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TEPaul

Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #50 on: February 20, 2002, 04:35:01 AM »
Dunlop:

The bunkering has certainly been "redesigned" on that hole. The one rear bunker redesigned and turned into a few and the "lines" of the front one changed, made much smoother. Can't imagine why they would change the basic bunker "lines". Maintenance might let those edges get to look like the originals too.

But the real significant change to me is the lose of a very cool and significant "kick up" all across the back of that green! A wonderful (and rare today) green feature where "hot" shots can run up and run back (or get up in the rear bunker). The "kick-up" was a compensating design feature used in the rear of greens with the ground game approach shot fronts--generally on long holes. We have one  at Gulph Mills we're restoring--Donald Ross green though.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #51 on: February 20, 2002, 05:37:30 AM »
I wonder if that 'kick up' feature might now lie off a shrucken green surface.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #52 on: February 20, 2002, 05:58:29 AM »
The old "kick-up" is everything that's behind the green surface most of which is now in "rough" grass--that was once greenspace. You can even see that it appears the shape of the old "kick-up" has been softened as well, probably with the redesign of that back bunker. Look how high the "shoulder" in the middle of it used to be (in the old photo) and just imagine how a ball might run back to either side depending on how it ran up that old "kick-up" (greenspace).

All that is great stuff--exciting playabilities (that combined with the ground game) and something that could be considered an addition option--always a good thing, additional option and increased playabilities.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Kelly_Blake_Moran

Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #53 on: February 20, 2002, 01:28:00 PM »
Dunlop,

People like you can carry a different message back to clubs and members.  It takes people of your insight to combat the fad of the day.  
 
I have given your report, Anatomy of a Restoration, a cursory look, and plan to sit and study, but it seems to be awe inspiring.  The message is incredible, and the pictures actually changed my breathing, the contrasts were amazing.  I must admit I would like to print it and give it to every client prior to opening of their course.  We do a plan that is called a Play Corridor Plan that shows the boundaries within which no trees or certain shrubs will ever be acceptable for planting.  The corridor boundaries are based upon maintenance considerations, and strategy, I provide a lot of space to play the route of your choice so trees are a nemesis to my designs if placed within these play corridors, although sometimes I leave a specimen or two within these areas but the design of the strategy takes this into account.  I also provide write ups as a part of a strategy book I produce for the course and it discusses this issue, but in no way remotely close to the detail you have produced.  Is it possible to attain a copy of your report to distribute to clients?  I would appreciate any consideration of my request, and would respect any conditions.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #54 on: February 22, 2002, 11:07:07 PM »
Your many points are evident! Yes, the "kick-up" was eliminated and the front-right portion of the green was raised as a consequence of "softening" the contours. And yes, there is an awkward drop-off from the rear bunker to the green today. As you can observe from original photo, the bunker and trap once blended and connected without the elevated collar and incline between.

John Lafoy, who renovated our bunkers in 1992, can be as much to blame as Cupp. Who knows? Lafoy's bunkers varied in style throughout the course, while Cupps bunkers had a consistent style, but just not Perry Maxwells.

But lets stray a little away from "playability", and focus instead on "look". Not only were Maxwell's bunkers concave with the leaning edge flashed, but more significantly, they appeared so "natural". There were no clean edges and bluestems were left growing throughout.

Check out Cuscowilla, Sand Hills, East Hampton Golf Club and Chechessee, Maxwell's old bunkers appear very similar to the bunkers Jeff Bradley currently does for Bill Coore today. Moreover, check out the bunkers at Maxwell's Prairie Dunes, they continue to appear "natural" as well.


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #55 on: February 23, 2002, 01:35:18 AM »
Dunlop:

As you're aware, I'm sure, there's probably a very good reason Jeff Bradley's bunkering resembles Perry Maxwell--that would be that Coore and Crenshaw and I believe other members of the company just love almost everything about Perry Maxwell's work.

