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Kyle Henderson

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A Pictorial: Mayacama!!!
« on: July 03, 2010, 02:42:35 PM »
Mediterranean style clubhouse.
 

 
1st hole, par 4, 434 yards (all yardages are from the tips) as viewed from the clubhouse.

 
At the 2nd , a par 5 of 525 yards, the tee shot is played over a ravine and a bit uphill, with the slope feeding balls from right-to-left. A lone fairway bunker guards the left side.

 
The 2nd shot is played steeply downhill. Most will lay up and wedge on with their 3rd.

 
Short and right are perilous misses. The bunkering seems a bit disjointed and disproportionate visually, by my reckoning.

 
Here is a glance back from behind the hole. The slopes are steeper than they appear.

 
The delightful 3rd is played with a mid-iron (178 yards), but demands accuracy. The walk through the woods along the right side will be a charming interlude for those fortunate enough to find the putting surface.

 
The par 5 4th tee shot, like at the 2nd, is played over a ravine to an uphill slope. The hole plays longer than 501 yards due to its uphill nature, but is still very reachable.

 
Turning right, the fairway climbs steadily to a left-to-right sloping green guarded by a stately oak tree.

 
The 5th (188 yards) is  played downhill to a green that slopes from back-to-front and right-to-left.

 
The 6th (420 yards) drops back down into the heart of the valley, with a bunker, weeds and saplings playing sentry.

 
The approach must clear the barranca and find the correct tier of greenery.

 
The 7th is a drivable par 4 at 340 yards (the green is partially visible through the left-hand gap in the trees and closer than the stated yardage on a straight line). The conservative route consists of a shot played 200 yards over the barranca towards the straightaway bunker and then a wedge onto the green.

 
The green sits a bit higher than the fairway beyond a reshaped creek.

 
Front/left pins play about a club shorter than back/right hole locations.

 
A peak back to the fairway landing zone.

 
The 8th (411 yards, uphill) bends right around the base of a small hill.

 
For the approach, the fairway slopes uphill and right-to-left, helping players shape their flight to reach back/left pin locations.

 
The 9th is a reachable par 5 for those that play the forward tees and hit a hard draw well right of the green on their approach. From 568 yards, most players will reach in three at best.

 
The 10th (397 yards) asks for a yet another strike over a ravine to a sloping fairway, this time right to left.

 
The green sits left of the landing zone, across the gully once more.

 
The 11th (205 yards) plays downhill to a green site scooped out of a small hillock beneath the clubhouse. The green slopes away and to the right from the teeing grounds, a bit like a reverse redan. Shots can be played to bounce on from the left.

 
A look from behind shows the small ridge that bisects the rear portion of the green from the front.

 
The 12th (441 yards) doglegs left through a tight corridor of oaks.


Recovery is possible from under the left side trees. The left front pin location is very difficult to approach, thanks to steep fallways at the front of the green.


After an uphill trot, one must catch their breath before driving at the far left bunker into the prevailing wind on the 13th (404 yards).


The approach is played with the ball above one’s feet to a slightly elevated green beyond a ravine.


Do not miss short on the uphill, upwind par 3 14th (159 yards)



At the15th (537 yards), long hitters can carry the left bunkers and get a huge kick left/forward to wedge range. Those who lay back on the top will probably lay up with their second.


The closer one lays up to the end of the fairway, the better their chances of a level lie. Longer approaches will be played from downhill lies.


Looking back from yet another green benched into a hillside with a ravine guarding its front. The hole is highly enjoyable, but perhaps the themes have been overused up to this point in the round.


The 16th (322 yards) asks for a shot of 200-220 yards at the reeds beyond the fairway.


Challenging this bunker will open up left-hand pin locations beyond the fronting pond.


The middle bunker is set nearly even with the center of the 17th green (196 yards). As such, it’s best to take 1 club more or less than the distance to the front pin position pictured so as to avoid the middle bunker (or a flop shot over said bunker from a tight lie), should you be a bit off target). The safe play on most days is towards the green’s back edge.


At the 18th (559 yards), tee shots ideally soar over one last barranca before reaching a fairway sloping rightwards.


Although its quite reachable with a good drive from the elevated forward tees, the green is not quite deep enough to hold most long approaches. Laying up to the left should ensure par.


