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CJ Carder

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Do you keep track of your architects?
« on: June 23, 2010, 03:07:13 AM »
I may be a nerd for doing this, but I have an excel spreadsheet that I use to keep track of all of the golf courses I've played (153 to date in just over 10 years playing).  Recently, I decided I wanted to start keeping track of the architect that designed the course as well.  I thought it might be fun to post my list below in descending order.  What are your thoughts?

Donald Ross   8
Tom Fazio   8
Arnold Palmer   5
Dan Maples   5
Mike Strantz   5
Pete Dye   5
Robert Trent Jones   5
Ed Ault   4
George Cobb   4
Rees Jones   4
Tom Clark   4
Arthur Hills   3
James Braid   3
Old Tom Morris   3
Robert Trent Jones, Jr.   3
Tim Cate   3
Tom Doak   3
Bill Love   2
Clyde Johnston   2
Ellis Maples   2
Gary Player   2
Jack Nicklaus   2
Lindsay Ervin   2
P.B. Dye   2
Rick Jacobson   2
Russell Breeden   2
Tom Jackson   2
William P. Bell   2
Algie Pulley   1
Alister MacKenzie   1
Ault, Clark & Associates   1
Barton Tuck   1
Bob Cupp   1
Bob Lohmann   1
Bobby Weed   1
Brian Silva   1
Buddy Loving   1
Charles Banks   1
Curtis Strange   1
Dave Bingham   1
David Gordon   1
David McLay Kidd   1
Davis Love III   1
Dean Beamon   1
Dennis Griffith   1
Dick Wilson   1
Dr. Michael Hurdzan   1
Fred Couples   1
Fred Findlay   1
Gene Hamm   1
Greg Norman   1
H.S. Colt   1
Hal Louthen   1
Jack Neville   1
Jack Nicklaus Design   1
James McMenamin   1
Jeff Brauer   1
Joe Lee   1
John LaFoy   1
John Van Kleek   1
Ken Tomlinson   1
Lester George   1
Mackenzie Ross   1
McDonald & Sons   1
Mel Graham   1
Nicklaus Group   1
Perry Dye   1
Raymond Floyd   1
Rick Robbins   1
Robert White   1
Thomas Walker   1
Willard Byrd   1
William S. Flynn   1

Michael Taylor

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Re: Do you keep track of your architects?
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2010, 03:42:13 AM »
How do you find out the architect when you play at a council course (I think you call them a 'muni' over there'), since a lot of them are designed by no names or someone from the council?

Do you have a favorite architect of yours?

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Do you keep track of your architects?
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2010, 04:44:14 AM »
Would I be correct in deducing that you've visited Great Britain & Ireland just the once, that the majority of your stay was spent in Scotland and that you visited St.Andrews but didn't play The Old Course?

Probably not...

Seems like an interesting idea but I don't think I have the patience or memory to work it out...

Phil_the_Author

Re: Do you keep track of your architects?
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2010, 05:08:03 AM »
Do you have something against Tilly?  ;D

Tom Jefferson

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Re: Do you keep track of your architects?
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2010, 05:20:30 AM »
CJ..............Algie Pulley? That is certainly an obscure and offbeat designer.  I would hesitate to call him an architect.....possibly to term him a router of courses might be more accurate. 

Which one of his did you play?

Thanks for posting,

Tom
the pres

Mike Cirba

Re: Do you keep track of your architects?
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2010, 07:19:23 AM »
CJ,

In looking at your list, would I be correct in guessing that you live in the lower mid-Atlantic, I'm guessing VA or NC?

I keep track of architectural info, but find so many courses have many architects touch them over time, that it's tough to call them strictly one or the other, so I just keep it all.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Do you keep track of your architects?
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2010, 08:40:47 AM »
No, but I have a secret running total of everyone who has played my courses and offered up critiques............and you don't know when, you don't know where, but someday I will get even with you! ;D
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

jim_lewis

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Re: Do you keep track of your architects?
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2010, 10:00:23 AM »
CJ:

I never knew that Barton Tuck had designed a course. Do you recall which one?

Jim Lewis
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

John Moore II

Re: Do you keep track of your architects?
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2010, 12:02:37 PM »
I do not have a list like this, but that said, seeing one makes me want to go back and make one, much the same as I sat down and counted/listed every course I had played in order to know exactly how many I was up to. Perhaps I will do this tonight and post it tomorrow.