I'm sure that as much of that has to do with Bill's college and early experiences with Old Town itself as it does with Ben's  experiences with Maxwell's in the Midwest--maybe the same for some of "The Boys".

The decisions to hire the architects that were hired to do work at Old Town in the 1990s is very understandable. But unfortunately it does point out a ongoing misperception that most golf clubs have and that is that any architect can and will do the same work that the club is envisioning or hoping for--that any architect will solve a particular problem in the same way, in other words.

The truth is that if you have a really good Perry Maxwell golf course despite connections to other architects the best policy may have been to do some research to find out who might be the best available to do work on a Perry Maxwell course. Unfortunately, there's no doubt in my mind that was Coore & Crenshaw.

But what's done is done--so don't worry about it!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #56 on: February 24, 2002, 07:57:05 PM »
What architect, besides Coore, would you hire to restore a "Maxwell" design? Or is Coore such a given, that you would look no further? On the other hand, what architect would you hire to restore "any" classic course, regardless of its maker? Are your choices different?

Assuming other architects, such as Doak, Forse, Hanse, or Pritchard (etc.) are not as familiar with Perry Maxwell(as Coore), coundn't they still do a nice job with a Maxwell design, given their successes at other courses coupled with their ability to revive the classic elements, looks, and playing characteristics inherent in golden age architecture as a whole?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #57 on: February 24, 2002, 08:46:25 PM »
This thread is very long, but so much is very well written, I hesitate to chime in here.  But briefly, I had to make comment about the picture of OTC 5th posted above.  When I looked at it, I instantly recalled the same look to the 6th green at Crystal Downs, but in mirror image.  The middle of that green with its roll seems to me identical.  I will e-mail Mr White a picture, in case he hasn't seen CD #6.  

As to the question of who you would hire to restore a Maxwell green, I would say that BunkerHill work that I have seen at Wild Horse by Axeland and Proctor seems to have some striking resemblance to Maxwell rolls.  In particular the bunkerless greens of 6 and 10 and the rolls within the greens at several 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 11, and 15.  As for bunker work that looks like the 1939 picture, is seems to be their specialty.  

One thing about the idea of restoration of such complex greens is whether one renovates the greens root zone - drainage structure or restores with the same native soil or ammended native and sand composition as originally utilized.  I think that is a big question for a modern attempt at restoration.  Perhaps restoration as a term answers this however, if we agree it is recreating it in every possible detail.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

TEPaul

Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #58 on: February 25, 2002, 06:54:28 AM »
Dunlop:

First of all, I congratulate you on an excellent topic here that has been developed well and from which an awful lot of good and helpful information has been provided for other courses and other people that may go through what Old Town did.

But as to your last question of who else to hire other than Bill Coore, I think it might be necessary to answer that by backing up again and looking at how the whole Old Town process started with their greens in the first place.

Firstly, you said previous to architectural work by Cupp the greens suffered from "sogginess". The reason I mention this again is presumably this was the only problem that motivated the club to consider green restoration. Was that the only problem or consideration though? Did the decision makers or the membership also want putting surfaces that were faster? If that too was true, for whatever reason, that's another and separate problem for any architect to solve and the point again is that different architects might solve either problem in vastly different ways, or at the very least they might recommend different solutions.

And that is very much where Old Town and this discussion about someone like Bill Coore, or some other architect should probably start. As far as I'm concerned Bill Coore truly is an expert with all that is Perry Maxwell. How did he come to be that? He himself has said that much of it began with Old Town itself, and particularly the uniqueness of Old Town's greens!! And from there he has probably intricately studied everything else of Perry Maxwell that's left today.

We know that the outfit, Coore & Crenshaw are extremely interested in Maxwell's style, particularly his green style and do much of it in their own new construction work. So much so, in fact, that the entire outfit, including all "The Boys" seem into it too. Did "The Boys" learn this from Coore or Ben Crenshaw or did Ben and Bill learn it from some of "The Boys" like Axeland and Proctor? Who knows, we'd have to ask them, but we do know they're all fascinated by the style and very good at understanding and probably recreating it.