Beyond the green, one must play a downhill pitch out of chunky rough. The easier leave is pin high-left.


Mayacama is a very good course on gorgeous property. The club features a sizable caddy program -- walking golf is the norm. Masters of the aerial attack will enjoy the challenges presented and swirling winds will combine with fast/firm turf to make each day a different challenge on the course. The club is also known to make honorary members of local, quality vitners. But despite its many qualities, the golf course is probably a bit overrated due to its exclusivity and pastoral setting.

« Last Edit: July 03, 2010, 02:45:47 PM by Kyle Henderson »
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Pictorial: Mayacama!!!
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2010, 08:49:39 PM »
More barranca navigations than Pasatiempo!   Beautiful country there.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: A Pictorial: Mayacama!!!
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2010, 08:52:27 PM »
Still haven't seen Mayacama.

However, the photos of the second green are the antithesis of my crew's devotion to hiding the grassing lines.

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Pictorial: Mayacama!!!
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2010, 09:15:40 PM »
Still haven't seen Mayacama.

However, the photos of the second green are the antithesis of my crew's devotion to hiding the grassing lines.

The grassing lines and bunker proportions seem out of balance in a lot of modern courses I've seen, many of which were crafted by current or former associates of Nicklaus (e.g. Cupp, Bates), Robert Trent Jones Jr., Pete Dye, Weiskopf/Morrish, etc.

Would it be fair to say that most contemporary design and/or construction firms should delve to make that kind of painstaking detail a greater priorty?

I think Mayacama is another example of a very good course on a macroscopic level that could have been great with better finish work and more subtleties in design, especially around the greens.
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Pictorial: Mayacama!!!
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2010, 09:19:27 PM »
Bette and I played there a few years ago and really enjoyed the golf course. 1st class in every respect.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: A Pictorial: Mayacama!!!
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2010, 09:37:03 PM »

The grassing lines and bunker proportions seem out of balance in a lot of modern courses I've seen, many of which were crafted by current or former associates of Nicklaus (e.g. Cupp, Bates), Robert Trent Jones Jr., Pete Dye, Weiskopf/Morrish, etc.

Would it be fair to say that most contemporary design and/or construction firms should delve to make that kind of painstaking detail a greater priorty?


I think it would be fair to say that many (or even most) architects out there don't give a crap about that kind of stuff. 

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Pictorial: Mayacama!!!
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2010, 09:41:13 PM »
Grassing lines?  Elaboration, please...I imagine it's more than mowing patterns.

Thanks in advance.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

BVince

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Pictorial: Mayacama!!!
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2010, 10:38:39 PM »
I have had the pleasure of playing Mayacama a few times and it is great.  To over criticize this course just because it is a Nicklaus design and the fact that it has a very elaborate clubhouse is simply unfair.  I thoroughly enjoyed the experience from great golf to wonderful amenities.  It is a pleasure for all who enjoy our wonderful game. 

If I were to critique any hole it would be the 16th.  It just didn't seem to fit in to the overall layout.  That being said, it is one of the top courses that I have played and I think it is a design that will be enjoyed by many levels of players.
If profanity had an influence on the flight of the ball, the game of golf would be played far better than it is. - Horace Hutchinson

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Pictorial: Mayacama!!!
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2010, 10:39:57 PM »
I found Mayacama to be one of the better Jack N designs I have ever played. I was amazed at how good it is given the tough site. Of course one cannot help but wonder when Snoopy will shoot down the Red Baren during the round. I am still puzzeled by the walk only policy as well as other aspects of how the project is and was promoted. It is feeling strains now. I feel one day this will be a wonderful place for the Members to enjoy a wonderful course in an idealic setting.

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Pictorial: Mayacama!!!
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2010, 10:48:36 PM »
I've played here a few times and posted a number of things about Mayacama.  Perhaps Jim Lipe will respond if he still reads this site?   There are a number of flaws on this course and it just baffles me how it could be a top 100 course when Pasatiempo and others fall out.  The bunkering is completely uninspired.  The par 3 11th and 17th are meerly after thoughts, place a tee and build a green.  The 18th with the fairway going around the lake has been tried a million times.  To me the 2nd and 15th as par 5's are very similar, hit a heroic shot or a third shot over a large dip or ravine.

Sure its a nice place and they get brownie points for walking only with caddies. 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: A Pictorial: Mayacama!!!
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2010, 10:52:00 PM »
Ronald:

We try to make it so that the transitions from mowed, irrigated turf to native are seamless and they don't attract attention.

Look at the photos of the second green.  The line between the native grass and the green grass is a straight line across the horizon behind the green -- normally I would guess that's where a cart path is, but the course is walking only, so it's harder to understand.  Anyway, it's hard to pull off "looking like the course has been there 100 years" when you've got that kind of stuff going on.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Pictorial: Mayacama!!!
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2010, 10:59:20 PM »
If the club is walking only, who's creating all the cart tracks?


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: A Pictorial: Mayacama!!!
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2010, 11:02:26 PM »
Bill:

They still need roads for the maintenance guys, even if they don't have carts.

But, I've always wondered about the walking-only policy at Mayacama, because from everything I've heard about it, it is a very difficult walk ... as if it wasn't really designed for walking and they decided on the policy at the 11th hour.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Pictorial: Mayacama!!!
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2010, 11:48:41 PM »
Looks like countless lost balls to me.  I'd hate to miss some of those fairways/targets by 15 feet ::)
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Pictorial: Mayacama!!!
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2010, 12:34:06 AM »
played it two days ago.  much harder walk than i remembered.  i played it half a dozen times in the early 2000s.  now it seems there are lots of back tees and the walk is much harder than a few years ago.  either way, what a fantastic piece place!

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Pictorial: Mayacama!!!
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2010, 04:00:10 AM »
Bill:

They still need roads for the maintenance guys, even if they don't have carts.

But, I've always wondered about the walking-only policy at Mayacama, because from everything I've heard about it, it is a very difficult walk ... as if it wasn't really designed for walking and they decided on the policy at the 11th hour.

We had carts to drive to our respective starting holes (shot gun format), and a paved path ran throughout the course, but everyone had a caddy and walked as a requirement of the event.

My caddy made it clear that walking is the norm.

Personally, I didn't think the course was terribly difficult to walk, but there are a few climbs and steep drops, most notably betwen 12 and 16. Also, it takes a while to hike from the 9th green to the 10th tee, as one must circumnavigate the sizeable driving rnage to do so.
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Colin Macqueen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Pictorial: Mayacama!!!
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2010, 04:25:26 AM »
"We try to make it so that the transitions from mowed, irrigated turf to native are seamless and they don't attract attention."
 
Tom, I had a close look at the photos of green #2 and can see what you mean.  It looks as though GCA members are slowly but surely winkling out, from you, the architectural niceties that that you espouse!

Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

Andy Troeger

Re: A Pictorial: Mayacama!!!
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2010, 09:26:44 AM »
Has anyone played both Mayacama and Sherwood? Is one better than the other?

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Pictorial: Mayacama!!!
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2010, 11:15:14 AM »
Has anyone played both Mayacama and Sherwood? Is one better than the other?

I played Sherwood with a few dozen GCAers in 2009 at the King's Putter. There are many similarities between the courses (green complexes, tiered green surfaces, bunkering depth and shape, large oaks and creeks in play), but Mayacama is the better course IMHO.

Both make for many  nice days in the California sun for those that can afford the initiation fees.
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Peter Ferlicca

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Pictorial: Mayacama!!!
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2010, 01:21:57 PM »
I have yet to play Mayacama, but it looks very similar to The Preserve.  For people who have played both, would love to hear your thoughts about comparing them.  They both seem to sit at the bottom of the Top 100, and are both viewed as overrrated on this website.  Some of those pictures look identical to the Preserve.  IMO, the Preserve is also on a gorgeous piece of propery, but with many holes lacking interest.

Tom Huckaby

Re: A Pictorial: Mayacama!!!
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2010, 12:40:48 PM »
I've played Mayacama and Preserve.
Good call as they are quite similar, for just the reasons you state.

Mayacama is tougher - particularly on the bogey player.  In fact until the opening of the hideous THE RANCH in San Jose, Mayacama had the "honor" of having the highest slope rating in the entire NCGA - which as you all know of course, just means it's proportionally harder on the bogey than it is for the scratch compared to other courses.

So also very good call above - you don't want to miss your targets at Mayacama.

