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Terry Lavin

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Mike Davis Embraces Possible Changes to Pebble Beach
« on: June 23, 2010, 02:49:31 PM »
Geoff Shackelford just posted a great article on the Golf Digest website that includes Mike Davis' thoughts on some of the changes that should be contemplated at Pebble Beach for everyday play AND for the future Open.  Davis is characteristically blunt, at one point calling one aspect of #17 "ridiculous" and stating that nobody at the USGA enjoyed some of the "ping pong" around the 14th green.  It's a good read:

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-tours-news/2010-06/golf-shackelford-usopen-0628
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mike Davis Embraces Possible Changes to Pebble Beach
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2010, 03:11:40 PM »
Geoff Shackelford just posted a great article on the Golf Digest website that includes Mike Davis' thoughts on some of the changes that should be contemplated at Pebble Beach for everyday play AND for the future Open.  Davis is characteristically blunt, at one point calling one aspect of #17 "ridiculous" and stating that nobody at the USGA enjoyed some of the "ping pong" around the 14th green.  It's a good read:

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-tours-news/2010-06/golf-shackelford-usopen-0628


When I played there I didn't notice any ping-pong around 14 and thought 17 was not ridiculous.
In fact, other than the recent shaving on #14, I've never noticed ping-pong around 14 in the At&T(until this year).

but it makes sense that the person responsible for the set-up might try to point finger elsewhere.......
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mike Davis Embraces Possible Changes to Pebble Beach
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2010, 03:37:16 PM »


When I played there I didn't notice any ping-pong around 14 and thought 17 was not ridiculous.
In fact, other than the recent shaving on #14, I've never noticed ping-pong around 14 in the At&T(until this year).

but it makes sense that the person responsible for the set-up might try to point finger elsewhere.......

I shall stand up and applaud this comment - I thought and experieced the same thing as you.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mike Davis Embraces Possible Changes to Pebble Beach
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2010, 03:58:57 PM »
The ping pong was a result of the maintenance presentation along with poor decisions and execution on the part of the player. The contemplated set up alternative, to the left side, would've been long rough, directly adjacent to the putting surface. The result would've been an easy up and down for every player that missed there. And he'd have been criticized for that. Ideally, there would have, or could have, been graduated levels of longer grass on that left side, so the penalty for missing left would've been proportional depending on how, hard and how far left the player missed. The right side likely should've been cut to collar height, or somewhere less than 8 on the stimp meter. Then balls would have had a chance to stay closer to the upper left side depending on each particular ball's speed and trajectory when hit. It's impossible to please everyone.

"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mike Davis Embraces Possible Changes to Pebble Beach
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2010, 04:04:05 PM »
It is indeed impossible to please everybody, but there's no doubt that the USGA can get carried away with the shaved bank chipping area concept.  There are some courses where it doesn't belong and there are some holes where its presence can lead to some ridiculously unfair results.  PB 14 arguably fits into the latter category.  I'm heartened, but not necessarily surprised, that Davis can make these statements so early after the championship, and with such equanimity.  I don't think he's pointing fingers to distract from criticism, but trying to indicate that some of the criticism has a basis in fact.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mike Davis Embraces Possible Changes to Pebble Beach
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2010, 04:13:29 PM »
Terry, Are you aware that the rear of 14, has for the most part, always been a shaved fairgreen?

As for unfair results, we will just have to disagree on that point.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Terry Lavin

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Re: Mike Davis Embraces Possible Changes to Pebble Beach
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2010, 04:19:54 PM »
Terry, Are you aware that the rear of 14, has for the most part, always been a shaved fairgreen?

As for unfair results, we will just have to disagree on that point.

Adam,

Fairness is in the eye of the screwed or the rewarded! 

I do recall that the rear part has always been "fairgreen" as you call it but I don't remember when other changes were made.  I don't know whether an argument can be made that the rear part being maintained this way is fundamentally fairer than the sides, but given the exceedingly small pinnable area and the firmness and speed of the green during the Open, I still think it was indefensibly and arbitrarily unfair during the championship.  To me, I was surprised that they didn't do more to alter the situation before the Open, after what happened to Goydos and others during this year's AT&T, but I'll be shocked if it isn't materially changed to eliminate some of the more comical results.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mike Davis Embraces Possible Changes to Pebble Beach
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2010, 04:20:09 PM »
Adam:
Is there any aspect of the setup at Pebble that you would've changed, had you been setup czar?  I'm not talking about whether or not you like the new bunkers, or whether players should be complaining about something they all had to play, but whether you would've done anything different if you were in charge.  

