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Chris_Clouser

The Old Town Club
« on: February 12, 2002, 07:30:06 AM »
Does anyone have any information regarding this course in Winston-Salem, North Carolina?  Please e-mail if you do.

Thanks
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2002, 07:36:08 AM »
Paging Dunlop White III....

Jim Lewis may know this course as well.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

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Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2002, 07:47:46 AM »
I don't know why I didn't think of this, Chris, but have you checked out the Bill Coore interview on this site?
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/interviewcoore.html

He knows it real well, except for the re-done greens.  If you can get a hold of him here, you'll be in business: http://www.bencrenshaw.com/candc.html
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris_Clouser

Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2002, 08:16:43 AM »
I have e-mailed regarding talking with Mr. Coore, but haven't received any information.  Yet...:)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ChrisB (Guest)

Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2002, 09:03:48 AM »
The Old Town Club is my favorite course in North Carolina (not the best, but for me the most fun to play), and I don't think very many people really know about it because the club is so private.  It is one of only 3 Perry Maxwell desings in the state (Reynolds Park and Starmount Forest are the others, although SF bears no resemblance to Maxwell's original design).  It is routed well across pretty hilly terrain, so that the fairways have an interesting mix of contours, and there is good variety to the holes and shots required.  I liked that the 3rd hole finishes at the parking lot by the clubhouse, so that one could play a quick 3 holes if they didn't have time for 9.  But what makes the course are the greens, which for me are the most interesting set of greens that I've seen in the state; when I've played there, they have been firm and fast and full of all sorts of bumps, hollows, slopes, etc. (you should see the 10th green--tiny and shaped like a sunny-side-up egg; tough to get it close with a short club from the sidehill/downhill slope).  I don't know how much the greens resemble Maxwell's originals, but they've got to be close.  Nice clubhouse, good atmosphere, #1 and #10 tees right by the clubhouse and putting green, good conditioning, a fun experience.  Too bad they're so ultra-private...I'd play there every day if I could.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

jim_lewis

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Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2002, 10:07:39 AM »
ChrisC:

Dunlop White can tell you anything you want to know about Old Town, and I am sure he will respond to your post as soon as he sees it. I played the course last fall and found it to be pretty much as ChrisB described it.

ChrisB:
I am interested in your comment that Starmount Forest does not resemble the original Maxwell design. Have you seen it since the restoration by Lester George? I played it a few months ago and was very impressed. The folks there insisted that Lester's restoration was faithful to Maxwell's design, especially the greens and bunkers. Since I never played the original course and don't claim to be a Maxwell expert, I took their word for it. Do you have evidence to the contrary? If so, please share.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

ChrisB (Guest)

Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2002, 04:20:43 PM »
Jim,
I too enjoyed playing Starmount Forest and was impressed with the renovation/restoration; the condition of the course is excellent, the greens are all fairly interesting, and bunkers are well-placed.  But I challenge anyone to identify a single Maxwell feature on the course.

From what I understand, the routing of Starmount Forest is the same as when Maxwell designed it in 1929, although there must certainly be more tree encroachment (especially on holes like #4 and #13, and perhaps #6 and #18 as well) now than then.  Aerial photos and other pictures in the clubhouse (from the '40s and '50s I believe) show that some bunkers have been removed or moved and those that remain are shaped differently now than then.  The best I can describe it is that the bunker shapes were more "basic" with smooth lines as opposed to today's curly-Q shapes.  Of course, it is difficult to tell much about the greens from aerial shots, but if today's greens are an attempt to get back to Maxwell's original plans, then they are some of the tamest Mexwell greens I have seen; they seem too smoothed out to be Maxwell's, although there are a few bold contours here and there.  George Cobb did a redesign in 1972 and maybe that's when things were changed.

Ideally, we could ask someone like Sam Snead, who won at least a few of his 8 Greater Greensboro Opens at SF; if we could take him out to SF today (and hoping that he could remember) I wonder what he would say?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2002, 05:47:16 PM »
I've never seen Old Town, but I've heard nice thing about it--at least from some time ago. But this is the way the story I heard goes about the course from Bill Coore's perspective. He played lots of golf there years ago! Bill is from Carolina, I think.

A few years ago apparently Old Town decided to go to one of the newer "super grasses" on their greens and that apparently required the redesign or basic "softening" of all of Perry Maxwell's original greens that Coore loved. This was very alarming to him and actually inspired him to write the club a letter sincerely asking that they not do that. But they did it and it may have been a bit like driving a stake through Coore's heart.

It's my understanding he has not been back to Old Town since the green work--it very well may be too painful!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2002, 11:38:28 PM »
Below is a brief architectural history of Perry Maxwell's Old Town Club!