For me though, well... I played it twice and loved it both times.  Yeah, it's tough.  But the pastoral setting and just hole after hole of challenging, fun shots to be played... well... I really enjoyed it.  I can't go deeper than that as it's been too long.  In any case, I  believe I found a bit more repetitiveness at Preserve... that is, I recall coming off that thinking I had played the same shot too many times (approach to raised green).. at Mayacama I didn't feel any repetitiveness.

Oh well.  To me they are both great courses.  Top 100?  Seems a stretch. I don't think either is clearly better than Pasatiempo, for example.  But they are in the same league... if someone wants to say they are a little better than that course, well they aren't completely of their rockers.

kurt bowman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Pictorial: Mayacama!!!
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2010, 01:46:51 PM »
Tom,

The grass line behind #2 green is probably a fair criticism. There is a carpath behind the green, and I considered taking the grass line above the cartpath to avoid the line that you noticed. I can't remember why I didn't as it has been 10 years now. Mayacama from it's beginning has always been a walking club. I wondered when I was there building the golf course how that may be received as it is a tough walk, but they have stuck to their original philosophy. The last I heard is that you needed a doctor's note to take a cart.

Bryon,

I agree with your take of #16. We were hamstrung by environmental restrictions there and forced to manufacture man-made wetlands. JN descided to put a lake past the landing area. I personally would have liked if he had made the hole driveable, but he forced the lay-up with an iron typically.

Joel,

I can't say I agree with your thought's on the bunkers being uninspired as I think they fit well with the site and the scale works. I think they lend to not taking the spotlight away from the property. I would agree that they are understated, and not the rustic edge that is currently en vogue, but not uninspired.

Kurt Bowman

JSPayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Pictorial: Mayacama!!!
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2010, 01:51:51 PM »
Wow.....is my reaction after reading the comments, because here were my two initial thoughts having viewed the photos:

1)  Cool.....looks difficult, and fun.....definetely appears fast and firm.

2) Holy cart traffic!

Seriously? There's no carts at all here? Either they have a Pebble-Beach-during-the-Open army-size maintenance crew or something is amiss. I know maintenance equipment tracks will show up more if the course is a bit dried out, but the cart traffic in the rough below the beginning bottom left part of the fairway is more than maintenance vehicles for sure. That section is just BEGGING for directional traffic signs.....

If this is a no-cart facility, I'd hate to see what might happen if they ever allowed them.......
"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Pictorial: Mayacama!!!
« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2010, 03:26:04 PM »
Ronald:

We try to make it so that the transitions from mowed, irrigated turf to native are seamless and they don't attract attention.

Look at the photos of the second green.  The line between the native grass and the green grass is a straight line across the horizon behind the green -- normally I would guess that's where a cart path is, but the course is walking only, so it's harder to understand.  Anyway, it's hard to pull off "looking like the course has been there 100 years" when you've got that kind of stuff going on.

Tom, do you have a picture of a hole that illustrates the way you prefer a hole to look?  Would be curious to see, because while I understand your point I have a hard time envisioning what your preference would look like.  I get that the straight line does not look natural, but what would a more natural transition look like?  Seems tough to do given the green irrigated grass vs. the burned out native grass of the California summer.  It can't be just making the line more jagged and not straight, because you'd still have the juxtaposition of the green vs. brown.

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Pictorial: Mayacama!!!
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2010, 11:31:52 PM »

Joel,

I can't say I agree with your thought's on the bunkers being uninspired as I think they fit well with the site and the scale works. I think they lend to not taking the spotlight away from the property. I would agree that they are understated, and not the rustic edge that is currently en vogue, but not uninspired.

Kurt Bowman

Kurt:
Thanks for your response.  I know you worked really hard on this course so appreciate your thoughts and insight.
I think uninspired is a correct term for the bunkers.  Really they are forgettable.  I'm not suggesting they place ragged edge or lacy bunkers, but just ovals and circles seem quite boring?  The round or oval bunkers with tongues seem very repetitive. Just from the above photos I see an oval bunker with a tongue on #2, #6, #7 fairway, the 10th, 11th, 12th, 14th, 16th fairway and the 17th.  I agree you don't want to take away the spotlight from the property but enhance it.

Are you still with the Nicklaus organization?  I'll assume if you are you are probably working outside the US.