Tom Yost

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Re: Do you keep track of your architects?
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2010, 12:51:36 PM »
 ... What are your thoughts?


Yes, you are a nerd.

(It's ok though... I do the same!)


Wade Whitehead

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Re: Do you keep track of your architects?
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2010, 01:01:57 PM »
In looking at your list, would I be correct in guessing that you live in the lower mid-Atlantic, I'm guessing VA or NC?

After seeing the Mike Strantz, Ellis Maples, and Russell Breeden numbers, I thought the same thing.

WW

Bill Brightly

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Re: Do you keep track of your architects?
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2010, 01:08:00 PM »
CJ,

In this DG you are not a nerd , but I would recommend that you NOT whip out your list on the first tee with your normal golfing buddies :)

Man, you need to get some Macdonalds, Raynors and Tillies on that list!

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do you keep track of your architects?
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2010, 08:33:30 PM »
Yes, sir.  I do it.  I have spreadsheets from here to eternity with goofy golf stuff on them.  My wife just shakes her head everytime she sees me on this site or deep in thought while working on a golf spreadsheet.  I may be a geek, but there are worse vices to have!

Here is my question/problem...

With courses that have gone through major rennovations/changes/overhauls/tweaks...who is the architect?

For instance, Sea Island Seaside.  Nine is/was Colt/Alison, nine was Joe Lee.  Then Fazio re-did the whole thing.  Whose work was I playing?

Seminole...Ross or Dick Wilson.

Anyway, I could go on...but I will spare you as I am sure you get the point.

I guess it is case by case, but still very difficult to figure out.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

JWL

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do you keep track of your architects?
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2010, 08:40:57 PM »
CJ
Just curious as to the names of the courses that you played by
"Nicklaus Group" and Jack Nicklaus Design....which I am assuming is different from the 2 courses you said you played by Jack Nicklaus.
Thanks

CJ Carder

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do you keep track of your architects?
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2010, 09:44:59 PM »
Goodness, had no idea I'd get so many responses and questions to this thread.  Must be an all-time record for me here.   :)  I'll see what I can do to answer.

How do you find out the architect when you play at a council course (I think you call them a 'muni' over there'), since a lot of them are designed by no names or someone from the council?
Do you have a favorite architect of yours?

Most of the courses I was able to uncover the architect either through this group or by looking at the course's website.  For the obscure ones and some of the munis that didn't have any architectural information, I used WorldGolf.com's search engine that most of the time had a decent database.  Google was also my friend.  As for a favorite architect, not really.  I more have favorite individual courses.  I will, however, go out of my way to play some architects over others and also use the architect as part of my decision-making process when visiting new courses.  For example, I play a lot around Myrtle Beach - I'll take a Maples course most of the time over something Tim Cate has done.  I don't mind Cate, but my experience has been his courses all look and play eerily similar.

Would I be correct in deducing that you've visited Great Britain & Ireland just the once, that the majority of your stay was spent in Scotland and that you visited St.Andrews but didn't play The Old Course?

Been to GB&I twice actually but didn't play golf the first time.  We did a 2-week trip to Scotland 3 years ago and played 12 rounds including The Old Course twice.

Do you have something against Tilly?  ;D

Absolutely not... except it'd be nice if he had built more courses where I could gain access.   :)

CJ..............Algie Pulley? That is certainly an obscure and offbeat designer.  I would hesitate to call him an architect.....possibly to term him a router of courses might be more accurate. 

Which one of his did you play?

Royal Virginia, which is north of Richmond, VA about 40 minutes up I-64 towards Charlottesville.  When I first started playing golf in college and we couldn't get out on Birdwood (the UVA course), we'd occasionally head down to Royal Virginia as, at the time, it was a better option than the other muni (Meadowcreek) in Charlottesville.

In looking at your list, would I be correct in guessing that you live in the lower mid-Atlantic, I'm guessing VA or NC?

I keep track of architectural info, but find so many courses have many architects touch them over time, that it's tough to call them strictly one or the other, so I just keep it all.

Mike, you are correct - I'm in Williamsburg, VA.  I agree 100% that it's difficult to keep track of ALL the architects.  I do keep "footnotes" next to my list of renovations / additions, etc but for purposes of this list, it's usually just the original architect (or as close as I can discern).

Just curious as to the names of the courses that you played by
"Nicklaus Group" and Jack Nicklaus Design....which I am assuming is different from the 2 courses you said you played by Jack Nicklaus.
Thanks

Actually, I think the Nicklaus Group and Jack Nicklaus Design should be one in the same.  I had the Jamestown Course at Williamsburg National listed as "Nicklaus Group" while I had the Nicklaus Course at Bay Creek (eastern shore of VA) listed by the "Jack Nicklaus Design."  In all honesty, and this points to the difficulty of keeping this list, who knows what Nicklaus himself was particularly involved in and what he just sent his team out to do.  The two I had listed by "Jack Nicklaus" were Long Bay (Myrtle Beach area) and The National Golf Club (Pinehurst).  My guess is that all 4 of these courses should just be "Nicklaus Design Group" or something along those lines.

In this DG you are not a nerd , but I would recommend that you NOT whip out your list on the first tee with your normal golfing buddies :)

Man, you need to get some Macdonalds, Raynors and Tillies on that list!

Bill, thanks for the kind words and reassuring me I'm not a nerd... here.   :)  And yes, I know I need to get some Macdonalds, Raynors, and Tillies on my list.  Unfortunately, in my area of the country (as a few have already pointed out), there aren't many samples of their work.  Tack on the access issues for courses that are and it does make it a bit difficult.  Alas, I do still have my whole life ahead of me to make my way around the country to visit those that I can.



John Moore II

Re: Do you keep track of your architects?
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2010, 09:56:35 PM »
OK, as promised, my list of architects played, by number.

Donald Ross  8
Gene Hamm  7
Rees Jones   7
Tom Fazio     6
Ellis Maples    6
UNKNOWN DESIGNER   6
Robert Trent Jones  4
George Cobb  4
John LaFoy  3
Russell Burney  3
Nicklaus Design  3 (to include one Jack Nicklaus Signature)
Pete Dye  3
Bob Moore  3
MIKE STRANTZ  2
Arnold Palmer  2
JERRY PATE  2
Michael Gleason  2
Willard Byrd  2
Tom Clark  2
LESTER GEORGE  1  
Johnny Miller  1
Robert Lohmann  1
Neil Haworth  1
William Love  1
Robert Trent Jones Jr.  1
Jerry Turner  1
Frederick Findlay  1
DAN MAPLES  1
Randy Blanton  1
Hale Irwin  1
William Tucker  1
David Graham  1
Tim Cate  1
James Lipe  1
Ron Borsett  1
Dugan Aycock  1
ROY CASE  1
Bob Cupp  1
William Graves  1
Bob Toski  1
TOM DOAK  1
Chuck Smith  1
Marvin Utley  1
Ian Scott Taylor  1
Russell Breeden  1
Bruce Devlin  1
Maurice Brackett  1
David Postlewaite  1
William Langford  1
David Wallace  1
Billy Casper  1
Tom Johnson  1
Chris Bryant  1
Ross Forbes  1
Earl Prevoort  1
Horace Faucett  1
Michael Hurdzan  1

While I have played the work of some of the well known designers, I have played the majority of my rounds on courses designed by regional architects or little known designers. And, what I think is telling about where I played much of my golf in high school, 6 golf courses have no designer listed on Golflink, and in most cases, I didn't go about looking deeper. I might go back, but its really not important, these aren't exactly top of the line courses. I am fairly surprised at the volume of architects I have seen, but some of the individual numbers surprised me. I figured Ross would be at the top of the list because of living in Pinehurst. I did not, however, think Rees Jones would be second. So, that was kind of shocking. Good exercise.

Andy Troeger

Re: Do you keep track of your architects?
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2010, 10:09:43 PM »
Alright guys--its a little silly to call everyone else by the main architect's name and then use "Nicklaus design" or signature or whatever. It's either his work or his firm's, just like everybody else.

I keep a list too...
Jack Nicklaus                 26
Pete Dye                      21
Tom Fazio                    18
Bill Diddel                      17
Tom Weiskopf              10
Jim Engh                       9
Robert Trent Jones, Sr.   9
Jay Morrish                    9
Art Hills                         8
Robert Trent Jones, Jr.   7
Donald Ross                  7
Ken Killian                     7
Dick Nugent                  6
William B. Langford        6

MacKenzie, Coore/Crenshaw, Doak, Ken Dye, Hurdzan all at 5.

John Moore II

Re: Do you keep track of your architects?
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2010, 10:20:54 PM »
Andy-I have to disagree with your comment about Nicklaus. There are some designs by the Nicklaus firm where Jack himself never sees the site at all, he has nothing at all to do with it. Legacy Golf Links in Pinehurst was designed by Jack II, National in Pinehurst is a Nicklaus Signature, meaning Jack himself was the principal designer.  A Nicklaus Design course in Clemmons, NC, Salem Glen was done with Glen Day as the principal designer. So, with Nicklaus Design and even Palmer Design now, there is a very big difference between a Jack Nicklaus Design course and a Nicklaus Design course.

Andy Troeger

Re: Do you keep track of your architects?
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2010, 10:48:13 PM »
John,
The course by Jack II then is by Jack II. I've played one of his courses and credited him separately. In any case, the courses that Jack has designed should be his name and not have design after it. You wouldn't say that Sebonack was designed by Nicklaus Design and Tom Doak would you? Chris Cochran did Cougar Canyon as part of Nicklaus design and I have his name on that one plus Nicklaus.

Do you know that he never sees the site or are you just assuming that because he's not always the principal designer? I don't know whether Jack did anything at Cougar Canyon or not, but I do like the golf course in any case.

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do you keep track of your architects?
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2010, 04:48:36 AM »
I may be a nerd for doing this, but I have an excel spreadsheet that I use to keep track of all of the golf courses I've played (153 to date in just over 10 years playing).  Recently, I decided I wanted to start keeping track of the architect that designed the course as well.  I thought it might be fun to post my list below in descending order.  What are your thoughts?

...
James McMenamin   1
...


CJ,

I'm curious; who is James McMenamin and what course did he design?

Dónal.

Cory Lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do you keep track of your architects?
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2010, 06:29:12 AM »
In looking at your list, would I be correct in guessing that you live in the lower mid-Atlantic, I'm guessing VA or NC?

Good point Mike, you can always tell the Mid-Atlantic guys by the number of Ed Ault, Brian Ault, Tom Clark, Bill Love, or Ault,Clark & Associates designs.  I have 21 Ed Ault, 16 Ault,Clark..., 5 Brian Ault, 7 Bill Love, 5 Tom Clark designs.
Instagram: @2000golfcourses
http://2000golfcourses.blogspot.com

Mike Cirba

Re: Do you keep track of your architects?
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2010, 06:34:33 AM »
Cory,

Throw in a few Russell Breeden's and Gene Hamm's and it's a dead giveaway!  ;)

CJ Carder

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Re: Do you keep track of your architects?
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2010, 08:08:05 AM »
CJ,

I'm curious; who is James McMenamin and what course did he design?

Dónal.

He was credited with the design of one of our 3 private clubs here on the peninsula in Virginia, the James River Country Club.  http://www.jamesrivercountryclub.com/

The odd thing is, for a club that maintains such a good record of it's history (they have an extensive golf museum in their clubhouse), their website makes no mention of the actual course designer - only the "founding fathers."

CJ

Evan Fleisher

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Re: Do you keep track of your architects?
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2010, 11:27:49 AM »
I do not have a list like this, but that said, seeing one makes me want to go back and make one, much the same as I sat down and counted/listed every course I had played in order to know exactly how many I was up to. Perhaps I will do this tonight and post it tomorrow.

I've done the same exact thing in order to "manage" my logo ball collection...one from every course I've ever played since 1978 (when I started playing at age 10).  i'm up to 327 courses, and I also keep track of the states/countries i'v eplayed in as well as the architects.

Being an anal-retentive engineer has its advantages (and pitfalls)  8) ::)
Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 13.2. Have 26 & 23 year old girls and wife of 29 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

John Moore II

Re: Do you keep track of your architects?
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2010, 11:40:31 AM »
Cory,

Throw in a few Russell Breeden's and Gene Hamm's and it's a dead giveaway!  ;)

Hey now, I resemble that remark.  ;)