So if I had a Maxwell course and certainly one that was some of the best of Maxwell I would do the necessary research to come to a certain conclusion of who was the most knowlegeable and best at Maxwell. To me, it's quite obvious that wouldn't take long to lead to Coore and Crenshaw!

Again, the way your club arrived at the architect to use is a very common one--it was basically a matter of who knew whom the best. It may also have been based on an assumption, one I mentioned earlier, that's very common in this type of process, that any architect will solve the problem the way you think it can be solved or even in the same way as any other architect will solve it. Then it just comes down to who's available and at what price and process.

To me these are assumptions that should not be made or made so easily! Early assumptions like this that don't involve analyzing every aspect of a problem are dangerous assumptions to me.

But to get back to what Old Town really wanted and thought they needed to solve--sogginess or increased greenspeed that would require green contour softening. I think it's quite obvious that had Bill Coore been hired or consulted he would have tried to convince the club to solve whatever problems they had or thought they had without recontouring the greens. If the only problem really was "sogginess" there are obviously a number of remediations that may have solved that problem and left the Maxwell contours intact. But if speed was the issue that presents other problems and ones that are more difficult to solve. Certainly one partial solution would be to expand the greens back to original sizes (which apparently was done, right?). Another would be analyzing the maximum speed for what they were originally. That may take some slowing down of greenspeeds or more logically simply not speeding them up past the speed of their overall functionality.

So although Bill Coore would seem to be the best at Maxwell greens he may have been offering advice and possibly solutions that Old Town did not really want to hear! Ultimately this probably was the case. Should the club have listened to him anyway? Yes I believe they should have! As you and I discussed, certain "playabilities" may have been lost or altered with the Cupp green work. Do the members even notice this? Do they like what Cupp did as much or better than what the greens used to be or even what Coore may have done? Only you can answer that, not me!

Frankly, I do not believe Bill Coore was really looking to be hired by Old Town. Had Old Town asked him though, I think he surely would have responded!

I think what he was doing was trying to prevent the greens  from being altered or softened, period--and only because he was fascinated by them. Could he have solve the "sogginess" problem? Of course he could have. Could he have solved the problem of how to make them play with faster speeds through the use of something like A4? I doubt he could and I think his recommendation and solution to that would have been not to do it. Obviously that might have been something the club just didn't want to hear and doing something to make the greens faster with something like A4 is probably not something Coore would have gotten involved in even if Old Town asked him to.

Personally, from the look of that one photo you posted, that original green with its interesting "kick up" looked really fantastic to me. That's the kind of thing that Old Town should look into restoring! And while they're in and around those greens maybe they might look into restoring the look and shape of some of those Maxwell bunkers too.

I hope nothing I'm saying sounds critical of Old Town because I don't mean it to be. What they were looking for and what they did is very understandable--but in retrospect (which is always so easy) I think Coore and Crenshaw were the ones for Old Town!

Just to show you how good Coore is with Maxwell, a few years ago I rode him around Gulph Mills on the fly. We have four Maxwell greens and he picked them out without any doubt or hesitation at all. He'd never seen our course before and had no idea who had been there architecturally--but he just picked out those Maxwell greens on the fly! That was very impressive to me, and that's how the entire subject of Perry Maxwell began to be discussed by Bill Coore and me!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #59 on: February 25, 2002, 10:17:10 AM »
Tom,

Thank you for your expertise and your many contributions to this thread which Mr. Clouser started last week. Obviously, you answered the question: familiarity with the original architect is the most influencial factor in selecting one to perform restoration endeavors at a course in your opinion.

Perhaps you did not read reply # 37 of this thread which described the conditions of our greens in detail. Simply put, Pat O'Brien of the S/E Section of the USGA, recommended green reconstruction to USGA specs, and Bob Cupp and Billy Fuller, in particular, who had alot of experience with the transformation of push-up greens, agreed. Our problems were twofold:

1. Sub-Surface drainage problems. Little, if any, percolation existed.

2. Thus, our inability to control dampness caused damaged Penncross root zones and promoted encroachments of foreign grasses, such as Poa and original Commonbermuda.

Thus, we were given three choices:

1. Fumigation and Reseeding - which would not eliminate the drainage problems, and foreign grasses, especially bermuda, would likely return.

2. Aerification and Top-dressing Benge-would improve over time but would not eliminate the drainage problems.

3. Reconstruction to USGA Requirements

Faster green speeds, to my knowledge, were never a "goal" of ours. Instead, faster green speeds were a "consequence" of the agronomic situation of having to reconstruct our greens with a more dominant bentgrass.

The decision appears to have been rationaly made upon the recommendations and research of an agronomist and an architect.

Perhaps, Coore should have been consulted!! We know he would have taken greater measures to save Maxwell's original contours. But then again, since he admittedly stated, he was not privy to the agronomic conditions, perhaps he would have reconstructed our greens as well?

Mr. Daley,

Thanks for the green photos of Mackenzie's (and Maxwell's) Crystal Downs. The undulations in our greens are in fact very similar to those at Crystal Downs. Great observation!

However, the pictures reveal that Crystal Down's contours appear slightly more "subtle", but at the same time more "intricate" in movement. Old Town's contours are strikingly bold!

Many Thanks!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #60 on: February 25, 2002, 10:44:55 AM »
Dunlop;

The problems you'all faced originally on your greens (before redoing them)--problems of drainage, sogginess etc and how to solve those problems and still maintain your original Maxwell internal contours are just beyond me. I just don't know enough about those things and possible remedial actions.

Obviously you had good advice but I'm a little surprised with the decision to go to USGA spec greens---but just a little surprised not a lot.

That very subject of Old Town's greens may have led to my conversation about USGA spec greens vs push-up greens between Bill Coore and me--I just can't really remember now if that was it.

He did say that push-ups were always the way he would try to go only because that method is so much easier to build in the complex little or large internal green contours that are characteristic of Maxwell. With USGA spec greens it's possible to do it but much harder and obviously more expensive just because of the difficulty of matching properly the surface and subsurface layers that are more characteristic of USGA spec greens. They do have to be matched well apparently or even a USGA spec green might develop drainage problems.

But he did say to do pushup greens having a basically sand base area is most helpful and also that the decision to go push-up or USGA spec is one he would always want to leave to the decision of the super because he's the one left to maintain them and if push-ups were used and failed then he would be the one to take the heat.

But if Maxwell did pushups once it would seem that they could be done again--but who knows--maybe not. If the natural subsurfaces and subsoils never really were the best condition for pushups at Old Town that could have been the reason the drainage ultimately failed and maybe even the subsoils just might have plain worn out under the greens--that can happen and certainly that may be something that Bill Coore never knew!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

O'Hara

Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #61 on: March 03, 2002, 08:40:57 AM »
This course is more fun to play because you never have the same shot twice no matter how many times you play. The fairways, and particularly the greens, tumble so, it is difficult to ever lose interest.

The greens are still pretty fascinating although they are much larger than I remember!

The bunkers are a true hazard! Why? I cannot explain. The flashes do not appear steep enough or maybe the sand simply washes down. I think it has to do with their type of sand being too consistent in particle or grain. Maybe the sand is new and requires settling. Whatever the reason, many balls plug! Also, the balls which enter the traps do not tend to roll to the bottoms. Balls uncharacteristically come to rest where ever they enter, occasionally in the midst of the flash or in close proximity to the edges guarded by thick grass.

Old Town must make analysis of how to help the playabilty of their bunkers.  :'(

Mr. White is correct in that too many small, young trees are all over the course. I am glad that they are attacking this issue though.

It is a real pleasure to play Old Town. I am sure their ratings will improve!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JosephJ

Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #62 on: March 11, 2002, 08:08:19 AM »
I would love to see some more original photos of your Maxwell bunkers. From the photo comparisons above, it appears that your bunkers have entirely changed in look, playablity and character? Is it a priority to RESTORE your bunkers?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #63 on: March 11, 2002, 10:55:51 PM »



Above is a photo of some Maxwell bunkers around Hole 14 green at Old Town Club in their original state in 1939.



Above is a current photo of the bunkers around Hole 14 green at Old Town Club in 2001 taken from approximately the same angle.

Compare and Contrast?

At first glance, the use of different grasses distinguishes today's bunkers from the originals and further portrays just how far we have strayed from their initial character. Native fescues, whether you call it prairie grass, blue stems or Scottish broom, surrounded Maxwell's original bunkers. These were the type of grasses which were seeded into classic designs. Maxwell and his contemporaries simply did not have the variety of grasses available to us today. The character of the course was centered around the look, the "natural" look, of these wispy fescues.
Today, puffy, zoysia bermudagrass has been sodded into the lips and shoulders of our bunkers. Besides having a manufactured look, this grass affects playability in that it swallows up balls otherwise headed into the bunkers. Bunkers were intended to be played from. There is no reason we should buffer or protect them with puffy zoysia. It originally served as a buffer to protect our greens from foreign grass encroachments, but it has had the side effect of protecting our bunkers from roaming golf balls just as well.
Secondly, maintenance practices distinguish between today's bunkers and the originals. Notice the rugged, weathered look of Maxwells' bunkers. Notice the jagged edges which are naturally integrated into the surrounds. Today, the bunkers maintain a rounded and upholstered look. The edges are well defined, cleanly cut and manicured. These are the ingredients for today's generic bunker style, the very type of which was foreign to Perry Maxwell. Consequently, they have lost their natural character, their style, and their shapes.

Will we ever restore our bunkers? Good question! Probably not in the near future! Our membership would not prefer that our bunkers look or play like our originals. Why? I have been arguing for too long now that the major obstacle to Restorations everywhere is the typical "perceptions" of memberships. Old Town is no exception! Like many other clubs with unsophisticated and/or uneducated golfing memberships, rounded bunkers with clean manicured edges and upholstered grasses with smooth textures are perceived as the desired norm, the standards by which all courses are judged. Most golfer's tastes and perceptions have been influenced in such a way by magazines, TV, and the media which portray these conditions as the architectural model. Any deviation from these Augusta-like elements would simply not be approved. How well do you think wispy fescues and the weathered, rugged look would go over as the desired medium? To them, it would be like making them watch television in back and white. The irony here is that our club successfully endeavors in creating a distinct sense of place and tradition. Our ambience is that of an "old" club. In fact, Old is our club's name. We maintain an antiquated, rustic sensibility. Our club house is understated, we utilize stones for tee markers, the same stone relic motif that was utilized for our many bridges on the course and the walls around the golf shop. In such a setting, our crisp bunkers appear out of place. There is simply no juxtaposition between our bunkers and the rest of the premises. Yet, if we revived Maxwell's old bunkers which would naturally integrate with the surrounds at Old Town, then likely our membership would be unhappy.

We could restore the "playabilty" aspects by simply mowing down the zoysia grass surrounding the bunkers so that balls could freely enter. We could also simulate the classic "look" by limiting the amount of water the zoysia receives. With our new multi-row irrigation system, the heads could certainly be adjusted to limit bunker waterings. It would be unlikely that the zoysia here would turn as yellow as fescue surroundings; however, it should certainly turn a different shade as to create some "contrast" necessary to capture the classic look.