John Chilver-Stainer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mike Davis Embraces Possible Changes to Pebble Beach
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2010, 04:58:32 PM »
It would be a pity if a knee-jerk reaction to the 14th and 17th unique greens took place. After all they’ve been around as they are a long time - why draw the teeth of an Icon and inevitably “dumb it down”?

These 2 holes were probably the most anticipated by the viewing public to see if the players were up to, not only the skill requirements, but also their strength of character. Would the players freeze up, melt down or breeze through?

Hopefully the USGA display discretion, being the better part of valour, and respect the tradition of Pebble Beach.

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mike Davis Embraces Possible Changes to Pebble Beach
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2010, 05:03:13 PM »
It would be a pity if a knee-jerk reaction to the 14th and 17th unique greens took place. After all they’ve been around as they are a long time - why draw the teeth of an Icon and inevitably “dumb it down”?

These 2 holes were probably the most anticipated by the viewing public to see if the players were up to, not only the skill requirements, but also their strength of character. Would the players freeze up, melt down or breeze through?

Hopefully the USGA display discretion, being the better part of valour, and respect the tradition of Pebble Beach.


What if they were restored to their original design. Would it be OK then?

While I agree and understand that courses evolve over time, I think that these two holes restored to original sizes would benefit the holes.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mike Davis Embraces Possible Changes to Pebble Beach
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2010, 05:06:54 PM »
It would be a pity if a knee-jerk reaction to the 14th and 17th unique greens took place. After all they’ve been around as they are a long time - why draw the teeth of an Icon and inevitably “dumb it down”?

These 2 holes were probably the most anticipated by the viewing public to see if the players were up to, not only the skill requirements, but also their strength of character. Would the players freeze up, melt down or breeze through?

Hopefully the USGA display discretion, being the better part of valour, and respect the tradition of Pebble Beach.



??? ??? ???
The article said the USGA can't do anything about the greens!

It is Arnold Palmer that you have to worry about!
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

John Chilver-Stainer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mike Davis Embraces Possible Changes to Pebble Beach
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2010, 05:24:13 PM »
Thank you Garland - I should have read the article as well  and not just knee-jerked to the name of Mike Davis in the title. :(

However I believe my reasoning is still valid even if Arnold Palmer pays the bills.

Paul Jones

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Re: Mike Davis Embraces Possible Changes to Pebble Beach
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2010, 05:29:09 PM »
Wasn't most of the reason the course played so hard was because of the greens?

I would guess that if the 14th green was not so hard and fast, and it would play (as I would assume it would during normal play) this would not be a topic.  I have only played Pebble once and it was a long time ago.  I remember the greens being small but still soft and not lighting fast.
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mike Davis Embraces Possible Changes to Pebble Beach
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2010, 05:32:16 PM »
You are welcome John.

I know I certainly was highly anticipatory of what G Mac was going to do on 14 after watching the ping-pong matches that occurred there earlier. I think he acquitted himself in champion style.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mike Davis Embraces Possible Changes to Pebble Beach
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2010, 05:38:33 PM »
You are welcome John.

I know I certainly was highly anticipatory of what G Mac was going to do on 14 after watching the ping-pong matches that occurred there earlier. I think he acquitted himself in champion style.


Barely....another couple of inches and that thing was gone...

Matt_Ward

Re: Mike Davis Embraces Possible Changes to Pebble Beach
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2010, 05:41:19 PM »
The player blame game is so far-fetched it's downright laughable.

#14 and #17 were set-up for what actually happened. If anything - hopefully, the next time at PB there will be a bit more sensibility shown.

Terry -- you are spot on -- the USGA pushed the envelope. Case closed.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mike Davis Embraces Possible Changes to Pebble Beach
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2010, 05:43:15 PM »
Carl, You mean other than I detailed above? Which BTW is not what I would do, but feel it's what Mike Davis could've done to lower the criticisms hurled his way.

If I had my druthers I would have given these guys more width, using short grass as a hazard, like on #6, bringing the ocean back into play off the drive . But, especially on 14. That left side when completely shaved could've made for some even bigger train wrecks, completely proportional to how poorly a shot that was hit. Also, I certainly would've given them more fairway on 11, to the left, so they could play the proper angle. But also pay the price for hitting it too far left.

In the end, no matter how it's set up, it's set up the same for every player. So, fairness has nothing to do with it. Bad shots are penalized, as are poor decisions. That's how it should be. There were quite a few examples where bunkers were the smart play, and, even the smarter miss. To me, that's a bit of a pity, reflective of a mindset likely never to be relinquished by the usga. There was even one example where the local caddie knew the best spot, in the rough, behind 14 green where the up and down was easiest. Pebble's greatness is reflected in that story due to how many secrets she holds. Secrets being the idiosyncratic nature, in spots, of how, and where, to play each shot, to ease the next. Whatever I did, I wouldn't be able to take those away from the golf course. But if the wind had blown, at all, it would've been a real tests of these guys heads, not just their skill.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mike Davis Embraces Possible Changes to Pebble Beach
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2010, 06:10:17 PM »
I don't think you can blame the issues at 14 entirely on the course set-up. Remember that in February for the AT&T two guys made 9 there in the final round due to the same issues around that green. If you can't hold it there in February then it's not really just the June USGA course setup that is the issue.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mike Davis Embraces Possible Changes to Pebble Beach
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2010, 10:29:42 PM »
Matthew, I don't think it is so much that you can't hold it there, you can't recover from there when thick rough is involved. If it were all short grass, the up and down would/could be left up to the individual onvhow to play the shot. Bump and run, flop, putt, etc.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mike Davis Embraces Possible Changes to Pebble Beach
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2010, 10:36:48 PM »
Adam,

I think it's a little more than that.  There's the issue of the pinnable space on the green.  I saw one report that estimated 1200 square feet.  So the problem is also that there's too much precision demanded on the shot into the green AND on the recovery shot.  This problem can be exacerbated depending on the lie that the player has on the recovery, but if you miss the shot by a foot, you can find yourself on the other side of the hole in the same situation.  If the best players in the world are having problems with that kind of shot, I think it's fair to say that there may be a problem with the design of the green.  If this were just a quirky green on just about any other seaside links in America, it might not generate a paragraph of controversy.  Since it's Pebble Beach where tournaments and championships are held, as we have seen, it will provoke more than a few contretemps.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

John Moore II

Re: Mike Davis Embraces Possible Changes to Pebble Beach
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2010, 10:39:51 PM »
Geoff Shackelford just posted a great article on the Golf Digest website that includes Mike Davis' thoughts on some of the changes that should be contemplated at Pebble Beach for everyday play AND for the future Open.  Davis is characteristically blunt, at one point calling one aspect of #17 "ridiculous" and stating that nobody at the USGA enjoyed some of the "ping pong" around the 14th green.  It's a good read:

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-tours-news/2010-06/golf-shackelford-usopen-0628


When I played there I didn't notice any ping-pong around 14 and thought 17 was not ridiculous.
In fact, other than the recent shaving on #14, I've never noticed ping-pong around 14 in the At&T(until this year).

but it makes sense that the person responsible for the set-up might try to point finger elsewhere.......

Certainly my thoughts as well. There is nothing that needs to be changed about that golf course that couldn't be fixed by either slightly slower or slightly softer greens.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mike Davis Embraces Possible Changes to Pebble Beach
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2010, 10:47:02 PM »
I appreciate the thoughtfulness of Shackelford's and Davis' analysis/remarks and their willingness to admit that the emperor's clothes are more than a little tattered. Davis' comments on #14 ("ping-pong") and #17 ("almost ridiculous") are especially telling (and very appropriate in my book).     

I do not believe the notion that "everyone plays the same course" is a logical excuse for instances of poor course presentation and/or set-up.

Jim Nugent

Re: Mike Davis Embraces Possible Changes to Pebble Beach
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2010, 01:22:30 AM »
In the article, Geoff says Jack called Pebble the world's most strategic course.  Do (or did) you guys agree with that? 

Phil McDade

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Re: Mike Davis Embraces Possible Changes to Pebble Beach
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2010, 07:46:59 AM »
In the article, Geoff says Jack called Pebble the world's most strategic course.  Do (or did) you guys agree with that? 


Um, no. I think TOC and Augusta National are more strategic (depending, of course, how you define that...) I've always thought of Pebble as quite penal.

Steve Kline

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Re: Mike Davis Embraces Possible Changes to Pebble Beach
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2010, 08:12:53 AM »
I don't see how a course with some of the smallest greens possible and the desire on every second shot is to be short of the hole is the most strategic course in the world. There's far more strategy at a place like Pinehurst - especially with the width being added back to the course. For example on the 6th of #2, where you want to miss the green depends on where the flag is. If it's in the front half you want to miss short right for the easiest up and down while short left is okay but you have a steep hill. If you miss long you have the change of chipping off the front of the green. If the pin is in the back half then you really want to miss long and little left as it is a straight forward chip up the hill. If you miss short with the pin in the back it's very difficult to hit the chip shot hard enough. If you are good bunker player missing left isn't that bad but the bunker is fairly deep. Missing right is my least preferred side to miss on and really bad if the pin is on the right. Every hole at Pinehurst as at least 2 and sometimes 4 different spots you want to miss and/or guard against depending on the pin position. Plus, different angles of attack for different pins. That is strategic golf. In my two rounds at Pebble I found that the line of play is pretty much dictated to you. There is some decision on how far to hit tee shots.

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