[C. Squier]

Maybe I'm just more agreeable than others, but I get a kick out of people who say they don't think they have anything in common with an entire group of 250+ people who have committed a large amount of money to play golf.  Local people at that!  Seriously, if you can't find a group of guys to have fun playing with at a local club, you're either not trying hard enough or should find a cave in the mountains to live in.

Clint-

Not that this is meant expressly for me, but I did take a bit of exception to it.  Given the fact that I grew up in a farm community, my summer job was at the local factory with my dad (until about 17), and then went to school in the heart of the South.  Factor in that I work as a coach/trainer and spend a large portion of my time working weddings I foresee myself struggling a bit to "fit in" at the standard Chicago area country club. 

Now obviously there are 200+ members at most clubs and I would be certain to find a good number of people whom I would get along with quite well.  But I am fully knowledgeable that the politics and some of the clique issues would drive me insane.  While I do have a wife who plays and 2 kids the "country club" part of the equation isn't what I would call my ideal environment. 

I have met a number of great GCA people in my short time on the boards, but I know that the people who bleed golf for the club are few and far between.  And that is what makes me a little timid about joining a club.

Now put me at a true golf club......

Chris, I think you're seeing all that is bad due to your wedding history.  No different than washing dishes at a restaurant can sour a person from eating out....you've seen it all.  I grew up in a 2000 person town and play at a club with plenty of people who are, to put it mildly, not in my social circle.  But on the golf course, none of it matters.  It's entirely simple to avoid the politics and the cliques of a club, just be yourself and fun to play with and you'd have no problems fitting in.  At least that's my experience....and I was extremely nervous about all of this when I joined as 26 yr old who didn't know 3 people there.   

[Richard Choi]

Put me in the "would love to join, but" crowd. I would join in a heartbeat if I can join the exact same club my brother join in New Jersey; family friendly with tennis and pool within 15 min of my house. The clubs that I can afford would take about an hour to get there in traffic which rules out any afterwork play/practic and the ones close by are out of my price range.

[Mike_Young]

Seems as though this discussion also reflects the nationwide dilemma re golf.  THERE ARE MORE CHOICES.....for every post that says " I would join but"....they have found an acceptable outlet for playing golf elsewhere ...may not be ideal but it works and therefore they can justify not joining...I think that is basically why Bogey can make the choice he is making re his club...and why so many of us that have been members at a club for years can question whether we care to continue since there are other choices in an area.....but the one reason most of the guys my age , in my club, that consider leaving....and it has not been mentioned here.....our kids are of the age they can join as legacies...and a very small percentage of them want to join...and that is a HUGE problem for clubs everywhere....

[Bill_McBride]

....but the one reason most of the guys my age , in my club, that consider leaving....and it has not been mentioned here.....our kids are of the age they can join as legacies...and a very small percentage of them want to join...and that is a HUGE problem for clubs everywhere....

Very true.  Our dues are only $300, but the minimum monthly bill seems to be $600, even if you avoid the bar.  That's a tough after-tax nut for most young guys getting started in these uncertain times.

[Brent Hutto]

Very true.  Our dues are only $300, but the minimum monthly bill seems to be $600, even if you avoid the bar.  That's a tough after-tax nut for most young guys getting started in these uncertain times.

Bill,

Do you mind me asking what the "non-dues" monthly costs, in general terms?

Our dues are also somewhere in the $300 range and this past winter in a month were I literally did not step foot on the property the bill was a little less than $400 (I think the dues were $292 and that bill was like $378 but my memory may be off). But a few things have since gone up so I doubt it would be much under $400 now and I consider that $400-ish to be the true cost of membership.

With six or seven rounds of golf, generally including a meal each time, plus the odd glove or box of balls at the pro shop most months are pushing $500 but a bill over that is unusual unless I buy merchandise from the pro. I don't think I'd care to be nailed down to that level of expenditure (or more) without getting in those rounds of golf. Does your club have large minimums for several categories?

The one aspect of "club life", at least at my club, that I have to grit my teeth and bear are the nickel-and-dime stuff like dining minimum, a non-optional charge for range balls, a couple dollars per round played and most recently a $15/month cart subsidy if you always walk. I wish they'd just declare the "dues" are $378 or whatever instead of b.s.-ing about it. But it's the same (tough) nut no matter what they call it so I guess it's no big deal...

