Just Not A Club Kinda Guy

[Carl Rogers]

Riverfront has a yearly for $1680.  For that you get to hit all the range balls you want, play all the golf you want (you have to pay $15 for the cart before 2 pm).
My complaints are as follows:
- another $25 for the handicapping service (just throw that in with the yearly and round up to $1700.)
- the short game/chipping green is not maintained well enough to get a true roll out on chips and the two practice bunkers need to be re-built, (I would like to see the problem solved and yes pay for it).
- No real effort is made to even address the slow play problem.  With the degree of difficulty of the course, there needs to be a sign at the pro shop entrance similar to Bethpage Black.
- Bunker maintenance is an issue at Riverfront because only because of their depth and degree of difficulty

Pretty inconsequencial when you think about it.  I am extremely lucky.

The Riverfront Golf Association has the usual range of issues but strikes a pretty good balence between structure, fun and competitiveness, however to solve the slow play problem we tee off first on Saturday's which is 6:57 AM ... a real challenge for me.

[Richard Hetzel]

Can someone out there in GCA land show me a successful, thriving GOLF ONLY (well, minimal food) model that does not try and get you on all the extras, and doesn't insist on cart revenue? USA only BTW.....

Ryan,

Forgive me, and also one that most people can actually join.

[Carl Nichols]

I love being a member of a club.  My wife loves it, my kids love it and my family loves it.  I think of my club like my summer lake house (although it is 13 minutes from my house).  I can play golf early on weekends, have a beer or two with my group and head over the pool to swim with my kids, play with my kids and even play some golf or tennis with them.  In the winters I can head out to the gun club on Fridays and weekends and shoot some skeet, some trap or just hang out and watch football or hoops.  I don't know what I would do without it.

I spend some of my best times there with my dad and a great group of golfing friends.  I get a lot of business from the club as relationships are forged over drinks, golf, dinner or just hanging out.  And, I've made a lot of friends at other local and not-so local clubs through interactions and events with other clubs.

The country club life is a good life for me and my family...but I'm also at a club that is a "family first club"...and I'm grateful to be able to partake.

Ryan's experience is very similar to mine, except for the parts about having a gun club and about getting business through the club.  It's not the best (or even 2nd best) course within a five-mile radius, but my wife grew up going there, my kids are very active in swimming/diving/tennis, it's very family friendly, the course is certainly good enough for me, pace of play is great, and the public options in DC aren't particularly attractive.  It gets expensive in the summer now that my kids know our member number  , but they've temporarily suspended the weekly poker game so that's helping out.   

[Bruce Katona]

Here is what the majority of customers want:
1. good golf course that allows and encourages walking.
2. small CH with the ability to change clothes, take a quick shower and grab a burger and beer after playing.
3. no tee times...just walk up and play
4. somewhat family friendly...pool or no pool.
5. modest dues.
6. no food minimum

This is a tough model to make work:
1. No tees times and minimal wait on the tee during peak times (Friday, saturday, Sunday & Holidays) had to limit the membership to about 225 or less.  Above this number, peak times require a tee time to be made.
2. Walking is ok, but some members or guests enjoy riding.  Allow the customer what they want.
3. Small CH are the way to go.  Food at a club is a break even financial investment at best.  Why do clubs have weddings and outside events?  To try to get the F&B operation to break even at bthe end of the year.  Margins on F&B are 10% when you do everything properly.

4. Pool and tennis are financial losers.  They are used to encourage family memberships so the husband can sell the club to the wife as a "family activity".
5. A large clubhouse and encourages F&B minimums.  Small CH with minimal food and the ability to sell beer will be an operation that has a chance of turning a profit.
6. Modest dues. If the club is run very modestly, you may be able to operate with an annual operating cost at $1,000,000, which translates to $4,000/year or $350/month for 250 members (so we can all get out and play quickly).  Add to that to debt the club has to either build the place or fix it up.  It will cost $100,000 annually to carry and amortize each million of debt so each of our members is resonsible for $400 in debt service annually for each $1 million the club carries in debt.  If the club is older and carries only $4 million in debt each member's share of the annual debt cost is $1,600.  Add that to your $4,000 in dues and you are at $5,00 annually or $500/month.....a bit more than most want to spend.

Golf is a tough financial model to make work.

[Roger Wolfe]

Here is what the majority of customers want:
1. good golf course that allows and encourages walking.
2. small CH with the ability to change clothes, take a quick shower and grab a burger and beer after playing.
3. no tee times...just walk up and play
4. somewhat family friendly...pool or no pool.
5. modest dues.
6. no food minimum

This is a tough model to make work:
1. No tees times and minimal wait on the tee during peak times (Friday, saturday, Sunday & Holidays) had to limit the membership to about 225 or less.  Above this number, peak times require a tee time to be made.
2. Walking is ok, but some members or guests enjoy riding.  Allow the customer what they want.
3. Small CH are the way to go.  Food at a club is a break even financial investment at best.  Why do clubs have weddings and outside events?  To try to get the F&B operation to break even at bthe end of the year.  Margins on F&B are 10% when you do everything properly.

4. Pool and tennis are financial losers.  They are used to encourage family memberships so the husband can sell the club to the wife as a "family activity".
5. A large clubhouse and encourages F&B minimums.  Small CH with minimal food and the ability to sell beer will be an operation that has a chance of turning a profit.
6. Modest dues. If the club is run very modestly, you may be able to operate with an annual operating cost at $1,000,000, which translates to $4,000/year or $350/month for 250 members (so we can all get out and play quickly).  Add to that to debt the club has to either build the place or fix it up.  It will cost $100,000 annually to carry and amortize each million of debt so each of our members is resonsible for $400 in debt service annually for each $1 million the club carries in debt.  If the club is older and carries only $4 million in debt each member's share of the annual debt cost is $1,600.  Add that to your $4,000 in dues and you are at $5,00 annually or $500/month.....a bit more than most want to spend.

Golf is a tough financial model to make work.

Hi Bruce,

Your analysis is right on time.  You cannot sustain a good golf club with 225 members at $350 per month without a sugar
daddy deep pocket owner calling the shots.  Usually if you want great conditions and abundant accessibility you have to
pay for the mcmansion clubhouse and fine dining.  If you settle for less... you get way less.  We are pretty proud of
what we have in CGC.

Our little club in Charlotte is $345 per month (includes $75 in debt service) with about 500 members.  We have a pool and
a golf grille that does a surprising amount of business with a small staff.  We focus on what our members want.  They want
good, inexpensive food and cheap drinks.  They love holiday buffets and lawn parties.  The HAVE to love golf.  Our food min
is $25 per month but includes the snack bar and non-alcohol purchases.  I know everyone hates any kind of food minimum
but it does help properly staff the facility.  Food is costed at 55%.  Liquor and beer at 40%.  All of our pours are doubles.

After 5 years of tinkering and renovation we have a pretty good model.  Our initiation has risen from $8,000 to $22,000 in
five years (and held) but our dues are $100 lower than ANY other club... even the mid-level, "no initiation" clubs.  Our clubhouse
and pool were built in the early 60's but our course and golf course maintenance facilities are state of the art featuring wall to wall
irrigiation coverage.  Maintenance budget is around 800k (not including leases).  Course is generally considered 3rd best in the
city behind Charlotte CC and Quail Hollow.  So far so good.

[Adam Lawrence]

The one thing in Bruce's model that I don't follow is why you can't have a no tee times policy with more than a couple of hundred members. Here in the UK, there are _loads_ of clubs with significantly more members (and visitors too) that don't keep a tee sheet. At my Dad's club in the north of England, they have maybe 400 members, and the only occasion on which you have to reserve a tee time is for a club competition. If you show up at 10.30 on a summer Saturday (albeit that on a fair proportion of such days, there'll be a comp), there might be a bit of a queue. But still, you don't need to reserve, you just put a ball in the dispenser, and have a cup of coffee.

[Richard Choi]

Roger, the club you are describing sounds perfect for me. If there was a club like that within 20 miles, I would join in a heartbeat.

[Jason McNamara]

I also like you enjoy playing alone in the evenings. Curious if that might also be a factor in not wanting to join a club.

How many who choose not to join a club also enjoy playing alone? 

I was lucky enough to join a club where it turned out I could play alone almost any weekday afternoon.  They accepted tee times, but it wasn't an issue except maybe 10 days out of the year.

One Masters Sunday the asst mgr came up to me on the course and asked if I needed anything, because I was literally the only one on the course.  I quickly (and embarrassedly) established the "Please Don't Ever Wait Around Just For Me" guideline.

That's not to say I didn't really enjoy rounds with other members, but having both options was fantastic.

[Sean Leary]

Roger, the club you are describing sounds perfect for me. If there was a club like that within 20 miles, I would join in a heartbeat.

Everett Golf and CC?

[Richard Choi]

31.8 miles...

[Mike Hendren]

Roger, the club you are describing sounds perfect for me. If there was a club like that within 20 miles, I would join in a heartbeat.

Richard, I strongly suggest you join a club with a 100% refundable initiation fee since you may well be asked to resign after sticking a brush tee in the ground at the first hole of your maiden round.  You will at least be able to claim the shortest membership stint at a private club in the history of golf - so you've got that going for you.

Bogey

[Bill_McBride]

No kidding, a brush tee?

[Richard Choi]

If I can tee off at Old Macdonald opening day with a brush tee (9th person to tee off), then I should be able to tee with it anywhere!

[Wade Schueneman]

I live near Athens, Georgia, and there is a very good "country club" in town.  For me, the temptation to join the club goes beyond the course, as I frankly prefer to paly the University of Georgia course (which is obviously public).  My take is that most of the best golfers in town (other than the UGA golf team) play out of that club.  Therefore, if you want to acquire some good golfing buddies, joinging the club is the logical thing to do.  I work with a number of great golfers (all partners at the firm where I am an associate), but I rarely golf with any of them, because they only play at the club.   Regardless of what my income may eventually become, I do not think that I could ever stomach the costs associated with club membership.  While fees around here are relatively reasonable (perhaps just under $500 a month), the math just does not work for me.  I am a young attorney with young kids and am lucky to get 20 rounds in a year.  I can play that much golf for well under $1000 TOTAL on local courses.  I can then take the difference and take two golf trips a year (one short, local trip to Pinehurst or Kiawah, and one week-long longer trip to Bandon or Ireland).  The only problem is that until my sons are older I will continue to struggle to find any local golfing buddies with whom to take such trips.  This is one of the reasons that I am determined to start making some GCA outings soon.  

Query - How many of you belong to clubs that have effectively dealt with the per rounjd cost problem by either 1) deemphaisizing the "country club" aspect  and focusing just on golf or 2) allowing limited visitor access to defray costs.  

[Roger Wolfe]

You can never justify a club by analyzing "per round."  The public club will always win.

What you need to do is calculate your "leisure time enjoyment quotient."  Do you enjoy walking?
Do you enjoy a three hour round?  Do you enjoy being able to spontaneously finish your yard
work early by 4 PM then play eighteen holes from 4:15 to 7:00?  Do you enjoy spending time with
other members as passionate about golf as you are?

A private club enables you 1) play more golf in 2) less time on 3) better conditions with 4) great
folks.  If you can't afford it... just say you can't afford it.  Don't try to justify it with analysis.

 

[JC Jones]

Roger, the club you are describing sounds perfect for me. If there was a club like that within 20 miles, I would join in a heartbeat.

Richard,

The one thing that I can say from my one visit to CGC is that it is better that Roger is making it out to be.  The course is extremely fun and the whole place has a great "golf" vibe. 

Trust me, it pains me to say good things about anything Ed Oden is involved with.

[Sean_A]

You can never justify a club by analyzing "per round."  The public club will always win.

What you need to do is calculate your "leisure time enjoyment quotient."  Do you enjoy walking?
Do you enjoy a three hour round?  Do you enjoy being able to spontaneously finish your yard
work early by 4 PM then play eighteen holes from 4:15 to 7:00?  Do you enjoy spending time with
other members as passionate about golf as you are?

A private club enables you 1) play more golf in 2) less time on 3) better conditions with 4) great
folks.  If you can't afford it... just say you can't afford it.  Don't try to justify it with analysis.

 

Perhaps this is where many US clubs go wrong.  A great many folks in the UK at least part analyse their membership by cost per round.  I can guarantee you that if the cost was anywhere near $100 (seemingly not that high for many clubs) a game there would be far less golf clubs and golfers. 

Ciao

[John_Cullum]

Playing alone became a habit that I carry to this day, and I still look outside the game for social interaction and deeper fellowship, preferring to play golf by myself in the evenings.  Along those lines, it's not unusual for me to not play with other members of The Senior Tour that was  profiled in Golf Digest's Ambush in the course of a year except for our annual trip.   More than anything it is this habit that makes club membership less than ideal.

I very much enjoy carrying my bag around for a few holes in the afternoon. Sometimes 6, often 9, occasionally a few more. It's a great way to unwind from the day, and it allows one to maintain a respectable golf game.

There is one reality Mike, it doesn't happen unless you are a member at a private club.

[Michael Moore]

John Kavanaugh gave us the correct cost-per-round equation in 2008.

"One of the ways I justify paying dues is through the use of opportunity costs.  At $600 per month you can say a club costs $20 per day to golf.  Sitting at my desk right now I have to weigh the options of either working, drinking, gambling, talking to my wife or golfing.  If I choose to golf it only costs me the $20 I have already payed for the right to play today.  If I choose to work, invest time in my marital relationship, or just get drunk and gamble I plan on earning a return far greater than $20.  Therefore my cost per round at a $600 a month private club is only $20 per round no matter how few rounds I play per year."

[Bruce Katona]

Roger & Adam: Work (that dirty word) precluded me from answering yesterday.

Roger: your clubs model works about as well as any I've seen.  Given how the club is run, you should have a few $$$ in the bank for CapEx improvements when you need them.  Most clubs would trade places financially with your's in a NY minute.

Adam: why the magic number of 225 or so members before you need a tee sheet?  Of these 225 members roughly a third to a half will play any given peak time (as they have other activities on a given day), so you need to send off 20-25 foursomes (guest play is generally precluded for peak tee times) for peak play periods.  If the club runs 10 minute tee times, you get these groups out between 7 AM - 10 AM, so they finish by mid-afternoon, so they can spend time with the family.  This is what the customer is looking for here in this part of the US (Northeast).  

Also if your're a member of at a club with 225 others, you really aren't concerned with cost/round played since the economics don't work.  What that customer wants is to "tee off when I want to and not have to wait on the 1st tee".  You get that with a club mebership of 200-225 size.  You may also get an apology from the golf professional upon arrival " Sorry mr. Jones, but you'll have to wait 15 minutes to tee off as Mr. Smith's group is on the tee....can we buy you a soft drink while you wait"?

Once above 225 members, the price point club entry and annual dues are lower, BUT, these members use the golf course more as the dues and fees may be a bit more of a stretch for them, thus the "need to get their money's worth" and play more to amortize their cost/round.

The vast majority of play happens the following times (60%-70% of your weekly member play):
Friday morning &  Friday afternoon
Saturday morning
Sunday morning

Least used times are:

Tuesday  & Thursday PM....that's when I like to play.

[Jerry Kluger]

Roger: I could not agree with you more. Every time I play a public course in the area I am reminded of why I belong to a private club.  By no means is the club upscale but it offers me the opportunity to play more golf at a far quicker pace with people who care as much as I do about the game.  There are certainly many people who play at public courses and feel the same way as I do but they choose to play at the public course and simply accept the compromises they have to make.  To me, life is too short to worry about the immediate cost of something when it can make whatever time we have so much more enjoyable.  Sure, if you are in a financial position where you have to think about whether you can afford to play that day then a private club is not in the picture.  But don't complain about the cost of a club and then take a couple of expensive vacations every year - choices are made and everyone has a right to make their own decision. I am convinced that a private club does not have to equate with snobbery.

[Roger Wolfe]

Perhaps this is where many US clubs go wrong.  A great many folks in the UK at least part analyse their membership by cost per round.  I can guarantee you that if the cost was anywhere near $100 (seemingly not that high for many clubs) a game there would be far less golf clubs and golfers. 

Ciao

You are right Sean.  But the value of $100 is very different depending on your income.  As long as their
are enough folks willing to pay to fill your membership roles, you have a pretty good model.  Before
Wachovia killed Charlotte (August 2008) we were full with 30 on the waiting list and you had to pay
50% of the initiation to get on the list (plus we had been shut down for 10 months!)!  Now we are
in good shape but the crisis (50 fewer members) resulted in unexpected dividends... a less crowded
course and a wonderful "excuse" to scale down the F&B operation.

We were going to breach the magic "$ per round" estimate but reined in the non golf overhead to
actually come in $5 per month cheaper.  $325 plus a $150 per quarter food minimum turned into
$345 plus a $25 per month food minimum.  I personally think we are a better product now than we
were in the boom boom years leading up to 2008.

One of the really interesting byproducts is that we have become a great "in town club" for folks who
have vacation homes and belong to ritzy clubs in the mountains, Pinehurst or at the beach.  The quality
of the golf and the relatively inexpensive monthly bill has made it a great option for those whose $100
is equivalent to my $10.

I am sorry to ramble but I am very proud of our club, our board and our membership for bucking the
national trends and staying true to our mission as a golf club.  The CMAA and the media and the experts
continue to push that clubs need to start moving away from golf and focus on wellness and waterparks
and trying to be everyone to every family.  I heartily disagree.  A country club is nothing without a solid
golf program.  Clubs that lose their focus on golf have forgotten why they exist in the first place.

I am "just not a [country] club kinda guy."  But I will gladly WORK AT or join true GOLFERS' clubs from here on out.

[Bill_McBride]

Perhaps this is where many US clubs go wrong.  A great many folks in the UK at least part analyse their membership by cost per round.  I can guarantee you that if the cost was anywhere near $100 (seemingly not that high for many clubs) a game there would be far less golf clubs and golfers. 

Ciao

You are right Sean.  But the value of $100 is very different depending on your income.  As long as their
are enough folks willing to pay to fill your membership roles, you have a pretty good model.  Before
Wachovia killed Charlotte (August 2008) we were full with 30 on the waiting list and you had to pay
50% of the initiation to get on the list (plus we had been shut down for 10 months!)!  Now we are
in good shape but the crisis (50 fewer members) resulted in unexpected dividends... a less crowded
course and a wonderful "excuse" to scale down the F&B operation.

We were going to breach the magic "$ per round" estimate but reined in the non golf overhead to
actually come in $5 per month cheaper.  $325 plus a $150 per quarter food minimum turned into
$345 plus a $25 per month food minimum.  I personally think we are a better product now than we
were in the boom boom years leading up to 2008.

One of the really interesting byproducts is that we have become a great "in town club" for folks who
have vacation homes and belong to ritzy clubs in the mountains, Pinehurst or at the beach.  The quality
of the golf and the relatively inexpensive monthly bill has made it a great option for those whose $100
is equivalent to my $10.

I am sorry to ramble but I am very proud of our club, our board and our membership for bucking the
national trends and staying true to our mission as a golf club.  The CMAA and the media and the experts
continue to push that clubs need to start moving away from golf and focus on wellness and waterparks
and trying to be everyone to every family.  I heartily disagree.  A country club is nothing without a solid
golf program.  Clubs that lose their focus on golf have forgotten why they exist in the first place.

I am "just not a [country] club kinda guy."  But I will gladly WORK AT or join true GOLFERS' clubs from here on out.

Roger, I am excited about playing at your place in the Dixie Cup!

[JR Potts]

I think American Express sums it up best:  "Membership has its privileges"

[Mike Sweeney]

With the "Private Clubs at a Crossroads" thread going on, - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67257.0.html, I am positioning to join "The Bogey Club", I think.    I no longer pay club dues this season for the first time in years. I hold a handicap at Lido Golf Course, a muni, have a $0.00 annual cost Life Membership at Enniscrone GC, but no club memberships.

Honestly, I love it and may catch the Charles Banks' Francis Byrne GC on the way home tonight if I have time = https://www.essexcountyparks.org/golf/francis-byrne-golf-course. Shout out to Uncle George Bahto - RIP.