I have seen the future...

[jeffwarne]

and it is bleak

So today I volunteer to be a chaperone at a junior tournament.

As I approach the first tee i'm told they're thirty minutes behind.
As I wait for my group's turn, the first kid I see takes 6 practice swings (complete with divots) it becomes pretty clear to me why they're behind.

So I finally get out on the course and I'm chaperoning three fine young ladies aged 11 and under with beautiful golf swings and COMPLETE preshot routines but not overwhelmingly slow  on full swings.
We get to the greens and all three of them mark their ball , adjust the cheater line, and back off  3-6 times EVERY TIME THEY HIT A PUTT (which was somewhere between 3 and 5 times per hole-per player-per putt.)
I absolutle was amazed/devastated with the process each was employing-not only with how long it took,but how random/poor their results were.

Yet amazingly we were waiting until about the fourth hole when the group in front pulled away. At this point I explained to them how we had to speed up which they did in their walking pace and full swing routines.
But when they got to the greens they just couldn't speed up the cheaterline adjustments (yet amazingly they were pretty poor putters with the exception of one girl who was at best decent)
We caught up on the 6th hole due to another backup and they looked at me like I was crazy for rushing them only two holes before.

Then it dawned on me-THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO REASON FOR KIDS IN TOURNAMENTS TO PLAY FAST as that only makes them wait more. AND IT HAPPENS WAY BEFORE COLLEGE!!!

I know kids mimic the nonsense they see on the TOURS (particularly the LPGA), but who's teaching them this nonsense?
I would put a bullet in my brain if I had to watch this regularly in a Saturday foursome....

[Phil McDade]

Jeff:

I've watched a fair amount of high school golf the past few years, and it is indeed painful. Watching tournament play -- like a state high school tourney, or a sectional qualifying tourney -- doubly so. And there is absolutely no incentive for any of these kids to hurry, because they inevitably run into the kind of backup you describe. A good buddy of mine is a local high school coach, and he says his efforts in practice to get his players to speed up play and not dawdle are pretty much a lost cause, because if it's not practiced universally, even the quickest players will be forced to wait sooner than later. I often think the single best asset a good high school golfer can develop is patience.

Not sure what the answer is...although banning the cheater line would be a step in the right direction.

[Tom_Doak]

Here's a simple solution:

Courses are donating space on the course, aren't they?  How about the courses just declare that the matches are allotted four hours and they're done, no matter which hole they are on?

It might not speed up the play but at least it would open up after four hours.

[jeffwarne]

Not sure what the answer is...although banning the cheater line would be a step in the right direction.

Phil,
I honestly never thought the cheater line was a big deal until I saw this nonsense.
and it was clear to me they just couldn't pull the trigger until the line(carefully drawn with a sharpie) looked perfect.

Which is why I putt looking at all white
 (I do occasionally use the label in practice drills when overcoming alignment issues)

[jeffwarne]

Here's a simple solution:

Courses are donating space on the course, aren't they?  How about the courses just declare that the matches are allotted four hours and they're done, no matter which hole they are on?

It might not speed up the play but at least it would open up after four hours.

Tom,
Doesn't really work unless immediately policed with early groups.

A perfect example:
As we stood waiting on the 7th tee with a group on the green and fairway, an official came up to tell me there was a shotgun starting in 20 minutes and that we would need to hurry to avoid being in the middle of it.
He looked at my group and said, "I realize that's not going to be easy"
I told him he was working on the wrong end of the field (Where exactly did he think we were going to go?)

[Ronald Montesano]

I have met the enemy and it is  ...  Mimicry.

I think that comparing high school golf to AJGA-quality junior golf is what we need to look at.  The former are similar to a corporate or charity outing...it gets them out of gym class, some are good but the majority don't care to speed up play.  The latter competitors do care and will play quickly, as the AJGA holds some sway over them (play slowly and you're out.)

Imagine that we laid down the following caveat to any group of golfers, no matter the age:  This round doesn't matter, but you only have 4 hours to play.  If you're not done with 18 by that time, you're done with what you've completed.

There are so many layers to an H-S tournament:  school pride, family pride, future consequences...the problem is that it matters at all!  If kids played h-s golf like they used to play pickup hoops or sandlot baseball, we'd have no time issues.

I will ask this question:  in a shotgun, if you can place two groups on 14 tees and 1 group on 4 tees (32 groups of 128 total golfers), on which 4 tees would you place one group...would it be the par threes?  the fives?  certain fours?

[Peter Pallotta]

What a shame, Jeff - especially since it's not hard to imagine that the  routines that these young kids now think are helping their games will be the same routines that will drive the vast majority of them away from the game in a few years, and maybe forever.

Peter 

[John Moore II]

Junior tournaments take forever because so many instructors teach kids to have these full routines and such. I have never had a long routine personally, and I don't teach people to have a long routine. They need to allot people no more than 4:15 to play and put these kids on the clock, penalize them strokes, and DQ them if necessary. Hate to treat the kids that way, but...lets see the easiest way to put this...THEY'RE THE ONES PLAYING SLOW!!! So, given that, I have slightly less sympathy for them. And I hate to talk bad about my fellow instructors, but they are teaching people to play this slow and I disagree with that strongly.

[RSLivingston_III]

I think they would need to set times for individual shots.

[Mike Sweeney]

A perfect example:
As we stood waiting on the 7th tee with a group on the green and fairway, an official came up to tell me there was a shotgun starting in 20 minutes and that we would need to hurry to avoid being in the middle of it.
He looked at my group and said, "I realize that's not going to be easy"
I told him he was working on the wrong end of the field (Where exactly did he think we were going to go?)

The simple answer in my opinion is to put the kids in charge. In US Squash (and I think European and Egyptian tournaments) the kids referee each others matches and in order to get "rated", they have to pass a referee test. The kids take it very seriously and I have seen matches where kids with "a past" do their absolute best to call a fair match despite previous politics. They take it very seriously. I have seen 10 year old girls call 16 year old boys matches and they never flinch.

Put in a time limit, and allow the kids to call a warning, then penalty stoke, and it will end. It will be slightly more complicated as your playing partner is also your referee, but reputations spread very quickly these days, so you don't want the rep as a penalty (unreasonable) caller.

[John Moore II]

A perfect example:
As we stood waiting on the 7th tee with a group on the green and fairway, an official came up to tell me there was a shotgun starting in 20 minutes and that we would need to hurry to avoid being in the middle of it.
He looked at my group and said, "I realize that's not going to be easy"
I told him he was working on the wrong end of the field (Where exactly did he think we were going to go?)

The simple answer in my opinion is to put the kids in charge. In US Squash (and I think European and Egyptian tournaments) the kids referee each others matches and in order to get "rated", they have to pass a referee test. The kids take it very seriously and I have seen matches where kids with "a past" do their absolute best to call a fair match despite previous politics. They take it very seriously. I have seen 10 year old girls call 16 year old boys matches and they never flinch.

Put in a time limit, and allow the kids to call a warning, then penalty stoke, and it will end. It will be slightly more complicated as your playing partner is also your referee, but reputations spread very quickly these days, so you don't want the rep as a penalty (unreasonable) caller.

Of course, I'm not 15ish years old, but I'd love to have the reputation as the penalty caller. Seems like there is nothing wrong with being someone who enforces the letter of the rules.

[Jud_T]

This is exactly why my kid has tired of playing junior tournaments.  10 year olds grinding over 5 footers all day.  I can understand wanting medal play scores to rank high school seniors and college players, but why can't these kids play mostly match play at this age?

[Bill Hyde]

My son plays a lot of competitive golf (he's 16), it really is amazing how bad the pace is. 4:30 is fast, 5:00 is standard - for threesomes. Furtunately, he doesn't want me to follow along!

Then again, I have played in plenty of qualifiers with adults and the pace is just as painful. So perhaps they're just perpetuating a sad tradition.

[jeffwarne]

This is exactly why my kid has tired of playing junior tournaments.  10 year olds grinding over 5 footers all day.  I can understand wanting medal play scores to rank high school seniors and college players, but why can't these kids play mostly match play at this age?

What I really can't understand is how my son LOVES playing these events, yet hardly ever plays casual rounds, despite frequent opportunities.
He putts quickly in the events,rarely even marking his ball (with not great success but no less success than the cheater liners).
He was a couple groups ahead of the group I chaperoned, and every time I saw him he was having fun, smiling...... and waiting.
Never heard him complain about the pace

[M. Shea Sweeney]

A perfect example:
As we stood waiting on the 7th tee with a group on the green and fairway, an official came up to tell me there was a shotgun starting in 20 minutes and that we would need to hurry to avoid being in the middle of it.
He looked at my group and said, "I realize that's not going to be easy"
I told him he was working on the wrong end of the field (Where exactly did he think we were going to go?)

The simple answer in my opinion is to put the kids in charge. In US Squash (and I think European and Egyptian tournaments) the kids referee each others matches and in order to get "rated", they have to pass a referee test. The kids take it very seriously and I have seen matches where kids with "a past" do their absolute best to call a fair match despite previous politics. They take it very seriously. I have seen 10 year old girls call 16 year old boys matches and they never flinch.

Put in a time limit, and allow the kids to call a warning, then penalty stoke, and it will end. It will be slightly more complicated as your playing partner is also your referee, but reputations spread very quickly these days, so you don't want the rep as a penalty (unreasonable) caller.

That would get particularly interesting on the Junior MET PGA Tour.

[Phil McDade]

Jeff:

I have been amazed watching tourneys the last two years how prevelant the use of the cheater line is in high school golf.

Coaching is an issue as well. Wisconsin, tragically, allows golf coaches to walk alongside golfers and, yes, use laser yardage finders to measure exact distances to pins.

Part of the problem, too, is unfamiliarity with rules and a lack of truly qualified officials (and the nature of golf being played on an enormous canvas). I've followed threesomes in which one of the players has a question on the rule, and the other two players try to be helpful, but there is often confusion, and out of caution they ask some parent to run down a coach to get it right.

Mike -- interesting system in squash. Think it would work in golf?

[Norbert P]

 

 The Chess Clock. 

[John Moore II]

Mike -- interesting system in squash. Think it would work in golf?

I do think that system would work in golf, however it would be a very time consuming affair. I have studied for many hours the Rules of Golf and I am by no means an expert. Ask John Vander Borght how many hours he has studied the rules to become proficient. It takes a lot of time to become a proficient rules official. I volunteered at a club today to be a rules official for some of the club events and I am hoping they don't ask me to do it within the next month, because I don't feel like I have that good a recollection of the rules right now.

There are a lot of things that contribute to slow play in events. Not the least of which is that most organizers don't have enough guts to call someone on slow play.

[mike_beene]

Why not have a rule that you can mark once and then continuous putting with no remarking and that you have one minute from when you strike your first putt to be done with the hole.

[Garland Bayley]

 

 The Chess Clock. 

That's wonderful Slagbert! Hit your shot, punch the clock. The flag drops on your opponent, he loses!
 

[Tim Martin]

Although many of the suggestions to speed up play are good ones medal golf at every level does not need many things to go wrong to bring it to a grinding halt. One lost tee ball without the player hitting a provisional can bring things to a standstill when he or she has to walk all the way back to the tee and reload. Everyone has hit a drive that they thought was good only to lose the ball. Spotters are not always in the right place. Same when someone makes a 10 with a lost ball and or a ball or two in the hazard. These situations are inherent to medal golf and play must continue until you hole out. I agree with Jeff that the pre-shot routines are maddening to watch but some of the issues are unavoidable.

[Bill Seitz]

Here's a simple solution:

Courses are donating space on the course, aren't they?  How about the courses just declare that the matches are allotted four hours and they're done, no matter which hole they are on?

It might not speed up the play but at least it would open up after four hours.

Tom, I'm not sure how the AJGA or other junior tournaments do it these days, but when I was in high school, the school paid our greens fees for all of our practice rounds and matches.  We played at a public course (Santa Anita, owned by LA County), so they weren't donating space.  We only had one school in the district that played a private club (La Canada high played at La Canada Country Club).  But it seems in all the one-off junior tournaments I played, greens fees were built in to the entry fee.

Regarding pace of play in adult events, I actually had the enjoyable experience of playing a Chicago District Amateur Qualifier in just barely over four hours a few weeks ago.  That rarely happens.  Then again, we were a twosome and had the second tee time of the day.  We slowed down when we got to the back nine and ran into the groups who teed off on the other side.  About 15 years ago, I played in a 36 hole sectional qualifier for the Publinx in Southern California.  We had tee times for each round spaced six hours apart, enough for a five hour round and an hour for lunch.  We walked right off the 18th green and onto the first tee.  Talk about a death march. 

[Gary Daughters]

Jeff, I work with kids through the First Tee program, and one of my primary rules is no pre-shot routine.  I don't even allow practice swings.  The kids are fine with it, but other instructors who are are teaching pre-shot routines as a given seem to think I'm either a heretic or deranged.  Kinda crazy when we're talking about 8-12 year olds.

[Tim Gavrich]

I play D-III college golf and in three years of college tournaments, I'd estimate the normal pace of play to be about 4:40 for 18 holes, which is too long by half an hour.  The slow players are everywhere and they're easy to spot, but no officials ever seem to have the cojones to penalize anyone.  So the slowpokes will continue to get away with it.

I have also been disappointed with the inconsistency with calling penalties for improper behavior on the course.  In the two stroke-play rounds of the CT Amateur last week, both my groupmates were pretty foul-mouthed at times--within earshot of rules officials to boot.  But nothing happened.  Now I sometimes grunt a bit more loudly than I should after bad shots and I call myself an idiot and whatnot, but almost never with real bad language.  But when players make it to the D-III National Championship and other high-level amateur events, the hammer comes down.  I don't get it--if only people started being punished for unreasonably slow play or bad conduct, things would improve so astonishingly quickly that these things would all but cease to be problems in no time.

[Kevin_Reilly]

As I wait for my group's turn, the first kid I see takes 6 practice swings (complete with divots) it becomes pretty clear to me why they're behind.

Can I ask a stupid question - why would anyone let a young kid take divots on 6 practice swings in front of them?  Maybe I don't have the proper constitution to be an observer at a junior golf tournament, but I couldn't watch something like that happen without doing something about it.