[mike_malone]

 Matt,

    It is a matter of taste not merit. Variety in the flow of the holes , the look of the holes, and the type of shots is valued by many as a key part of architectural criticism . It is THE most important thing to me. On that basis Flynn has a leg up in the Philly area over Aronimink. But, if you use different and very valid values then Aronimink is stellar. It's just that we have a number of great courses in Philly and that tier below Pine Valley is chock full of wonderful courses.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

You use the word "stellar." Can you place a Doak # next to that for me?

I don't doubt that Aronimink is a strong course and might be favored by the low handicap players but does the "restored" architecture there really provide the same kind of excitement and thrill ride that the Flynn courses you champion have? You talk about "different and very valid values. What do you mean by that specifically?

So what makes Aronimink really that special?

When I see words such as "stellar" posted I need some sort of further explanation beyond the one word tag lines.

[Bill Brightly]

Matt,

I have only played it twice in the past three years, but the one thing I noticed was the addition of fairway height collection areas around many of the greens. Presumably, this was heavy rough 20 years ago, which would add to your "demanding but boring" analysis. I have no doubt that the course is far more "Ross-like" in how it plays. I happened to play against their club champ and it was pretty cool to see the variety of shots he hit the few times he missed a green... 

[mike_malone]

 Matt,

     "Demanding" is a value that many hold . On that basis Aronimink is stellar. The length combined with the slopes in the fairways and the size and undulations in the greens are demanding.

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

You have ten rounds to play -- how many do you play at Aronimink and how many at Plainfield ?

If Aronimink can't do more than 3 visits then I don't see it being top 100 USA material.

Frankly, if all they did was cut the grass down just off the greens the base sum of the course remains.

Mike:

OK -- but the elements for "demanding" doesn't light a fire for you -- right? What's missing in your mind at Aronimink?

[Dan Herrmann]

Matt,
I never suggested a free membership - they usually don't exist.

Why do I like Aronimink?
1.  Ross green complexes
2.  Really fine strategic course
3.  Extremely walkable
4.  Everything Mayday said
5.  Incredibly good conditioning that makes the architecture shine
6.  Nice ground movement, starting off the first tee.
7.  It's a lot of fun (sometimes we tend to forget the value of fun - after all, golf is recreation for 99% of us)

Again, Mayday is correct in that Philly is very much a Flynn sort of town.  But we love our Ross too, as evidenced by Aronimink and Gulph Mills.

More info:

[Bill Brightly]

Matt,

I guess I would play 6 at Plainfield and 4 at Aronimink. PCC may have more movement on their greens, AGC may be a slightly tougher test of one's driving and long iron game.  

I am not the one to fully describe all the work that they did, I just mentioned that I noticed the collection areas and green reclamation work that Ron led.  

The other thing I noticed was the imepeccable tree pruning on their old hardwoods. It impressed me so much that I made sure we put that in the budget at my home club. (It is not cheap!)

[JSlonis]

I think Aronimink belongs solidly in the top 5 Philly courses.  The course demands a lot from the player to score well.  Length is a plus, but accuracy is also at a premium. It requires the player to be able to shape shots both off of the tee and into the greens. There is good use of the topography and the greensites are well designed and challenging. 

Ron did an excellent job with the restoration, the bunkering throughout the course was vastly improved.

I'm very curious to see how the best players fair this week.  I've played the course numerous times and it'll be interesting to see what the tour guys will shoot.  We are going to catch some less hot temps for the next few days, hopefully the course will be able to firm up a bit.  I've heard the rough has been quite penal.

[Chris Tritabaugh]

Yeah, yeah, yeah...all this talk is great but lets talk about the important stuff. How about the damn fine logo Ron is sporting on his shirt.

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/golf/97368179.html

Ron has been working on a MP for us at Northland over the past year or so. I can say, as many superintendents working with Ron probably would agree, he is a wonderful architect but an even better person. I am proud to call him a friend. Can't wait to see his work being showcased this weekend.

[Kevin Pallier]

It is a matter of taste not merit. Variety in the flow of the holes , the look of the holes, and the type of shots is valued by many as a key part of architectural criticism . It is THE most important thing to me. On that basis Flynn has a leg up in the Philly area over Aronimink. But, if you use different and very valid values then Aronimink is stellar. It's just that we have a number of great courses in Philly and that tier below Pine Valley is chock full of wonderful courses.

Mayday

I preferred the look of Rolling Green over Aronimink in my trip last year and felt Lancaster was probably a step above again.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

"The Philadelphia Story" from the Golf Channel last night. The player's comments begin about 3min into the piece after TW's press conference "highlights":

http://www.thegolfchannel.com/golf-videos/the-philadelphia-story-6775/?ref=26000

"...it's a big looking golf course..."

[Dan Boerger]

My regular Wednesday evening league partner is playing with Appleby today in the pro-am. What a disappointment it will be next week when he tees it up with me.

I  am hardly objective about it ... but I think Mike's comments are spot on. The green complexes pose almost endless variety for the members, which is nice when one plays the course frequently.

[Matt_Ward]

Guys beyond the hometown pride of the Phila area finally getting some ink -- I can remember the old Philadelphia Classiic at Whitemarsh Valley. Great event for so many years then Phila was abandoned -- I don't hear real love for Aronimink -- just utmost respect for what RP did there.

Clearly, the course I played was different than what is there now.

However, is anyone saying with total certainty that the architecture there is of compelling stuff -- comparable to the likes of a RG, HV and Lancaster. The responses, for the most part, are not saying that at all.

Just a bit more meat from those who believe the course is stellar would help. The one-line Broadway pro-tag lines don't provide much for me.

[Matt_Ward]

Curious to know how people see Whitemarsh Valley in regards to the others already mentioned.

I can remember the par-3 4th being one of the best long par-3 holes I have played in the greater Phila area.

best wishes to those at Aronimink in bringing to light what the Phila golf area provides to a nationwide audience that likely doesn't think much exists there beyond Merion.

[Dan Boerger]

Matt - This is a case of "it is what it is" -- a long course with gentle doglegs, strategic bunkering [particularly for the tee ball), large undulating green complexes that provide the "green inside the green" which makes positioning off the tee even more important if you have a long iron in. I don't think anyone would call the design inspiring, which is IMO a trademark of lots of Ross courses. Death by paper cut to steal a phrase from another thread.

I've never been a rankings freak, and find it difficult to compare such vastly different courses as RG and Aronimink, but I would throw a towel over at least these in the Philly area that I've played: RG, PV, Merion, Philly Country, HV, Lancaster, Gulph Mills, Aronimink.

[Matt_Ward]

Dan:

Interesting how in your list you have Aronimink posted last.

[Dan Boerger]

Matt -- Remember, just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they are not after you ...

[mike_malone]

 Matt,

   I can't recall a single conversation where the best courses in Philly is the topic where WVCC's name has come up.

[mike_malone]

 Matt,

    I think Aronimink reminds me of WFW. It is long, strategic, demanding. It isn't very poetic like Plainfield or Torresdale , to name a Ross in Philly that I prefer. Love tends to go the Flynn courses; respect to Aronimink.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

WF/W has more to it than just respect from those who know the course. WF/W is a thorough examination of all aspects of a player's game -- and it's located on some of the most pedestrian land in Westchester County.

I played Aronimink years ago and clearly changes were made to improve the course so a second round there is something I need to include.

From what I have seen of people making comments -- Aromimink is borderline top five.

In regards to Whitemarsh Mike -- the old Phillie Classic played there was a fun tournament -- I attended a few of them with my Dad.

I liked the course then but maybe I am viewing it through the lens of a junior golfer.

[Mike_Trenham]

Matt,

   I can't recall a single conversation where the best courses in Philly is the topic where WVCC's name has come up.

Mayday, are you going to be at the AT&T on Friday?  As I know a few big time fans that are not WVCC members that are attending. 

WVCC may be the best club in the district if not the best course.  The lockerhouse there rocks.

[JESII]

Matt,

You're looking for someone to convince you on the merits of Aronimink and it's just not possible...but it does shed light on the style in which you state an opinion on here...that you're going to convince others of your opinion.

What you need to do is find your way back there and tell us why it does or does not deserve to be in the top 5 of courses in one of the most competitive regions in the country. Clearly a few of us who know the course (and its competition) simply describing the course in general to support our personal ranking is not good enough for you. It's not Winged Foot West, but Mayday's point was that WFW generated no love from him but he understands its stature.

AGC does not have the terrain of HV or RG, and does not have the charm of Gulph Mills or Philly Country...what it does have is an interesting mix of holes that are probably more suited and enjoyed by longer hitters and lower handicappers but still playable - very few penalty hazards and wide playing corridors - for the vast majority of golfers.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Jim Furyk's opinion:

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/sports/97559164.html

[TEPaul]

Matt:

In my opinion, when one tries to rank courses in the Philadelphia area (mostly we refer to it as the Delaware Valley) it's probably best to do it in basic categories-----eg "championship" courses or architecture and then the others.

In that vein, Aronimink does deserve to be in the top 5 or so in this area. Of course, basically no one around here has ever denied that the two that really top the list around here are Pine Valley and Merion East as Sully and JamieS said above. Just under those two most golfers and tournament golfers around here have considered Huntingdon Valley and Rolling Green to be tough and interesting architecture and tournament courses of that earlier era.

It seems whether Aronimink actually asked Ross to do it or not that his intention with Aronimink really was to create a full-blown tournament or championship course and architecture and venue, and it is that. The common knock on Aronimink around here has been that although it definitely is that it is also a tad boring in its balance and variety in that it really doesn't have much in the way of really good and interesting short holes as the others on the list with it do. However, with these long hitting pros here in town at Aronimink this week I do realize we are all going to see them hit clubs into greens and such that most of us even our tournament players are not familiar with. In other words, we all think of Aronimink as pretty much endlessly long but it's not going to look that way with those Tour guys.

The greens of Aronimink actually never were redesigned and that's lucky because they are really good----some of Ross's best and they show crystal clear how his style in that vein evolved over the years and how it ultimately became in the late 1920s (BTW, the evolution of Ross's style is a totally fascinating subject, in my book).

WVCC and where that stacks up is a good question as is Lancaster or even Lehigh. However, I see some put Gulph Mills into that list. I would definitely not do that even though GMGC's architecture is good and also show clearly Ross's style of an earlier era (1916-17). GMGC is what I would call a really good "members" course or "members architecture." I do not consider it to be a championship style course or architecture even though when it was originally opened in 1917 it was considerably longer than it is now!

Those top few I mentioned----eg PV, Merion East, HVGC and Rolling Green I have called courses and architecture with a "high intensity" lievel. Aronimink is not that way in my opinion and never has been; it is just long pretty much throughout with good greens, good bunker patterns of an era and good topography in a very pretty parkland setting.

Aronimink deserves to be in the top five or so around here and particularly for its "championship" style architecture.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

Hold the phone OK -- I stated I played the course once -- long before RP got involved with the work there. From the comments I have read and gleaned it appears people respect Aronimink but if forced to choose where they would play -- would rather tee it up elsewhere. That's not to say the course doesn't provide something -- clearly improvements were made by RP so it does address the issue on what may have been lacking previously.

The point is that it's possible Aronimink is a one-note pony that appeals primarily to the lower handicap types -- does it have the greatness to be elastic for others? It doesn't seem the case from what you and others have written.

I simply stated that a return engagement for me there would likely show me personally whether or not the course has improved to the level that some believe it has.

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