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Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Tom Fazio & Donald Bren’s Shady Canyon Golf Cl
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2002, 01:39:23 PM »
There are some great opinions, questions and answers here.

For one, the bunkering isn't perfect, it looks like normal Fazio style bunkering, and that isn't a bad thing. However, I can think of a certain bunker style that could certainly surpass it and make it more in tuen with the natural surroundings of the canyon. It may not be everyones favortie style, at least not yet! :) (Give me some time and I'll change all of you naysayers!)

Cardyin2, You certainly make a pretty descript synopsis of the course, but what is lacking is your truthful opinion. I want to hear it. How would you rate this course if or how you are going to rate it for one of the magazine rating panels? What do you think of the construction of the course, the types of things that figured into the design itself. (Point in example: How they had to take and plateau an entire hill to get the 8th hole, or directly looking back from that hole and seeing how at the 7th, they utilized many of the natural rocks from the site and created foundations for golf holes.)

How does the containment figure into your ideas of play? For me, it ruined a lot of good holes, and ultimately may have done the course more harm to it's playability and challenge.

Do you think it is a stretch for me to compare the stretch of holes on the back nine as similar architecture to Pelican Hill?

And finally.....Do you think the amount of earth moved to create this course helped it or wrecked it?

These are all just questions without trying to get anyone to agree with me. I just want to hear some more insight on what others think so that I can relate to it for forming my own opinion. (I think one can do this)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio & Donald Bren’s Shady Canyon Golf Cl
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2002, 02:08:25 PM »
Well, here's a quibble, and I don't know whether it's with the course or the ownership:

I don't see much shade at Shady Canyon.

It must have been named before 8 a.m.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio & Donald Bren’s Shady Canyon Golf Cl
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2002, 05:22:54 PM »
Mike Cirba:

Interesting comments about the sizing of the bunkers.

Do you have any thoughts on how this problem might be overcome?

Do the vistas make this a real challenge?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Tom Fazio & Donald Bren’s Shady Canyon Golf Cl
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2002, 05:42:38 PM »
Tom MacWood,

The bunkers in several of the pictures look terrific, not unlike bunkers that some on the site worship, yet negative comments flowed like lava.  My point was that without identification I would suspect that the comments would have been more on the POSITIVE rather than the NEGATIVE side.

I like the look of the bunkers, but indicated that since I hadn't played the course, I'd have to reserve judgement.

I keep forgetting that you feel there has never been any bias on the site, pro or con certain architects.

Most people in denial eventually snap out of it.

Would it bother you, or change your mind to know that others on this site have admitted to me that they were biased and posted as such, or are you still in denial of the facts.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Tom Fazio & Donald Bren’s Shady Canyon Golf Cl
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2002, 07:05:00 PM »
Patrick;

Do you think my comments about the bunkers are "biased"?
Before you answer, think about why I could call a course like World Woods Pine Barrens "excellent" and Osprey Ridge "underrated".  Do you have any comments in answer to my specific bunker criticisms?  I think they are fair, unbiased, and valid points I raised, but feel free to disagree.  :)

Tim;

I see a couple of problems, and the term "sizing" might need to be reconsidered.  You refer to the "vistas", but in looking at them again, I think it might be due to the width.  

As it is, the fairways are very wide, which is something I earlier applauded.  Yet, even with fairways of this width, the bunker placement is generally to the edges of the fairways.  They simply get "lost", and don't seem to get in your head as a serious threat or something to seriously consider.  Instead, they look like the "frame" only.

I think something that perhaps starts at the edge of the fairway, but then diagonally extends further into the fairway (ironically, like Patrick's overhead of the 5th at Newport) would have worked better and probably would have effectively dealt with the "sizing" issue, as well.  

Beyond that, they appear to be shallow and non-threatening...the fairway bunkers in particular look to be almost an afterthought, with no real consideration of how they might drive or affect play.  

The greenside bunkers look to be placed well away from the greens themselves in many cases.  You have large, sprawling bunkers that seem to be once again designed for visual appeal, and smaller blobs that seem to only provide visual balance and further framing.  Neither seem "sized" appropriately for the size target they are defending, nor particularly daunting.  Perhaps if they more closely defended the targets, or had a more threatening appearance (i.e. deeper), some of this benign look might have been negated.

As it is, they neither excite the eye nor speed the pulse.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio & Donald Bren’s Shady Canyon Golf Cl
« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2002, 08:22:54 PM »
Mike Cirba:

Makes sense.  Honestly, I couldn't get past the unappealing vistas to analyze it that carefully.  Perhaps I'm just spoiled by the sanctuary concept of my home course (Sand Ridge).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio & Donald Bren’s Shady Canyon Golf Cl
« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2002, 10:06:40 PM »
Tim:

I had the same reaction. It certainly is more inspiring, when looking at a photo of a golf hole from a higher elevation, to see something like Lake Michigan in the background than the smog-shrouded airplaine hangar where they're shooting "Goldmember."

Rick
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Tom Fazio & Donald Bren’s Shady Canyon Golf Cl
« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2002, 10:23:13 PM »
Rick,
To let you know, the movie is no longer going to be called "Goldmember." At least that is what I heard here on the coast.

Pat, Unfortunately, I think the claim of some particpants on this site being "bias" is pretty inaccurate. I mean if I'm looking at two cars to buy, one is a Mercedes and the other is a Yugo, why am I considered bias for taking the Mercedes?

Personally I think it is all about choice, and if I had my choice, I would choose _____&_______ over ____ _____ because I like _____&________'s work better because it embodies a spirit which I think can best be described as I like the game to be presented. So tell me, how is this being bias?

I think this is all about likes and dislikes. Do you find it all strange that most people that frequent GREAT golf courses and that don't live in the state of New Jersey like the style of _____&_______ over ____ _____?

I guess I mean that I'm not shoving my local award winning GCA, Ted Robinson down your throat am I?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »