Would ratings by fixed dollar amount be helpful for most public players ?

[Matt_Ward]

A few people asked me this the other day -- they said the overall ratings list are layered w private clubs -- some of them ultra private where they don't even want their own members!

Then you have the CCFAD crowd of courses -- and all those that cater to those who are willing to pay.

Be curious to know how a ratings list would be received with a top dollar amount to play at $99. In other wirds, no triple digit courses would be listed. The location of the courses would not be adjusted in anyway to reflect differences in locations -- just straight up dollar amount.

Often times there are plenty of people who want to play top quality golf but don't want to play top dollar to do it.

No doubt places like Wild Horse would be listed. In my mind, Black Mesa would easily make it. So would a place like Four Mile Ranch in south central CO. I'm trying to compile a top 50 but would enjoy hearing the comments from others before moving ahead.
I know some mags do list a public course ratings but it's not set by a dollar limit so you can get Pebble Beach and WS listed which are realkly beyond the means for most people -- working people that is.

[Adam Clayman]

It would be great. Might get some lowered green fees at places that are too proud of their product just to make a list. I use to love $50 and under list. $100 is still too high for most regular  people to shell out

[Matt_Ward]

Adam:

Anything under $100 is more realistic -- if one were to go below $50 then major sections of the country would likely be shut out.

Frankly, the overall listings are nothing more than lottery dreams for most mere mortals.

[Peter Pallotta]

Matt - such a list would certainly be worth making, and it would be interesting (for example, to see how much good golf and wonderful design you can have at The Mines for less than $50). But I think it would also highlight (as you got near the bottom half of your list) that top flight golf and design is not often found for less than $100 anymore - and not because a great course can't be built inexpensively, but because most clients aiming to develop a great course have already decided what the green fees will be...and they're not putting any arbitrary ceiling on that figure.
Peter

[John Moore II]

Are we talking peak green fee or fees any time of the year? Because a place like Golden Horseshoe costs like $145 at peak times this time of year, but in the evenings can be had for like $89. Does that count? If so, that course would most certainly be on the list. Same with Pine Needles.

[Matt_Ward]

PPallotta:

$50 is just not reasonable -- as I said before it would eliminate whole sections of the USA because of it.

I don't see a $99 green fee as being too high when you factor in what quality entertainment goes for in 2010.

The big issue I have with the ratings is that too much of it is either strictly private (and in the States that means your blood line may be tapped) or you get the gouge CCFAD types -- PB, WS, and a hoarde of others can be included.

Rustic Canyon certainly opened up many eyes -- ditto what Wild Horse has done -- as well as Black Mesa.

When conversations turn to the mega and ultra private here on GCA you get only a select few who can discuss things intelligently -- but it leave out so many others -- a dollar cut-off eliminates that and bings more people into the mixture.

John:

Here's how I envision it -- the amount would be the top amount at high time.

If a course mandates that you take a cart then the cart costs are also thrown into the picture. No doubt some courses combine the cart cost into the total fee. So be it for them.

The way things are going -- people need a good reason to play and having fees that are within range can do that. I don't see a $99 course of standing being outside the means for many people.

The other dividend is what Adam mentioned -- some of the courses may tailor their costs to make such a listing. I'm not naive to believe many would but some would no doubt do it because they see the benefit in being included.

[Peter Pallotta]

Matt - you misunderstood me. I didn't mean to set a $5O limit; your $99 limit is fine. I meant to say that you can get fine archicture for as little as fifty, and a lot of mediocrity for as much as ninety nine.
By the way, I can think of no one better than you to compile this list. I mean that.
Peter

[John Moore II]

John:

Here's how I envision it -- the amount would be the top amount at high time.

If a course mandates that you take a cart then the cart costs are also thrown into the picture. No doubt some courses combine the cart cost into the total fee. So be it for them.

The way things are going -- people need a good reason to play and having fees that are within range can do that. I don't see a $99 course of standing being outside the means for many people.

The other dividend is what Adam mentioned -- some of the courses may tailor their costs to make such a listing. I'm not naive to believe many would but some would no doubt do it because they see the benefit in being included.

Matt-I think it would be a little better, and bring more clubs into the picture, if you were to use a non-peak rate. Because the course I mentioned earlier, Golden Horseshoe, can be had for as little as $49 during off times. To me, that is a course that deserves mentioning, same with Pine Needles. The key to finding good golf is to try and play during off times, so, in my mind, off peak rates aught to be used, at least partly, with qualifiers that say what the peak rate is. But if you are making the list, certainly you can do what you want.

[Jim Colton]

Golf Digest ranked their 2009 Top 100 public by price on their website.  Here are the ones below $100.

1. (67) Old Works G. Cse., Anaconda, Mont., $50   
T2. (53) Links of North Dakota, Ray, N.D., $60
T2. (42)   Shepherd's Hollow G.C. (2nd/3rd), Clarkston, Mich., $60
4. (69) Lakewood Shores Resort (Gailes), Oscoda, Mich., $65
T5. (59) Black Mesa G.C., La Mesilla, N.M., $67
T5. (78)   Hawktree G.C., Bismarck, N.D., $67   
7. (55)   Quarry Oaks G.C., Ashland, Neb., $73
8. (100)    RTJ Trail at Capitol Hill (Judge), Prattville, Ala., $74
9. (34)   Black Lake G.C., Onaway, Mich., $80
10. (74)   TPC Deere Run, Silvis, Ill., $82
T11. (47) Eagle Eye G.C., East Lansing, Mich., $89
T11. (27) The G.C. at Redlands Mesa, Grand Junction, Colo., $89
T11. (36) The Harvester G.C., Rhodes, Iowa, $89
T11. (72) The Legend at Giants Ridge, Biwabik, Minn., $89
T11. (80) Mattaponi Springs G.C, Ruther Glen, Va., $89
T11. (20) The Quarry at Giants Ridge, Biwabik, Minn., $89
T17. (61) Circling Raven G.C., Worley, Idaho, $95   
T17. (86) Lakota Canyon Ranch G.C., New Castle, Colo., $95
T19. (93) Branson Creek G.C., Hollister, Mo., $99
T19. (98) Longaberger G.C., Nashport, Ohio, $99

[John Moore II]

Golf Digest ranked their 2009 Top 100 public by price on their website.  Here are the ones below $100.

1. (67) Old Works G. Cse., Anaconda, Mont., $50   
T2. (53) Links of North Dakota, Ray, N.D., $60
T2. (42)   Shepherd's Hollow G.C. (2nd/3rd), Clarkston, Mich., $60
4. (69) Lakewood Shores Resort (Gailes), Oscoda, Mich., $65
T5. (59) Black Mesa G.C., La Mesilla, N.M., $67
T5. (78)   Hawktree G.C., Bismarck, N.D., $67   
7. (55)   Quarry Oaks G.C., Ashland, Neb., $73
8. (100)    RTJ Trail at Capitol Hill (Judge), Prattville, Ala., $74
9. (34)   Black Lake G.C., Onaway, Mich., $80
10. (74)   TPC Deere Run, Silvis, Ill., $82
T11. (47) Eagle Eye G.C., East Lansing, Mich., $89
T11. (27) The G.C. at Redlands Mesa, Grand Junction, Colo., $89
T11. (36) The Harvester G.C., Rhodes, Iowa, $89
T11. (72) The Legend at Giants Ridge, Biwabik, Minn., $89
T11. (80) Mattaponi Springs G.C, Ruther Glen, Va., $89
T11. (20) The Quarry at Giants Ridge, Biwabik, Minn., $89
T17. (61) Circling Raven G.C., Worley, Idaho, $95   
T17. (86) Lakota Canyon Ranch G.C., New Castle, Colo., $95
T19. (93) Branson Creek G.C., Hollister, Mo., $99
T19. (98) Longaberger G.C., Nashport, Ohio, $99

I have seen that list. Again, Golden Horseshoe (Gold) which comes in at #32 on that list can be had for as little at $49 and Tobacco Road, which is like #80, can also be had for $49, less than that even if you want to get email offers and such. Like I said before, I think peak rates are not the best numbers to use. After all, both of the courses I listed above have peak fees of over $130. Same goes for Pinehurst #2 even; its around $400 peak for a walk-on, and yet during the off season can be had for as little as $222, including one night's room rent. People just have to be willing to play as less than desirable times.

[Doug Siebert]

Depends on your definition of "less than desireable times".  A twilight rate starting at 4 during the time of year where the sun sets around 7 and play usually takes 4+ hours is pretty worthless unless you don't care that you have to skip the last few holes.  Maybe that's OK at some places if the bargain is good enough, but if Pebble Beach had a deal like that it better be under $100 to get me to skip 17 and 18!  Likewise if The Harvester offers you $1 green fees you still might not want to take them up on it if you have to book in January

What I'm getting at with these ridiculous contrived examples is that I think there are already some "deals" that really aren't really once you think about it, and if a rating of courses under a given dollar figure that takes non-peak rates into account become widely known, some courses would abuse it by putting putting in lowball prices that no right thinking person would consider, just to get themselves under the dollar threshold and make the list.

Its gotta be peak rates.  Maybe some a bit over the threshold would eventually consider dropping their rates to make the list, or those right at the limit would think twice about raising them.  Or perhaps it would be something smaller but still a victory (at least for some of us) and they'd drop the price by not including the cart and making it no longer mandatory.

[Sean_A]

I would like to see more lists where price is taken into account.  Not including price as part of rating losing a lot of its meaning if we actually want golfers to use these lists as a guide.  I have always believed that I am renting a product for the day when I play golf and I don't look at it any differently than anything else I may rent or buy - getting good value is important.  Sure the very best usually cost a bomb, but for a lot less we can still play courses of high character and quality - good enough that nobody should be complain.  I agree with Doug about peak rates.  As a golfer I don't want all the crap about different rates.  I want to know the top amount I can expect to pay and if it is less great.  Just chalk pricey golf along with my crusade against the over-use of bunkers.

Ciao 

[Jonathan Cummings]

Wine Valley - slam dunk.  JC

[Jeff_Brauer]

It seems it has already been done......and with computers able to spit out info in a zillion ways, it won't be hard to do more of this.  It seems as if the big story is still the dream courses most will never play, even if attainable quality courses is what most will end up playing.  It doesn't make sense, but I guess lots of folks love the golf equivalent of Hollywood Glitz.

I'm fine if GD and others simply twist the data different ways to make Turkey Soup out of the ratings they already have.  No need for a completely new list, for sure.

[Matt_Ward]

The $99 max rate would no doubt impact the high profile tourist spots -- much of CA would be impacted (save for the likes of Rustic Canyon and maybe a few others) -- much of NV (especially the Vegas area) and no doubt you can add the Scottsdale corridor as well. The biggest gains would likely come in the midwest sections and in the far corners of the southwest -- New Mexico is a good example. Another bargain state is Colorado which has a number of solid designs that don't require a second mortgage.

I am going to try to put together such a listing.

Last point - I believe peak rates need to be the cut-off amount. Discounts and the like are nice but they are tied to certain times and likely come with other conditions. The peak rate cuts through all that.

[Richard Choi]

I think $100 and under course listing is probably the most useful list for the vast majority of the golfers out there. Most people use golf course ratings to plan their vacations and getaways to see what courses are worth visiting. And most of those vacationers cannot really afford courses over $100. It would also argue for the peak time rates as that is probably when those people take vacations.

[Michael Huber]

I am going to try to put together such a listing.