And yes, I do notice the tree growth present behind the green. These trees serve as a backdrop assisting the golfer with points of reference and depth containment on approach. Removing these trees could in fact create a void or an ambiguous skyline to visualize on approach. This nothingness makes the golfer have to trust his senses of distance, touch, and perception in arriving at the green. This is the type of look that golfers became accustomed to negotiating with on classic designs, and there is no place on our course which effectuates this look any better, especially since the green is above eye level. Perhaps our tree removal plan will soon include these.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #64 on: March 12, 2002, 03:28:28 AM »
what remains of the bunkers at P Maxwell's other great courses, PD and SH ? I sure like the rugged natural look, without the trees in back. Seems that the concept of "deception" is one of the features most lost since the "golden age" now all one hears is the the hole must be framed. Nothing makes for more fun than a short to mid iron that is hard to trust, ie looks like 170 but is in fact 145.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #65 on: March 12, 2002, 03:54:44 AM »
Dunlop:

None of us could compare and contrast as well as you just did. Wonderful write-up.

Have you tried the discreet dropping of the remark; 'It's not a good idea to put chrome on a classic automobile' (like a Maxwell or a Rolls Royce--ie; Maxwell/Rolls) in the right ears?

Doak once made the remark on here that in many cases it probably isn't worth restoring some older courses (supposedly he does not believe it would be worth it), but it seems very clear that Old Town G.C. is not one of those.

For those that really know and love interesting classic architecture it seems Perry Maxwell might be held in almost as high regard as anyone, and Old Town is one of his most interesting works. Certainly Coore believes that to be true.

I found with our membership that trying to sell them on specific changes that they view as needlessly returning to a time of less good agronomy and playing conditions is a very hard sell. The best way to proceed, in my opinion, is to persuade the membership first that they really do have a Rembrandt in their attic in a general sense--and then proceed from there with the details if and when you have convinced enough of them of that general fact!

When a membership starts to feel that way about their course, even without specific restoration knowledge or understanding, you have given them what it takes to eventually proceed in a detailed way. And what it takes first is a real pride in the original golf course and in Perry Maxwell--I don't think it's as hard to instill that general pride as you might at first think, even despite what you said about their reaction to certain things in your post!

How well to you think the effort to instill a general pride in the original course and in Perry Maxwell amongst the membership has been attempted?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #66 on: March 12, 2002, 04:04:11 AM »
Dunlop
Tremendous analysis, the detail of your analysis is truly impressive. And sharing the realities of the typical club member'a taste and the fact most prefer the clean look is also informative. I'd guess that you and I and many who prefer the more original natural look are a fairly small minority. From many of the comments I read on GCA, I'd guess we are a minority on this site or at least it is split 50/50. It is amazing how influencial TV is on contemporary tastes in golf architecture.

Brad
For a long time I thought Maxwell's bunkering was pretty mundane and not one of his strengths - I think largely from what I had seen at Southern Hills. But after playing Prarie Dunes whoes bunkering is nothing like SH I began to wonder. I then saw some old photos of Old Town and SH, and realized that my perception were very wrong. He really had his own distinct style that was far from boring - I'd say that PD is the closest to original.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #67 on: March 12, 2002, 04:06:08 AM »
I believe there are two books due out soon, 1. Perry Maxwell's Prairie Dunes, done with the help of the club by a local retired sports writer, JM Elliott, supposed to have both b&w and newer photos, and a book in planning? by GCA's own Chris Clouser? to be published by SBP. Both might help raise the stature of PM.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris_Clouser

Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #68 on: March 12, 2002, 04:14:59 AM »
I thought I would post just get something clear.  I am working on a book about Maxwell, but thus far I have not submitted anything to a publisher but will do so shortly.  

Dunlop,

I would post a couple of pics, but could you possibly show us a couple of shots of a hole so we can do a comparison of before and after.  Perhaps the 7th? :)  Maybe we should start a new thread for that one though.

Chris
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »

JosephJ

Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #69 on: March 12, 2002, 08:58:29 AM »
Much appreciated! I think we can all learn a great deal from your photos and especially your commentary. It often becomes too difficult to understand classic applications without the (original versus current) pictures. Plus, your descriptions are so personal and informed.