[Richard Hetzel]

Can someone out there in GCA land show me a successful, thriving GOLF ONLY (well, minimal food and a pool is OK) model that does not try and get you on all the extras, and doesn't insist on cart revenue? USA only BTW.....

[Brent Hutto]

Rich,

I'd be interested to hear the answers to your question. I suspect that Columbia CC might be just about as close to that as we're going to get in this day and age. The club does spend a ton of money on dining although at least prior to the current crunch the only real effect on an individual (golfer) member is a modest $35 monthly minimum. And also due to the current situation we've instituted the $15 cart subsidy I mentioned. But given that we do no restrict walking, ever, and there are no onerous caddie requirements or huge dining and bar minimums I'm fairly satisfied as long as I view those little nickel-and-dime things are part of my dues.

Where it's going to be a problem is if the economy fails to recover for another year or two. Because the boatload of money flowing through the kitchen and dining room every month is something easy to ignore in good times but when the balance sheet turns red it's going to bring the differences between "golfers" and "eaters" into stark relief. And that day is pretty soon, I'm afraid. But for now I'm not sure how many "golfers" at private clubs have it better than I do!

[Jason Topp]

I used to think I was not a club kind of guy but I joined one in 2005 and doubt I will ever go back to being a pure public course player.

I joined because of friends who were members, proximity to my home, practice facilities and pace of play.  All of those advantages proved to be real but the things I like best go far beyond that.  I like having the ability to change things - even though that is a messy process.  I like looking at the tee sheet and having 5 different groups throughout the day that I can sign up to play with and know I will be welcome and will have a good time with the group.  I like the ability it provides to play other private clubs - either through formal competitions, informal home and home rounds or whatever.  I like being part of an organization that is dedicated to having fun.

For me the downside is expense.  Expenses are completely out of whack with public golf.  It has always seemed to me that a model should exist for "affordable private golf" that includes stripping out the vanity expenses but keeping the facilities that are truly used.  For us that would mean keeping the pool, cutting the clubhouse and clubhouse staff to about 1/4 its current size and shutting the place down during the winter other than maybe a basic kitchen with minimal staff and a card room.

[Carl Johnson]

Can someone out there in GCA land show me a successful, thriving GOLF ONLY (well, minimal food) model that does not try and get you on all the extras, and doesn't insist on cart revenue? USA only BTW.....

Richard: Carolina Golf Club (Charlotte) comes pretty darn close, at least for now.  Are we thriving?  Who is these days?  But for now we seem to be getting by.  In addition to a golf course, we do have a swimming pool, which we could not get by without.  Maybe that takes us out of contention for your "contest."  However, we do meet the minimal food requirement, and we don't have any extras to get nailed on and we don't insist on cart revenue.  If I am wrong, I hope our General Manager, Roger Wolfe, who is a GCA member, will see this and offer his insights.  In the meantime, here's a link to a discussion that began about 18 months ago in which Roger shared some of his experience and opinions: http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38006.0/   I'd like to hear Roger's updated comments today.

[Mike Hendren]

Very interesting comments and thoughts.

I should come clean.  I grew up on a small town with a simple 3,000 yards 9 hole golf course that received very little play.  Straight from the car to the first tee and never a wait and 75 minutes rounds always walking.   I was the only kid in junior and senior high who played golf and had the place to myself after school or before or after work in the summer (life-guarding at the "club" pool).  As a result I played 90% of my golf alone with both my thoughts and game.  I had some quick sucess with the game and frankly it was all I had to do - we didn't even have a movie theater in town.  Playing alone became a habit that I carry to this day, and I still look outside the game for social interaction and deeper fellowship, preferring to play golf by myself in the evenings.  Along those lines, it's not unusual for me to not play with other members of The Senior Tour that was  profiled in Golf Digest's Ambush in the course of a year except for our annual trip.   More than anything it is this habit that makes club membership less than ideal.

I would be remiss if I didn't cite the economics as well.  I'm a commercial banker - not an investment banker and while I have no complaints $500/month is a lot of money though in today's world few are willing to admit it.  For the most part I've lost interest in playing the game unless it's in the company of fellow architectural enthusiasts or at a golf course with a de minimis level of architectural interest.   For example I'd trade a month of playing at my club for another round at Aiken Golf Club, much less a more reknowned and celebrated venue.  Golf courses thrill me and always have.  By comparison, the game is old hat, though decidedly more rumpled and faded these days!

Just a few random thoughts.  Thanks for letting me share them.

Kindest regards,

Mike

[Bill_McBride]

Very true.  Our dues are only $300, but the minimum monthly bill seems to be $600, even if you avoid the bar.  That's a tough after-tax nut for most young guys getting started in these uncertain times.

Bill,

Do you mind me asking what the "non-dues" monthly costs, in general terms?

Our dues are also somewhere in the $300 range and this past winter in a month were I literally did not step foot on the property the bill was a little less than $400 (I think the dues were $292 and that bill was like $378 but my memory may be off). But a few things have since gone up so I doubt it would be much under $400 now and I consider that $400-ish to be the true cost of membership.

With six or seven rounds of golf, generally including a meal each time, plus the odd glove or box of balls at the pro shop most months are pushing $500 but a bill over that is unusual unless I buy merchandise from the pro. I don't think I'd care to be nailed down to that level of expenditure (or more) without getting in those rounds of golf. Does your club have large minimums for several categories?

The one aspect of "club life", at least at my club, that I have to grit my teeth and bear are the nickel-and-dime stuff like dining minimum, a non-optional charge for range balls, a couple dollars per round played and most recently a $15/month cart subsidy if you always walk. I wish they'd just declare the "dues" are $378 or whatever instead of b.s.-ing about it. But it's the same (tough) nut no matter what they call it so I guess it's no big deal...

Brent, my monthly costs are skewed because my wife, Kathleen, is a very active player who plays 3x a week, sometimes 4, but mostly walks until we hit June.  Then she might walk 9 and ride the back.

We both have monthly charges for locker rental, club storage and handicap fee/range use.   We have a monthly food minimum and a $40 / month charge ("house charge") that covers all gratuities.  Between cart rentals and lunches, the occasional drink and dinner maybe once a month, our year around average is probably $900.

But we play 20-25 rounds a a month between us so that's a bargain to play on a quality course with a friendly group.

[Bill_McBride]

Very interesting comments and thoughts.

I should come clean.  I grew up on a small town with a simple 3,000 yards 9 hole golf course that received very little play.  Straight from the car to the first tee and never a wait and 75 minutes rounds always walking.   I was the only kid in junior and senior high who played golf and had the place to myself after school or before or after work in the summer (life-guarding at the "club" pool).  As a result I played 90% of my golf alone with both my thoughts and game.  I had some quick sucess with the game and frankly it was all I had to do - we didn't even have a movie theater in town.  Playing alone became a habit that I carry to this day, and I still look outside the game for social interaction and deeper fellowship, preferring to play golf by myself in the evenings.  Along those lines, it's not unusual for me to not play with other members of The Senior Tour that was  profiled in Golf Digest's Ambush in the course of a year except for our annual trip.   More than anything it is this habit that makes club membership less than ideal.

I would be remiss if I didn't cite the economics as well.  I'm a commercial banker - not an investment banker and while I have no complaints $500/month is a lot of money though in today's world few are willing to admit it.  For the most part I've lost interest in playing the game unless it's in the company of fellow architectural enthusiasts or at a golf course with a de minimis level of architectural interest.   For example I'd trade a month of playing at my club for another round at Aiken Golf Club, much less a more reknowned and celebrated venue.  Golf courses thrill me and always have.  By comparison, the game is old hat, though decidedly more rumpled and faded these days!

Just a few random thoughts.  Thanks for letting me share them.

Kindest regards,

Mike

Hard to argue with that, although I have never particularly liked playing alone and love the competitiveness of a four ball, foursomes or singles match (as long as I get my strokes!).  I too have grown bored with the dogfights at my home course and blame it on the fun of playing in GCA events.

I have a bunch of friends at Pensacola Country Club who play there 3-4-5x a week, always with the same 20 guys, always in a dogfight where it's your foursome or fivesome against two or three others, two or three best balls matching the scorecards.  You never know what the other teams are doing (other than their body language out on the course).  Or how long the putts are being conceded that day.  Yawn.  ZZZZZZZZZZZ.

[Brent Hutto]

I have a bunch of friends at Pensacola Country Club who play there 3-4-5x a week, always with the same 20 guys, always in a dogfight where it's your foursome or fivesome against two or three others, two or three best balls matching the scorecards.  You never know what the other teams are doing (other than their body language out on the course).  Or how long the putts are being conceded that day.  Yawn.  ZZZZZZZZZZZ.

I'm not quite to that point yet...but probably only because I quit playing twice a week in the dogfights a few months ago. I think having those set games is a huge benefit of club play, so I don't want to seem ungrateful. But doing it even twice a week, every week, not to mention the guys who do it every day would be enervating.

The ennui of our dogfights is even moreso because we play gross Stableford points with handicap points/stroke added post hoc. So in other words it's stroke play with a double-bogey limit and full handicaps. Not only do we not see our opponents, it's not even better ball. You just keep your head down and keep a scorecard and hope the guys on your team-for-the-day shoot good scores.

The camaraderie is sufficiently entertaining that it took me a couple years to realize I was basically showing up and playing a round of medal play every Saturday and Sunday and then tossing my score into a random jumble and hoping it came up a winner. Once again, I appreciate having that game on the tee sheet any time I'd like to join in but now that I've got a couple of semi-regular groups to play "real" head-to-head golf with I find my interest level is much higher, my frustration (with my game) level is much lower and I actually play better overall. The joys of match play, all over again.

[Sean_A]

For those that live in Michigan and assuming you still have a job.  This must be about bare bones as it gets without being semi-private.

http://www.golfwestshore.com/index.php?module=htmlpages&func=display&pid=2

Even these prices at Detroit GC seem quite reasonable for a 36 hole facility.  Its quite a nice club.

http://detroitgolfclub.org/Default.aspx?p=DynamicModule&pageid=278624&ssid=152795&vnf=1?ssid=152931

Some news on DGC which is likely hurting more than most clubs in Michigan.

http://www.golf.com/golf/courses_travel/article/0,28136,1957262,00.html

Ciao

[JR Potts]

Can someone out there in GCA land show me a successful, thriving GOLF ONLY (well, minimal food) model that does not try and get you on all the extras, and doesn't insist on cart revenue? USA only BTW.....

Yes, Pine Valley.

[Mac Plumart]

Isn't Golf Club Atlas kind of like a club?  Like minded people gathering with common likes and dislikes?  Discussing the things they have in common, debating passionately points/ideas that very few people in the world care about?  Meeting and gathering multiple times a year to have face time, building relationships, playing golf, and the like?

I think it is, anyway.

I belong to a private golf club in Atlanta and play with friends at their clubs.  It is kind of neat hosting friends one week and then being hosted another.  It adds variety to the game and gives a sense of fellowship to host people at your club for golf, lunch, drinks...whatever.

I also like to travel to play golf...to meet people...to see new things.

It is fun for me.

[Dan Boerger]

Lots of interesting points and thoughts.

I belong to a full service club which works great for us. Family is a big user of the swimming and racquet sports as well as junior golf. I get to play virtually anytime and since it's only 2 miles from the office, I get to practice at lunch.

I can't understand why my game isn't better though!

[Steve Kline]

It would be fascinating to know what % of Golf Club Atlas' 1500 participants are actually dues-paying members of a private club.  I'm thinking it's less than half ... and what does that say about our business?

I'm a dues paying member. I've been a club player since the time I was 8 years old (now 35) with the exception of maybe three years. I really liked the course I played at during my teens years and had a junior membership at after college. I got involved in a fun game on Saturday mornings. The club had no tee times on weekend mornings so your group just showed up. But everyone knew their slot so you rarely waited for the tee. It had a great practice facility too. Then the club wanted to fancy up the clubhouse, which required a large assessment. So my dad and I left along with at least 1/3 of the membership. After a few years without a home course a joined an inexpensive club (the least expensive in Cincinnati - my junior dues are $187/month right now) just a few minutes from my old club. The course is on terrible land (the best was for housing) and has no practice facility. It's not maintained well (trees/bushes have grown into the lines of play, cartpaths are a mess (I walk but it's unsightly), fences are falling down, bunkers are horrible, etc) but we had a really good scratch game for a few years which made it a lot of fun. Now most of those guys have left for various reasons. The course is way too difficult for my wife and son (both beginners). The club is always trying to have some social gathering on friday nights but they have to cancel because no one signs up. The pool is extremely popular and probably why many people join. I looked into joining my old club. They have a an annual membership to attract new members. When my dues go up next year the annual membership  of $5,000 won't be much more than my current club. However, o be a regular member would be $10,000 a year in dues plus assessments. Give me a break! This is nowhere near a top flight club in the city but they want to charge like it. I think over the next 5 to 10 years the club world is going to get blown up by the economy but it doesn't have to be that way if they catered to golfing members first.

[Mike Sweeney]

Can someone out there in GCA land show me a successful, thriving GOLF ONLY (well, minimal food) model that does not try and get you on all the extras, and doesn't insist on cart revenue? USA only BTW.....

Richard,

There are a bunch in New England. Obviously, thriving is a relative term.

Newport CC on the private side - see their 990 at www.guidestar.org. The place has a catering service that brings in food for the day and for big functions.

Wahconah CC in the Berkshires appeared to be doing very well last Friday. New England style semi-private with an awesome front 9 by Stiles and VanKleek, and a very average back side not by Stile and VK. Clubhouse was probably a replacement that was functional.

Cape Arundel - Maine style semi-private. Short season but seems to always be upgrading the course just a little each year. Clubhouse is New England style shabby-cool. Course in my #1 in the 6000 yard category.

[John Keenan]

Bogey

I also like you enjoy playing alone in the evenings. Curious if that might also be a factor in not wanting to join a club.

How many who choose not to join a club also enjoy playing alone? 

John 

[Sean_A]

If I ever move back to the States I would probably give building a club without a course style club a go.  There is a lot to be said for this essentially Scottish model.

http://greenvillegolfingsociety.com/

Ciao

[Mike_Young]

....but the one reason most of the guys my age , in my club, that consider leaving....and it has not been mentioned here.....our kids are of the age they can join as legacies...and a very small percentage of them want to join...and that is a HUGE problem for clubs everywhere....

Very true.  Our dues are only $300, but the minimum monthly bill seems to be $600, even if you avoid the bar.  That's a tough after-tax nut for most young guys getting started in these uncertain times.

Bill,
I'm not saying it is the money with these young people....they only pay half dues until 35 at our place....it is the concept...their generation does not really want to be known as "country club".....
AND i'm not saying I don't lke belonging to a private club either...I'm saying that golf cannot continue to support the other amenities as it has in the past....I don't buy the BS that weddings and parties justify clubhouses....what we have is a situation where these large facilites are there and we don't know how to stop the bleeding in the coming years.  The golf can make it and do well but much of the other stuff is going to reach a point where it is either torn down or banquet rooms become racquet ball courts or bed and breakfast....but food has never and will never make it ......you want proof....shut down the kithen and see how much that affects golf rounds....shut down golf and see how much that affects food served....the model is going to change...

[Steve Kline]

Why eat at my club when there are probably close to a hundred better options that are closer to the theater or wherever my wife and I are going on that rare night out. It is the rare club that as good of food and as good of service as a restaurant. Plus, more people have specialized diets. My wife and I try to always eat vegetarian and prefer to eat vegan when we can. I've never been to a club that had anything good in those categories.

Most people eat the club before or after a round of golf. All that is needed are some good burgers and sandwiches.

[Bill_McBride]

Why eat at my club when there are probably close to a hundred better options that are closer to the theater or wherever my wife and I are going on that rare night out. It is the rare club that as good of food and as good of service as a restaurant. Plus, more people have specialized diets. My wife and I try to always eat vegetarian and prefer to eat vegan when we can. I've never been to a club that had anything good in those categories.

Most people eat the club before or after a round of golf. All that is needed are some good burgers and sandwiches.

There was a time when the country club, particularly in small towns, was known for the best food in town.  Those days seem to be long gone.

[Tim Pitner]

GCA has ruined it for me.  I have a young family so a club would be great, but I live in an area where there are public courses that are superior to the second-tier private clubs and the first-tier clubs are beyond our reasonable financial reach.  The sort of club that would work for me--low-key atmosphere, very good course, affordable--just doesn't exist in my neck of the woods. 

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