Last point - I believe peak rates need to be the cut-off amount. Discounts and the like are nice but they are tied to certain times and likely come with other conditions. The peak rate cuts through all that.

Matt, I agree with your peak rates theory.  If a list considers off peak rates, it's somewhat deceptive.  Good luck with the listing-I'll be very interested in seeing it.

[John Moore II]

I am going to try to put together such a listing.

Last point - I believe peak rates need to be the cut-off amount. Discounts and the like are nice but they are tied to certain times and likely come with other conditions. The peak rate cuts through all that.

Matt, I agree with your peak rates theory.  If a list considers off peak rates, it's somewhat deceptive.  Good luck with the listing-I'll be very interested in seeing it.

Perhaps two lists might be good. 50 listed as the best with a peak rate of less than $100 and 50 listed that they can be had in general for a rate less than $100. I might do a little research on this later.

[Matt_Ward]

John:

The problem with a list that provides less than $100 rates at certain times is the general inconsistency of when they are presented and what other conditions are attached. Those seeking to play such places would likely have to reconfirm that such "given" rates are in effect when they actually visit.

I think simply listing the peak rates would give players a clear ceiling on what the charges are.

Gents:

For starters to a listing I would include the following:

Black Mesa
Wild Horse
Rustic Canyon
Lakota Canyon Ranch
Four Mile Rahcn

Five more in my next post ... any suggestions are appreciated ...

[John Moore II]

Matt-Whats the problem with having to confirm a rate? I've played many good golf courses for far below their peak rate (and not even when I was in the business) because I was willing to take a look around and find good rates. I mean, World Woods (Pine Barrens) has a peak weekend rate of $119, but for anyone wanting to play right now, it can be had for $30 during weekday twilight. You tell me what to do about rates. Peak rate lists are just as misleading as doing it my way. Either way, you have to call and get a teetime right? And shouldn't you ask about the rate when you call, just in case it will make or break you playing. Maybe the $99 is from last season and this season they raised it to $109....

[Mike Wagner]

Gold Mountain - Olympic

[Richard Choi]

Matt, Wine Valley and Gold Mountain - Olympic Course are slam dunks for this list when it comes to Washington.  

[John Moore II]

OK, some quick research yielded some good and interesting results.

For non-peak rates:
Bandon Dunes courses: $75 low season
Caledonia: $90 afternoon
Bethpage (Black): $78 weekday twilight, $90 weekend twilight
Tobacco Road: $49 low season
World Woods (Pine Barrens): $30 low season afternoon
Arcadia Bluffs: $75 low season
Golden Horseshoe (Gold): $49 low season afternoon

I'm not sure about you, but that looks to me like a fairly stacked list for those willing to get out in less than perfect weather or later tee times.

[John_Cullum]

Often times there are plenty of people who want to play top quality golf but don't want to play top dollar to do it.

Angels do struggle to get their wings

[Matt_Ward]

John:

People often visit such places during "peak" times. The non-resident rate at Bethpage Black is not under $100 -- it's just over it. I don't include courses that provide a rate structure to just the residents of a given area. The non-resident peak rate is what applies for me.

Look, you can create whatever list you want -- off-peak rates come with a whole host of conditions and often times these conditions will vary so much that a separate asterisk sheet would be needed to explain it all.

If someone sees a course at peak rate at $99 or less -- they know the deal. One other thing -- I include courses where the pay to play golf rate is $99 or less -- this presumes a cart is not mandatory -- should a cart be mandatory and it pushes the rate up beyond $99 the course doesn't get listed.

Gents:

The next five would include ...

*GC at Red Rock (Rapid City, ND)

*Wine Valley (keep in mind the peak rate is below $99 if one doesn't rent a power cart which is not mandatory to play there)

*The Mines (Grand Rapids, MI)

*The Rawls Course (Lubbock, TX)

*The Trophy Club (Lebanon, IN)

Richard:

Thanks for the suggestions !