I second Clouser's request for #7 at The Old Town G. C.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #70 on: March 13, 2002, 03:40:50 PM »
Hole 7 at Old Town Club!


 
Above is an original view taken from just right of the tee of Hole 7 at OTC in 1939.




Above is a current view taken from approximately the same position of Hole 7 at OTC in 2002.

Any comments on the evolution of this hole? I will respond shortly!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #71 on: March 13, 2002, 07:25:55 PM »
Dunlop:

That's a most unusual looking fairway and fairway bunkering arrangement. Could you explain how that tee shot plays for a variety of golfing levels today?

I much prefer the way the old fairway was larger, particularly out to the left of the bunker arrangement (both before and past it) and the way the bunkers just sat within the old fairway without all that rough surrounding them as it does today.

Interesting tree and placement in the old photo! The hole sure needed the old fairway width for that though.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #72 on: March 13, 2002, 07:55:00 PM »
Dunlop
That hole reminds me of the 5th at Crystal Downs - the bunkering scheme is similar, the width and the tree in the fairway (although I think the tree at CD was a later addition). You've lost quite a bit of width and choice off the tee - the tree was dominate factor. And it looks like you've lost quite a few bunkers down by the green. Is this a par-5? Based on the slope and the arrangement of the bunkers down by the green, maybe driving down the leftside was the way to go.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris_Clouser

Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #73 on: March 14, 2002, 04:40:16 AM »
The drive to clear the bunkers in the 200 yard range and the hole is a par 4.  Notice how the options to the right are almost eliminated due to the lack of width on that side, but the bunker way out to the right was eliminated as well.  It also appears the slope of the fairway has been changed to be less drastic.  Is this the case or is that just an optical illusion?  The similarities between Old Town and CD are all over the place.  This hole is not a dogleg as the 5th at CD is.  The 5th at CD almost strikes me as an Alps style of hole.  I would almost think the layout of this hole would be similar in nature to the 6th at CD only with the bunkering flip-flopped, but maybe I am stretching it on that.  The pin location on this hole though dictated the strategy depending on which side it was on as the green has a large hump in it.  If the pin is left of the hump, anything right would be dead and almost a sure bogey and vice versa.  Correct me if I'm wrong on this Dunlop, but the old hole provided many more options from the tee and the right choices would depend on where the pin was located that day.  But now the option to go down the right side is very perilous as there isn't the room to go that direction.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #74 on: March 14, 2002, 06:09:05 AM »
Dunlop;

Thanks again for the two photos of hole #7 (old and new). The more one looks at them the more obvious it is that hole #7 is a great "case study" in the ramifications of the evolution of both architecture and maintenance practices into the "modern age".

It's clear to see that the overall impact of that evolution is to "center direct" things and consequently to damp down strategic choices or at least "narrow" them substantially into the center and to make them probably much less meaningful and effective.

The tree itself in the center of the old photo (although some may not like trees used that way) is obviously the "centerpiece" and "lynch-pin" of the strategy of the old hole. In other words, it absolutely forced all players to make a very distinct decision on the tee to go right or left of it (going over it may have been a rare option in 1939 for only very big hitters  but a very limited option).

Taking the tree away made the overall width of the fairway much less necessary at first and may have been one reason the hole was narrowed (even in the mind of an architect).

But if you know, I would be interested to know if Old Town had a comprehensive fairway irrigation system in 1939. If it did not it would better explain the maintained width of the old fairway. If after 1939 a single row irrigation system was added to the course that may be the reason the fairway was brought into its present configuration (all the fairways actually) as the widths would have been tailored to the "irrigation reach" which may have been the most comprehensive reason why so many of the fairways of the classic courses were narrowed down to about 30+yds and also brought into a sort of standard conformity throughout the nation.

Also, obviously that's an old maintenance or construction road to the right of the old hole, right?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »