[Jason Hines]

Has anyone played Dismal River since the changes?  Have they been significant?

http://www.omaha.com/article/20100624/SPORTS/706249731

[bakerg]

Wow, I am amazed at all the ownership changes at Dismal.  I played the course the first year and thought it was fun and very unique for Nicklaus.  I also did not think it was overly difficult and I am far from scratch.   

[Tim Pitner]

Sorry to cherry-pick but I found this quote pretty humorous:

"The 18th is getting a new green because Nicklaus wants more golfers to experience the hole from a pair of elevated tees, the back one some 50 feet into a sand dune. He and Cochran spent nearly a half-hour discussing how to best relocate the green to incorporate the existing bunkers."

One whole half-hour!  Heck, I can easily spend a half-hour with my family just trying to decide which fast casual restaurant to go to. 

[Steve_Roths]

Thought the same thing.  How many times have we heard stories about Doak or Coore spending weeks trying to decided how something should be ultimately placed or shaped.

Thirty minutes.

[Jed Peters]

I'd say Jack charges more for that 30 than Tom.

But, that's just a guess.

[Tom_Doak]

Actually, I heard that Nicklaus cut his fee 50% for the project, which made him not much more expensive than me.  But, I think he only made three visits during construction.  I have no idea if he's charging for the follow-up work.

When we were building Sebonack, he accused Jim and me of "slow play" for taking so long to decide what to do on some of the holes.

[Jed Peters]

When we were building Sebonack, he accused Jim and me of "slow play" for taking so long to decide what to do on some of the holes.

Slackers.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Grading a decision based on how much time it took to come to a conclusion is stupid.
Some are quick thinkers and others need to mull over every possibility.
Sometimes I think it's not really a matter of how good the decision is as much as how well its supported.

[Peter Pallotta]

I can't add anything except to say that DR was one of the (many) courses and JN was one of the (several) architects I was thinking of when I started the "don't be afraid to tinker" thread.  It's nothing to be embarrassed about, going back to try to make something better.

Peter

[John_Cullum]

"More is lost by indecision than wrong decision"

Carmela Soprano

[Will MacEwen]

Just because they had a 30 minute discussion, doesn't mean it was their only discussion, or that they came to a resolution. 

[Brandon Skopelja]

The new 13th hole is very cool.  I think it will be very well recieved.

[Adam Clayman]

I've heard nothing but good things about the changes and the new ownership.

The original 13th green was as cool as one could get, playing over a ridge to a natural green site. The problem however was with the fairway in the DZ. It was severely sloped making it play as small a target as you can imagine. The second iteration of the hole was not fitting with the remainder, having a peanut shaped flattish green some 60 yards short of the original green.  I look forward to seeing the most recent changes.

I did get some indirect confirmation of Tom Watson's involvement. Not only in reference to another 18, but also, with conceptual changes to the original.

Michael Moore IM'd me a while back and made an astute observation about the entire project. He opined that because of the controversy, DR, from a GCA geek-o-file perspective, is one of the more fascinating studies.

 

[Matt_Ward]

I agree w Adam on the old 13th fairway -- when I played DR it concerned me how the fairway was angled and what happened when balls ran out -- also on the way the second version of the green played it.

I like plenty of things at DR but the issue is because it is so close to SH -- there are people wanting to be much more like the C&C layout. They are not the same but that doesn't mean that DR is utterly useless -- not by any means.

I often wonder how much JN and his team gleaned from the time spent with Doak and his team at Sebonack. Likely, Jack's ego may prevent him from saying he really learned a good deal with his shared effort with Tom and Michael P, but the presentation of a number of the holes at DR is well done and quite a bit different than the pro-forma courses Jack has done.

Glad to see those who have played it originally have kept their minds and ultimate judgements open for change.

I too am eager to see what the new changes have brought to the table.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

Don't give me any of the credit for Dismal River.  It is far, far different than anything I would build.  You could give Jack credit for not wanting to build another course like Ballyneal or Sand Hills, but of course, he has never seen either of them.

Jack did not alter his game to try and play more like Lee Trevino or Tom Watson after they beat him out of a couple of majors; and it was a good thing he didn't.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom:

See my comments forwarded to you offline.

thanks ...

p.s. I think Jack has done some solid work since Sebonack -- whether he's capable in adjusting his design style is a matter of interpretation -- I really enjoyed what he and his team did at Red Ledges in the Park City, UT area.

[Kyle Henderson]

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35966.0/

Some photos from my visit a couple of years ago provide a look at the original 13th shortly after a thunder shower exposed some irrigation lines and the original 18th green site.

[Peter Pallotta]

Admitttedly, I've been a fan of JN's for a long time. He has always struck me as a very straight shooter.  So he says:

"The greens were planted on the terrain and the contours that were there, and the greens were difficult. I figured somebody who came from Omaha, Denver, Minneapolis, wherever, didn’t want to play the same golf course they had at home if they were coming from that distance....So I left it unique.  Evidently, a lot of people came and got turned off by the greens. OK, they’re the ones actually paying the freight.’’

There it is - there is his philosophy and ethos of golf course architecture, in a nutshell and straight-up. In short: I built the course I wanted to build, but not enough people liked it, so I'm back to change it.

I'm curious as to others' thoughts -- Is there anything to criticize here?

Peter  

[Don_Mahaffey]

Peter,
I don't know about your question, is there anything to criticize.
I guess JN is working for the client and the client wants to make a buck or at least pay the light bill so changes are made that the golfers approve of. I guess that's what happens.
But part of me says that is designing to the lowest common denominator and I can't help but think that many of the world's most famous golf holes wouldn't have passed this sort of test, especially today where the customer is always right. Those golfers from Omaha or Denver or wherever would probably be lobbying to move the green on the 16th at Cypress, if the hole wasn't do storied. Same with many of the great holes around the world. I wonder if we can really say how good or bad something is without at least giving a few years to consider the work. Nowadays, if everyone doesn't love it right off the get go then it better be fixed. I happen to think we have many designers who know more than the average traveling golfer, especially the designers who aren't afraid to push, and I hate to think we need to fix everything just because some golfers can't grasp how to navigate a golf hole.
I go back to a thread not long ago about Rock Creek’s greens. Many people I know rave about those greens, but for whatever reason the owners choose to maintain them, at least for their more important events, faster than the designer’s specifications. Should the green’s be soften to appease the fast is better crowd, or should some time pass and hopefully a more intelligent (and practical) maintenance approach will win out? I think the latter and I also think we’re often in too big of a rush to fix things that will soften over time.

[Tom_Doak]

Shivas:

I can assure you that just because we have our routings and plans for our next project complete, neither Bill Coore nor I believes that "the fat lady has sung" there yet.  I have personally seen Bill stare at one little contour for much longer than 30 minutes.

You should refer back to Kye Goalby's interview as to what goes into shaping a green.

[Peter Pallotta]

Don, Dave - thanks.There are a couple of ways to discuss this topic/thread; my question was meant to be one way in/approach. And your answers get right to the heart of that debate, I think; you both make/raise very good points. To be honest, it's a tough debate for me: in my own (former) profession, I could never fully decide whether I should be working for the client or for posterity (for lack of a better word) - and was unable to find a way to 'balance' those two demands to my satisfaction. Which is partly why it's my former profession...

Peter

[Adam Clayman]

Jason,
 I have seen the changes and they are very well done. The greens are fun, and still have plenty of slope, that allow for shot making opportunities beyond just aerial assault.

To clear up a few misnomers. Thankfully, The 18th green has not been moved. There may have been a tee (or two) added, but I can't say that definitively, because I never saw all them to begin with. We did play a tee directly behind the 17th green, which looked newish. It was benched into the hillside and was pretty cool and challenging.

Some of the holes are totally different, in look, mostly because of the green sites alterations. One of the routing issues, I recall initially feeling, has apparently been fixed. I recall that it initially involved zipping around a corner, with the first green within ear shot.   

The 13th has a new green that is not yet in play. It is left of the current green and looks almost table top like. The 13th also has a new fairway LZ, left, which is also in grow in, which might provide a skyline affect to the new green.

The native has been cut down to a playable height, farther out, allowing for recovery, throughout.

Overall, the course was enjoyable to play, the accommodations terrific, food fantastic and the staff was welcoming and friendly. Many are now local Nebraskans. Go figure.

[Eric Smith]

Jason,
 I have seen the changes and they are very well done. The greens are fun, and still have plenty of slope, that allow for shot making opportunities beyond just aerial assault.

To clear up a few misnomers. Thankfully, The 18th green has not been moved. There may have been a tee (or two) added, but I can't say that definitively, because I never saw all them to begin with. We did play a tee directly behind the 17th green, which looked newish. It was benched into the hillside and was pretty cool and challenging.

Some of the holes are totally different, in look, mostly because of the green sites alterations. One of the routing issues, I recall initially feeling, has apparently been fixed. I recall that it initially involved zipping around a corner, with the first green within ear shot.  

The 13th has a new green that is not yet in play. It is left of the current green and looks almost table top like. The 13th also has a new fairway LZ, left, which is also in grow in, which might provide a skyline affect to the new green.

The native has been cut down to a playable height, farther out, allowing for recovery, throughout.

Overall, the course was enjoyable to play, the accommodations terrific, food fantastic and the staff was welcoming and friendly. Many are now local Nebraskans. Go figure.

Adam:

I just got home from the airport -- but I saw your post while waiting for my flight and promised myself I would at the very least post a pic from the trip when I got home.  I hope to have a thread up in a couple of days.  It was a blast, to say the least.

Eric

[Mac Plumart]

Dismal River is awesome.  You heard it here first!!! 

Given I hadn't seen it before this week, I can't comment on what it was like before...but it is really a treat to play now.

Eric, I can't wait for your upcoming thread on the place. 

[Eric Smith]

Me too Mac.  I've got so much to show everyone and so much to say about the place.  It's going to have to be a Sunday evening project to pull it all together. But it will be worth it I promise. 

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()