Pound Ridge

[Ted Kramer]

I played Pound Ridge yesterday with a client.
The course was in excellent shape.
The greens and surrounds were pretty interesting/demanding.
A few of the tee shots on the par 4s didn't require driver.
I'd say there were a number of different options available in terms of how to play a number of the holes.
So it sounds like a pretty interesting, cool, fun course huh?

I have absolutely NO desire to play there again.

The course is simply too severe looking.
It isn't too difficult if you can drive the ball well -
I haven't been playing any golf and it really shows in my short game and my ability to score, but ball-striking-wise i wasn't too bad. . .
We played from the 2nd to last set of tees and I didn't have many shots in with more than an 8 iron.
I think the course is plenty "playable" although there are a few goofy holes/features/elements.
With all that being said, the course just doesn't "do it for me".
It seems contrived, not natural, not comfortable, awkward, and way "over-done"
I don't want to sound like a GCA Snob or elitist - in fact if I had 10 rounds to play at either Lido or Pound Ridge I'd be 9-1 or maybe 8-2 in favor of Lido . . . I don't need a course to have pedigree or history to enjoy it, but I do like the course to flow a little bit. I like a course to err on the side of an understated look/feel.

I've played some golf at Bulle Rock too, another relatively respected and modern Dye design. I like Bulle a lot better. While Bulle Rock isn't amongst my favorites, I would again choose Bulle Rock in the 9-1 / 8-2 range over Pound Ridge.

Pound Ridge was basically empty yesterday. I have no idea how a place like that stays in business . . .

-Ted

 

[Brad LeClair]

Ted

Agree 100%.  Some things i really didn't enjoy aside from the very contrived nature of the place was the fact that at that point (2 summers ago) they were watering the fescue.  If you had the unfortunate pleasure of landing there, you could not even put a wedge on the ball which to me is approx a 2.5 stroke penalty.

[Tim Gavrich]

Interesting comments.  I myself played there a couple weeks ago and enjoyed the golf course.  I will certainly concede that the golf course has a very "manufactured" look which comes with the territory when you hire Pete Dye to design a course for you.  It didn't really bother me when I played it; I've come to expect such visuals from Dye courses.

Ted Kramer--

Have you played any of Mike Strantz's courses?  I'm especially referring to the likes of Tobacco Road and Tot Hill Farm.  Both of those courses (as well as Strantz's other courses) are very clearly non-minimalist efforts, much like Pound Ridge.  In fact, those who are familiar with and fond of Strantz courses (meyself included) are intrigued by the fact that the courses are very "severe-looking" but are actually fairly playable if the golfer keeps his wits about him.

Brad--

The fescue looked pretty think but a bit less than a 2.5 stroke penalty when I played Pound Ridge about 2 1/2 weeks ago.  I know that it takes a while to get long fescue to thin out to a more playable consistency; maybe they were watering it in order to get that process rolling?

I wrote a little review of Pound Ridge with a few pictures for my Hartford Golf Examiner site...http://www.examiner.com/x-10682-Hartford-Golf-Examiner~y2010m6d29-Destination-Pound-Ridge-Golf-Club

Cheers.

--Tim

[Ronald Montesano]

Nice story on Pound Ridge....Nice gig with the Hartford Examiner...they pay well?

$235 is meaty for a round of golf.

Nice corollary between Strantz (adored) and Dye (mixed) on this site.

[Matt_Ward]

Maybe can speak to what's going on now -- but the desire to have high mounds flanking fairways with rough cut is not smart for everyday play.

PR is also way too penal on the driving front -- the slightest push or pull can be a reload situation at anytime -- especially on the back side.

Also, what is the thinking -- shall I call it that -- on the 18th -- especially from the champ tees with the trees blocking the path.

There are a number of fine holes at PR but the crampness of the grounds and the sheer split between good shot and doomed shot makes for a course that few will decide to play multiple rounds there.

One last item I really like the par-3 15th over the wetlands -- even with the rock slab in the rear -- and the par-5 16th and the par-4 17th make for two demanding but very solid holes.

[Tim Gavrich]

Maybe can speak to what's going on now -- but the desire to have high mounds flanking fairways with rough cut is not smart for everyday play.

PR is also way too penal on the driving front -- the slightest push or pull can be a reload situation at anytime -- especially on the back side.

Also, what is the thinking -- shall I call it that -- on the 18th -- especially from the champ tees with the trees blocking the path.

There are a number of fine holes at PR but the crampness of the grounds and the sheer split between good shot and doomed shot makes for a course that few will decide to play multiple rounds there.

One last item I really like the par-3 15th over the wetlands -- even with the rock slab in the rear -- and the par-5 16th and the par-4 17th make for two demanding but very solid holes.

Matt--

If it was the case that one needed to hit a drive over or around any trees on the 18th at Pound Ridge when you last played it, I believe they either fell down or were removed since then.  When I played the course on the 12th, the 18th tee shot was pretty straightforward; bunkers down the left, mounds down the right.  There is a tree or two, but it seemed to be the case that only a drive flared poorly out to the right would catch them.  Do you have any pictures of those trees?

As for it being penal off the tee, I agree, but I guess I find the challenge to be alright, as long as players are realistic about their abilities.  If my father, a ~12 handicapper who hits his tee shots about 220-235 yards on a good swing, played the tees around 6,200 yards (which is the length for most tee sets he plays), he would have enough room to hit drives without losing a non-perfect one, IMO.

[Ted Kramer]

Interesting comments.  I myself played there a couple weeks ago and enjoyed the golf course.  I will certainly concede that the golf course has a very "manufactured" look which comes with the territory when you hire Pete Dye to design a course for you.  It didn't really bother me when I played it; I've come to expect such visuals from Dye courses.

Ted Kramer--

Have you played any of Mike Strantz's courses?  I'm especially referring to the likes of Tobacco Road and Tot Hill Farm.  Both of those courses (as well as Strantz's other courses) are very clearly non-minimalist efforts, much like Pound Ridge.  In fact, those who are familiar with and fond of Strantz courses (meyself included) are intrigued by the fact that the courses are very "severe-looking" but are actually fairly playable if the golfer keeps his wits about him.

Brad--

The fescue looked pretty think but a bit less than a 2.5 stroke penalty when I played Pound Ridge about 2 1/2 weeks ago.  I know that it takes a while to get long fescue to thin out to a more playable consistency; maybe they were watering it in order to get that process rolling?

I wrote a little review of Pound Ridge with a few pictures for my Hartford Golf Examiner site...http://www.examiner.com/x-10682-Hartford-Golf-Examiner~y2010m6d29-Destination-Pound-Ridge-Golf-Club

Cheers.

--Tim

Hello Tim,

As far as Strantz courses go, I've played both Caledonia and True Blue multiple times. I rate both of them WELL ahead of Pound Ridge. Again, using the 10 round scale if were choosing between Cal, True Blue and Pound Ridge, Pound Ridge would get 0 plays and that wouldn't be a difficult decision for me at all. I love Caledonia and True Blue, I haven't played Tobacco Road or Tot Hill Farm.

-Ted

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

The trees I spoke about regarding the 18th -- they were only in play when you played the tip tees. From the other tee positions that would not be the case.

I do agree w you that playing the appropriate tees is always a smart move. However, PR does have a few choke points where the slightest push and pull can result in too many reload situations. The grass cuts on the flanking mounds is another pet peeve of mine -- especiallly for the higher handicap player.

Ted:

You are free to rate PR a "0." I see the course being better than that -- there are a few holes of note and with the proper attention to turf grooming would help matters. The issue boils down to forcing in holes on a tough piece of property and that's especially the case when you get to the early holes on the back nine -- the stretch between #10 and #13.

[Ted Kramer]

Tim:

The trees I spoke about regarding the 18th -- they were only in play when you played the tip tees. From the other tee positions that would not be the case.

I do agree w you that playing the appropriate tees is always a smart move. However, PR does have a few choke points where the slightest push and pull can result in too many reload situations. The grass cuts on the flanking mounds is another pet peeve of mine -- especiallly for the higher handicap player.

Ted:

You are free to rate PR a "0." I see the course being better than that -- there are a few holes of note and with the proper attention to turf grooming would help matters. The issue boils down to forcing in holes on a tough piece of property and that's especially the case when you get to the early holes on the back nine -- the stretch between #10 and #13.

Matt,

I didn't/wouldn't rate the course a 0. I said i would play it 0 times out of ten if choosing between Caledonia, True Blue, and Pound Ridge.

-Ted

[Chris_Blakely]

I played Pound Ridge yesterday with a client.
The course was in excellent shape.
The greens and surrounds were pretty interesting/demanding.
A few of the tee shots on the par 4s didn't require driver.
I'd say there were a number of different options available in terms of how to play a number of the holes.
So it sounds like a pretty interesting, cool, fun course huh?

I have absolutely NO desire to play there again.

The course is simply too severe looking.
It isn't too difficult if you can drive the ball well -
I haven't been playing any golf and it really shows in my short game and my ability to score, but ball-striking-wise i wasn't too bad. . .
We played from the 2nd to last set of tees and I didn't have many shots in with more than an 8 iron.
I think the course is plenty "playable" although there are a few goofy holes/features/elements.
With all that being said, the course just doesn't "do it for me".
It seems contrived, not natural, not comfortable, awkward, and way "over-done"
I don't want to sound like a GCA Snob or elitist - in fact if I had 10 rounds to play at either Lido or Pound Ridge I'd be 9-1 or maybe 8-2 in favor of Lido . . . I don't need a course to have pedigree or history to enjoy it, but I do like the course to flow a little bit. I like a course to err on the side of an understated look/feel.

I've played some golf at Bulle Rock too, another relatively respected and modern Dye design. I like Bulle a lot better. While Bulle Rock isn't amongst my favorites, I would again choose Bulle Rock in the 9-1 / 8-2 range over Pound Ridge.

Pound Ridge was basically empty yesterday. I have no idea how a place like that stays in business . . .

-Ted

 

Wow, it must be awfull b/c I hate Lido Beach and would never play that course 9 to 1 over anything.  If you said Split Rock GC at Pelham Bay Park I could see that for a similar muni course, but Lido Beach come on.

Chris

[Matt_Ward]

Ted:

Keep in mind that the layouts you mentioned positively like TR and Caledonia and True Blue are all heavily influenced by the insertion of man's hands. PR has issues with the property -- where things get really puzzling is how the 10th hole swings down as a d0g-leg left with the stupid tree and bunker on the right -- a high pushed tee shot can serve as incoming fire on the following hole -- the par-3 11th and that same hole faces a similar fate with the oncoming par-4 12th coming from the opposite direction.

PR is just badly served with this crowded-in condition. The par-5 13th is also a vexing hole -- the fairway is really too narrow and the area of land left is rather cramped. Having three holes forced in the way it was is overkill in my mind. No more than two (2) holes should have been in that area -  but then the question remains what else could be done?

I think you mau have missed the boat on plenty of interesting holes. The starting hole is well done -- one of the best of its kind among public courses I have played in all of the metro area. You pull it slightly to the left and the trees deeper into the driving zone play a huge role. Playing down the right is preferred but the Dyes have lulled the player in to believing left is better.

You also had nothing to say about the par-3 15th and the superb 16th and and 17th holes.

#18 is just overkill to the max.

[Stewart Abramson]

I played Pound Ridge yesterday with a client.
The course was in excellent shape.
The greens and surrounds were pretty interesting/demanding.
A few of the tee shots on the par 4s didn't require driver.
I'd say there were a number of different options available in terms of how to play a number of the holes.
So it sounds like a pretty interesting, cool, fun course huh?

I played Pound Ridge two days ago and agree with all of the foregoing. However, My feelings about the course/round are more favorable than Ted K's. I know the course has been discussed here several times and I don't want to beat a dead horse, but we had a fun day, enjoyed by four players ranging from 4 to 14 index ( a 4  who has played the course 160 times, a 12  who was a long time member of nearby Tamarack and now plays PR 5 or 6 times a year (don't ask), a 7  who belongs to Lake Mohawk in Sparta and me, a 14 , both palying PR for the first time.) My view of the coure is closer to Tim G's article. Just a few obervations:

We paid $150 and although it's certainly not a bargain, we didn't feel ripped off. I think the rack $235 is a lot to pay but would have no problem once or twice a year playing at the $150 rate rate. We travel a lot and $150 is not outrageous comapred to many resort/destination courses. The guy who has played 160 rounds there pays less with some sort of pre-paid arrangment for multiple rounds. There are apparaently a bunch of players who do that as it is less than the cost of an area club, with no initaiation fees or minimums.

The parking lot had several dozen cars and I was surprised it was that busy on a chilly misty midweek morning. Most of the players must have gone out early, as we teed off after 11 am and had the course to ourselves, not seeing a group ahead of or behind us.  The guy who is the regular there said that they had in excess of 16,000 rounds there in 2010.  He also said that the fairway tree that has been discussed on GCA fell down in a storm earlier in the year.

Based on a couple of GCA threads I arrived with pretty low expectations and thinking I'd lose a lot of balls on very tight fairways. I lost only two for the day, one with a bad drive on #12 and the other on #13, which is the hole with the big rock in the middle of the view off the tee, where I drew it nto the natural area left of the fairway. I'd play #13  differently if I play there again. Only a few holes felt cramped or "crowded in" even for a driver like me who is directionally challenged.

I don't think that the 10-0 voting between PR vs Caledonia or True Blue is the right test. If I take a trip to Myrtle Beach or any destination, whatever my favorite courses are, I always play others in the area. If PR was in Myrtle Beach and I paid $150 for the round (which is what you pay for TB, Caledonia, Dunes Club,  Barefoot and the other higher priced courses in that area at peak season) It would fit in well. The point is even if I think TB and Cally are much better couirses, that doesn't mean that this course dosn't provide for an enjoayable round of golf.

Here is a link to photos of each hole

http://sports.webshots.com/album/578848566MgVIkV

[Mike Sweeney]

It looks like they have cut back the rough and maybe it is the fallish pictures but the fescue seems minimal. I am headed up there for a hike today with my son so I will stop by.

JLoh a late season round??

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Living in Pound Ridge:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/24/realestate/24living.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hpw

The course is not mentioned.

[Matt_Ward]

Stewart:

What tees did you play the day you were there ?

When the others have played there what tee boxes do they regularly play ?

I ask that because PR is a far different course from certain tee boxes. The 2nd hole is a great example -- played from the tips the bottleneck of the bunkers on both sides can wreak major havoc. Ditto for the 3rd with its extended carry -- especially when played into a prevailing south / southwest wind.

thanks,

[Stewart Abramson]

It looks like they have cut back the rough and maybe it is the fallish pictures but the fescue seems minimal.

Matt - The rough was not too bad. However, there were areas  where it was thick and we did spend  a lot of time looking for balls that had settled down  the high stuff around the mounds. This time of year the leaves make it harder for the eye to spot balls in the rough. The guys who played PR before commented that the fescue was not as much of an issue as earlier in the year.

What tees did you play the day you were there ? When the others have played there what tee boxes do they regularly play ?

We were split between the "Granite" tees (6261 yards)  and the "Oak" tees (6773) I played the Granite with the guy from Tamarack, who usually plays from the Oaks, but I didn't want to be the only "wuss". The guy who is the regular there is a long hitter (i'd guess consistently 275+ and didn't have too much of a problem from the Oaks, which is what he usually plays, although he said he sometimes plays from the tips (7175)  and that his best round ever there was a 74 from  the tips.

I'm not a big hitter.  6261 was enough for me and it seemed to work that I could find the more forgiving landing areas.  I would have gotten beaten up playing further back.

[Matt_Ward]

Stewart:

PR is a FAR FAR FAR different course from the tips. From the 6,200 and even 6,700 yard markers things are vastly different and the width of the landing areas, forced carries are all much easier.

Glad to hear about the fescue being cut down -- but the issue of the crampled inner half of holes starting with #10 thru #14 is still there.

I like the course for a number of holes there -- the collective par-3 holes are fairly good -- especially the final one on the inner half.

The issue is trying to play the place with no more than one sleeve from the tips -- anyone having less than a stellar driving day will be in for a long round.

Curious to know - among the public you have played how would you rate PR among them ?

[Stewart Abramson]

Curious to know - among the public you have played how would you rate PR among them ?

In light of the current GCA thread about Bandon not being public, I'm nervous about calling PR public     I've played more than 600 public courses (if we include UK clubs that have public access and also include expensive daily fee courses like Bandon and PR)  Other than a few that are extremely memorable (good) and a few at the other extreme , I tend to rate courses with a steep bell curve, meaning that most are bunched up in the middle. It will be easier if I  limit the comparison to courses in the tri-state  area. I liked it more than the Westchester County owned public courses and more than most of the Catskills courses. I prefered PR to Mansion Ridge and I thought it was comparable to Ballyowen, Neshanic Spook Rock and Patriot Hills (which I like but many don't). I prefer the two Lake of Isles  courses to PR (although one of those is not techinaclly public).  PR is not in the league of the Knoll , or Black or Red. Based on one play it's hard to say more.

[Matt_Ward]

Stewart:

For the sake of the broadest argument if you want to call PR public so be it.

I'm guessing your rating of PR is from the 6,200 yard tees. Would your thoughts have changed if viewed only from the tips ?

I wonder how the top tier players you played with would view the course solely from the tips ?

thanks,

[Stewart Abramson]

I shouldn't judge a course from tees that I would never play and can't handle. I'm pretty sure my view would change, but that would probably be true of any course of that length where bogey replaces par on almost every hole based merely on length before taking into account any other challenges. I find it difficult to judge a course based on having to put myself in the shoes of a player whose skills I can't come close to. They play a different game than a short hitting 14 handicapper. My own views are based on the tees I played since that's my experience. My course comparisons are "aples to apples" as I am almost always able to find tees between 6200 and 6600 (or mix and match to create a course of the correct length for my skill level.)

