #3 looks exactly like one of the complexes at Palmetto (at least in style) so I'm with you on that one.  That being said, I'd say #14 also looks more Mackenzie to me than Maxwell.  It is the greens at #'s 12 and 13 that are confusing me.

[Tom_Doak]

JC:

On what basis do you think the greens I labeled would be someone other than MacKenzie's?

[Neil_Crafter]

A couple of thoughts.

1. The partnership Mackenzie entered into for work east of the Rockies with Perry Maxwell was called Mackenzie and Maxwell.

2. The project came to Mackenzie via Robert Hunter who was contacted by Walkley Ewing, the founder of Crystal Downs, after they had built a 9 hole layout that Ewing felt did not do the land justice. Hunter recommended Mackenzie and Ewing arranged for Mackenzie to visit in October 1928 on his way back east from California. Mackenzie came with Maxwell. While we have no precise date for this we know Mackenzie was at Pasatiempo as late as 9 October and boarded the Aquitainia in NY on October 24. I would guess Mackenzie was likely there for a bit less than a week. Our timeline has no other dates for subsequent confirmed Mackenzie visits to Crystal Downs.

Ewing's first person account in the club history book says that:
 
"Crystal Downs created in Dr Mackenzie an instant impression near perfection and his enthusiasm for its possibilities caused him to delay his  sailing a boat or two and to settle in Zach's for a few days of intensive course designing. He and Perry Maxwell worked almost around the clock until they had laid down holes and torn them up and laid them down again, emerging finally with the eighteen hole layout that we know today."

So according to Ewing, Mackenzie and Maxwell jointly routed all 18 holes. Then Ewing continues:

"Mackenzie and Maxwell went ahead, and Mackenzie, an excellent artist, painted detailed pictures for the contours of every green."

From this it is apparent that there was a full set of green plans, and most likely a routing plan as Ewing still had to get support for the junking of the existing course and the finance to effectively build a new 18, and a routing of plan would have been of great assistance with this. He goes on:

"They agreed Maxwell would return in the spring to supervise the actual construction, and I agreed to see that they would get paid $5000 for these services, an extremely moderate fee for their time and expense in view of their unmatched qualifications."

Construction started soon thereafter and the first nine was playable by the end of summer 1929. The finance to build the second nine was looking doubtful but Ewing solicited support from a syndicate and so the second nine was built. Ewing said that "the new course would have been impossible in those years except for the continuing efforts of Perry Maxwell."

Did Mackenzie ever see the course during construction or at completion? We just don't know.

From this we can fairly reasonably conclude that Mackenzie and Maxwell jointly routed the course, Mackenzie drew his customary green plans and Maxwell built it over a couple of years, in two lots of nine holes. This from the founder's own pen, who was the man responsible for getting Mackenzie to the project. Hope that helps.

[JC Jones]

Neil,
Your response is exactly why I started this thread.

Thank you.

[Neil_Crafter]

You're very welcome JC
Neil

[Jeff_Brauer]

The two year time frame might explain the Maxwell influence on the back nine.  It says all greens were drawn by Mac, but maybe he only contracted to draw the ones for the part of the course being built?  Or maybe Maxwell was just feeling his oats the second year as they began to trust him.

[JC Urbina]

Jeff,

For the record,  At Pacific Dunes the golf course was built with no greens sketches, no notes during walkabouts, no clearing plan, no grassing plan, no landscape plan, no bunker details, no artist renderings.
  A final routing was provided to the owner by Tom before construction began,  I did a budget and construction time line and reported to Kemper Sports  bi weekly on the progress of holes being built and budget expenses.  The rest was done in the field with no documentation to speak of. 

What will history write about Pacific Dunes or will anyone care?

[JC Jones]

JC:

On what basis do you think the greens I labeled would be someone other than MacKenzie's?

My point was that they didn't seem as distinguishable from the rest of the bunch as #3 did.  Obviously you have seen more MacKenzie than most, and seen Crystal Downs more than most.

Interestingly, with the quotes from Neil, maybe all 18 greens were MacKenzie. 

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