The guy who has played PR 160 times obviously loves it and does play from the tips on ocassion. Who would play a course that often, especially an expensive one,  if they didn't like it? The other two guys liked the course even more than I dd and they loved the look of the course from the tips. One kept telling me to go to the back tee boxes just to look. There would be some impossible holes for me from that length (e.g. #12 which, if I recall correctly, requires a carry of about 230 yards across a natural area to reach the closest edge of the fairway, while the middle tees only require about 150-160.)Those guys can both hold there own from the 6700 tees, not sure about 7200. From a personal view point I don't see any reason to downgrade a course because of its toughness from 7200 tees that I'll never play. If we had to view a course solely from 7200 yards I'd give up the game. Fortunately for me I'm not forced to use those tees.

I've been doing all the "talking". How do you compare PR to other nearby public courses, disregarding green fees?

[Tim Gavrich]

Stewart:

For the sake of the broadest argument if you want to call PR public so be it.

I'm guessing your rating of PR is from the 6,200 yard tees. Would your thoughts have changed if viewed only from the tips ?

I wonder how the top tier players you played with would view the course solely from the tips ?

thanks,

Matt--

I don't mean to butt in, but I thought that Pound Ridge was quite difficult from the tips (which I played), but not excessively so.  There are a couple holes where the very back tees require a carry of over 250 yards to the fairway, and the back tee markers were moved up on the day I played.  They might as well just abandon those tee boxes and have the golf course tip out at 6,950 rather than 7,050 or whatever its back-tee yardage is.  But as they were set up, the back tees were eminently fair; just difficult.  I played pretty well to shoot an 80 there my first time seeing the course back in June.

Cheers.

--Tim

[Matt_Ward]

PR is VERY severe from the back tees and any playability that people can contemplate from the mid or front markers changes dramatically with the narrow drive zones you encounter.

Help me out -- someone has played PR 160 times !

That's quite a feat in such a short time.

I'll opine on what thoughts from what you asked shortly.

Tim G:

I'll also reponsd to your post too.
thanks,

[Stewart Abramson]

someone has played PR 160 times !

I have no reason to doubt it. It is in effect his home course. He lives just a stone's throw away.

[Jeff Loh]

I feel really sorry for the guy has has played PR 160 times. From any set of tees.
Mike S--lets go back and confirm our "suspicions".

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

The 2nd and 3rd holes from the tips are just mind numbing demands to the max. Play the 3rd from the tips when a southerly wind blows iny our face and 95%+ are not going to be able to make the carry.

The thing abnout PR is that tip tees demands are a good ways beyond what you face from middle or frontal tees. I played the course from the tips and it amazed me on the exhaustive nature of what you need to do from an exection standpoint.

When I played the course from the middle tees the place is abot 4-5 shots easier. The 10th hole from the mid-tees allows striong players with the clear option in getting near the green with the tee shot. When played from the extreme rear tees the execution becomes that much more demanding with penalities of all types awiaiting the slightest push or pull.

As I mentioned to Stewart below, the elimination of the high fescue is something I'd like to play and see the impact that that casues.

No doubt my opinion might change with another play because of that reality.

Stewart:

Let me point out one aspect of PR -- the 1st hole is a fine starter -- in fact, I think it's one of the best strategic holes at the course.

When you stand on the tee the drive zone suggest hitting it left - when in reality the right side is the better choice. There is sufficient width for the hole -- something that PR doesn't provide on so many other holes. The drive at #1 needs to hug more of the right side because it then provides a more open avenue to all pin placements. The more left you go the more difficult the approach is because of the lack of total visibility and because of the angle of approach from that side.

Unfortunately, things change dramatically with the 2nd hole -- there you get a corset-type fairway that pinches in to a degree far beyond reasonableness. From the tip -- the space betrween the two points is akin to the same amount of space a field goal kicker sees from 50+ yards away.

PR, from a straight difficulty dimension -- has no peer save for the likes of Bethpage Black in the metro NYC area in my mind. The person who has the slightest hiccup with the driver can be for a very long day -- DB's and even TB's are not out of range. Please keep in mind this impression is when I played the ocurse with the vast amount of fescue grass that was there. Likely, that has changed but the demand side for driving the ball is still there. But from an architectural standpoint -- I find the course fairly limiting. Likely that is tied to the limited acreage available and as a result you get cramped outcomes -- especially on the stretch of holes from #10 thru #13.

I don't doubt the difficulty of PR but from the standpoint of providing alternative routes and the like the course is fairly one dimensional.

Hav to wonder if anything was done to the silly tree that blocked the fairway view when playing #18 from the tips ?