Part I

Mary Reynolds Babcock, of the RJ Reynolds Tobacco family, helped found Old Town Club in Winston-Salem, North Carolina and built both the golf course and the clubhouse on the land that she owned. Her husband, Charlie Babcock, was an investor and business associate with Clifford Roberts. In 1937 and 1938, Clifford Roberts hired golf architect, Perry Maxwell, to supervise the reconstruction of the green sites on Hole 10 and Hole 7 at the Augusta National Golf Club. Evidently, Hole 10 had a drainage problem as it was originally located in a low lying area, and Roberts, Bobby Jones and Horton Smith desired additional length on both these holes for tournament play. Roberts was pleased with these changes at Augusta and consequently recommended that Charlie Babcock commission Perry Maxwell to come to Winston-Salem and design the course for his friend at Old Town Club. Construction commenced in December of 1938. Roberts actually accompanied Maxwell and Babcock in the latter stages of the construction process and encouraged the owner and the architect to merge the adjacent green sites at Hole 8 and Hole 17. If for no other reason, Roberts claimed," a double green would make for interesting bar room discussions". It still does today!

In November of 1939, the Perry Maxwell design was complete, and Old Town Club opened for play. Guy Paulsen was hired as the first head professional. Paulsen was a nationally renowned professional and received the highest recommendation from Bobby Jones and Clifford Roberts, with whom he served as associate professional at the Augusta National.

A North Carolina Newspaper introduced its opening with the following quote:

               "Its planners believe that it will immediately take rank as one of the South's three great courses and as one of the nation's ten best. Some courses are noted for their wide, long fairways, others for their hazardous or tricky traps, still others for their greens. The Old Town links course will have them all"

Perry Maxwell was even quoted in the July 20, 1939 edition of the Winston-Salem Journal. Here, Perry Maxwell described the Old Town links course "as one of the seven finest in the nation". This is quite a compliment considering that Maxwell had previously spent a few years working in conjunction with Alister Mackenzie on many other great courses, including Crystal Downs (1933). At this time he had already designed Southern Hills (1935), and nine holes at Prairie Dunes (1937). He was further hired as a consultant and redesigned existing features at many other renowned courses, including Augusta National (1938-1939), Pine Valley, National Golf Links, and Maidstone(no dates). Thus, Perry Maxwell had seen some of the best and still gave Old Town this high billing.

At Old Town, Maxwell utilized core-routing in his design. Hole 1 and Hole 10 tees begin within feet of the understated clubhouse, and Hole 9 and 18 greens finish in close proximity as well. Plus, there are no intermittent crossroads or residential housing within.

Maxwell's affiliation with Mackenzie likely prompted his interest in creating severely undulated greens with steep swales and bold contours. These undulations have become known as "Maxwell rolls", and they were certainly incorporated at Old Town!!!! Old Town manifests some of the most interesting green complexes that I have seen!! I seriously doubt that there is a straight putt on the course whereas you may have a half of dozen putts in a single round which slide laterally 10 to 12 feet. A golfer must use his imagination and be very creative when negotiating with these greens. Thus, depending on pin locations, certain sides of the green are much more desirable than others. Whereas most of the country today is so preoccupied with length, Old Town defends par by emphasizing the short game, especially when firm. These greens serve as evidence.

Just as the greens are severely undulated, so is the entire golf course. It was brilliant how Maxwell routed the course over such hilly terrain. Nothing was sacrificed. All hills, inclines, swales and ravines were utilized. No hole appears man-made or artificial. The rolling topography was left in its natural state. Maxwell states:

"It is my theory that nature must precede the architect, in the laying out of links. It is futile to attempt the transformation of wholly inadequate acres into an adequate course. Invariably the result is the inauguration of an earthquake. The site of the golf course should be already there, not brought there…Many an acre of magnificent land has been utterly destroyed by the steam shovel throwing up billows of earth…"

Due to his routing over the untouched, natural terrain, the golfer encounters many variations of stance and lies when playing Old Town. Most landing areas are amidst some degree of incline. A golfer simply is not required to hit from downhill lies or sidehill positions. Instead a combination of lies, such as downhill/sidehills, is typical for an approach shot. The course is a shot-maker's dream and the mechanical golfer's nightmare.  ;D;D

Continued on next "post"!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2002, 11:41:54 PM »
Part II (continued from previous post)

The course measures almost 6700 yards from the back markers and is a par 70. Old Town maintains four sets of tees. The par 3's vary in direction, and more importantly, vary in distance. The four par 3's measure respectively: 168 yards, 185 yards, 195 yards and 215 yards. The par 4's are diverse as well. Although there are five par 4's which all measure approximately 385 yards, they actually "play" at different lengths because of the roll or lack thereof initiated by the slopes and grades of the landing areas. We have two par 5's. While one is reachable in two, the other simply is not, as it measures close to 600 yards with a creek buffering the green.

Our membership is very small and our golfing membership is even smaller. We do not have tee times or other similar restrictions or requirements. Unfortunately, the majority of our membership favors Old Town's anonymity. In The Confidential Guide, Tom Doak gives Old Town a "7" on his 1-10 scale. Doak states, "be forewarned that this is the type of club that wants you to have permission from the Board of Governors just to take a walk around…. Worth seeing just for the greens if they will let you on the property". Although Doak's green description is accurate, he had to have been exaggerating about the other. Doak further ranks Old Town in his Gazette among the Top 10 "Courses Worth Groveling To Play" in the country, along with Cypress, San Francisco G.C., Seminole, Augusta, and Fishers Island. Tom can play with me at any time. In fact, we have a more engaging membership than he described.

To the best of my knowledge, Old Town went virtually unaltered until the 1990's. I fortunately just discovered an aerial photograph of Old Town in 1940, merely a few months after its opening. I wish it had been discovered long before now!! It reveals the typical evolution of a classic design. Fairway widths have been arbitrarily reduced over the years. There were also a few merging fairways which have been separated and defined. Many new trees have been planted by well-intentioned greens chairmen, some of which are strategically improper, others of which encroach slightly on play, and yet others which block sweeping views of the course. Furthermore, about eight bunkers have been covered-up or abandoned, the typical ones which memberships believe are unnecessary or out of play. Frankly, I was surprised at how much that today's course resembled the original, considering the wholesale butchering that has occurred at other classic designs across the country.

In 1996 however, Bob Cupp was hired to come in and "restore" our greens. At the time, our greens were soft, spongy and lacked proper sub-surface drainage.The root zones on our Penncross bentgrass greens were naturally impaired because of our inability to control internal moisture.  This moisture attracted foreign grasses, such as poa and common bermuda, which thrived throughout our greens. I don't know all the agronomic details, but Cupp and Fuller, and Pat O'Brien, of the USGA, recommended the implementation of "Crenshaw" grass on reconstructed fillpads designed to USGA modern specs., which we chose. However, with this much faster grass, he insisted that we "soften" the contours as well. Thus, while we were at it, we expanded the greens to their original sizes. Only a 1951 aerial photograph was available at that time.

The final result indicates that we have pretty accurately "restored" the sizes of our greens to their original shapes. However, even though the contours of our greens are very similar, they are certainly not identicle, and they unfortunately do not seem to flow quite like before.

The most glaring difference involves the front edges of some of our greens. While "softening" our greens to accommodate a faster playing surface, it appears that a few of our green fronts were raised. This is typical as architects must either take away feet at the high locations or add feet at the lower locations to create a more level playing surface. Apparently, Cupp chose the latter method. The only problem is that it has had a significant effect on playability, as run -ups are presently unavailable. The approaches absolutely should have been graded out some 50 to 75 feet in order to tie in the contours caused by raised green fronts.

All in all, our green restoration was a success as 99% of the membership is happy with the results.

I had a telephone conversation last week with Bill Coore. He told me that he last visited Old Town in 1994. He said he was disappointed in the bunker renovations, but was absolutely enamored with our green complexes. He stated that they were the greatest set of intact greens in the country, and the fact they were intact Maxwell greens made them more unique and special. None were more original. Although he admitted that he was not privy to the agronomic situation, he diplomatically contended … as advanced as laser topography is today at emulating green contours, duplicating the originals is almost impossible. Evidently, it has a low success rate. He repeatedly tells Ben (Crenshaw) that he should had seen these greens. I encouraged him to visit Old Town again when in the area. I hope he takes me up on my offer for I would love for him to see the new product. I do not think he would be that disappointed.

Today, Old Town is in the process of upgrading irrigation to a multi-row system. We are also upgrading our turfgrass from commonbermuba to a pure hybrid, called Tifsport. We intend to restore some of our original fairway widths, and Mac Crouch, our super Super who we "stole" from Augusta Country Club, is already underway with a tree removal program.

I am going along with the initiative to add length on a couple of the longer holes although I don't full-heartedly agree. Technology has made a difference, but I think if we maintained extremely "firm" conditions, then we could hypothetically move all our tees forward, instead of back, on every hole and defend par just as well.

Jim Ferree, long time touring professional, is another excellent source of information. Old Town Club was his home course while his late father, Purvis Ferree, the first person inducted into the North Carolina Golf Hall of Fame, was the head professional at Old Town from the late 1940's until the mid 1960's. Old Town Club has also been the home of the Wake Forest Golf Team for many years. Therefore, Curtis Strange, Lanny Watkins, Jay Haas, Scott Hoch, Billy Andrade, even Darren Clark etc. may be able to contribute other perspectives about the club and/or the course.

I hope this answers all of your questions! I feel as if I have been too brief; however, I just realized that I have been typing for almost two hours now.

Thanks for your interest in Old Town!

Dunlop



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »

Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2002, 11:49:23 PM »
Tom:

I cannot believe that you are so familiar with the relationship Bill Coore has had with Old Town Club? Coore is quite a gentleman and was obviously fond of our greens. But to know that, as far as you are displaced from North Carolina, is absolutely amazing to me.

Any questions I may have in the future are coming your way!!

Dunlop

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2002, 12:03:19 AM »
Mr. Clouser:

Best of luck with your Maxwell book.

I am glad someone has decided to publish a book about Maxwell. It is about time! There is simply not enough information available today on this significant architect. I am surprised that his contributions to golf architecture are not discussed more often.

I apologize about our club not being too receptive to your inquiries. We are working on it, especially with raters.

If I can be of any further assistance, please give me a shout.

Dunlop
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2002, 03:40:06 AM »
Dunlop:

What a wonderful couple of posts on Old Town. Those are the kind that just make this website, in my opinion. Comprehensive and directed wholly at architecture and its interesting and sometimes odd evolution.

Firstly, I now feel quite ashamed of myself for making that post about Bill Coore and Old Town. I've never been to Old Town--actually I have many years ago with one Smith Bagley--son of Nancy Reynolds, but it had nothing to do with golf and it took me until now to make the connection and we did not play golf or even look at the golf course.

But Bill Coore is indeed a gentleman and he is diplomatic and would not appreciate, I'm sure, that post of mine and what I said about his feeling about the recent green work.

What he said to me was frankly far more indirect, and was not directed at Old Town, per se! We did discuss Old Town's greens once, but only in a very general context of a long and ongoing discussion of green construction, playability, new grass use and a number of other things to do with another project and the all encompassing subject of greens. I apologize to Bill and to Old Town for making that post. I'm glad Bill Coore also claims not to know how to turn on a computer and see that post.

But the both of us (and Crenshaw) clearly have a fascination with Maxwell greens! It's my feeling, from what I've seen to date, that Maxwell, at his best, may very well have been the best green designer and builder ever! His greens, at their best are not only extremely interesting and challenging to play but there's a subtlety or sophistication to the best of them I have simply never seen the equal of anywhere--actually not even close, in my opinion.

There's a true beauty to playing them even if you're actually not studying them. Then there's more of a beauty to them when you study them. But the real key to me is how well most all of the best of them seem to fit in or belong so well where he put them!

In an interesting way that probably makes them less noticeable, which if you think about it is actually what the best designers were trying to utlimately do--to make the entire art and creation sort of blend in to the nature of the preconstruction site! It's obvious to me now where Bill Coore was coming from with Old Town's original greens. They very well may have been the best he'd ever known of what must be his favorite green builder!

I'm also happy that the Old Town members are content with the "restoration" and "softening" to the tune of 99% approval.

However, it is always a dilemma on this site to wish to say things that are of interest and at the same time to take care not to violate some confidence or put someone in an uncomfortable situation!

But with that said, Dunlop, the golf course and everything you describe about it seems almost to fit the ideal of what the "profile" Golfclubatlaser might consider perfection! Wait until Tom MacWood sees the description of how Maxwell dedicatedly used almost all the natural aspects of a undeniably great site for golf without disturbing or corrupting those natural aspects!

But the green "restoration" may very well be a case study in so-called "restoration" or "redesign" work and even where the terms may blur. It's my hope that this site can discuss and analyze that green restoration work at Old Town, as again, it seems to be a case study in even thinking of altering really wonderful greens, for any reason--and certainly to do with the reason of more speed! The fact that you say the reason to do the greens was only "sponginess" makes it even more interesting. That could be an example of doing something else in the process of correcting a somewhat unrelated problem!

It may even be made a more perfect case study by the fact that the original Maxwell greens may very well have been some of the most extraordinary greens found anywhere, at anytime. And in that context I now understand the concern of a man like Bill Coore who clearly has always been completely enamored by Maxwell greens and his fascination obviously began at Old Town--he did play on the Wake golf team, by the way!

How you described the exact methods used to "soften" those greens is also extremely interesting and I can see where some problems definitely arise in the mind of the "purist". You have admitted that their "flow" has noticeable changed as well as the approach "playabilities" as a result of the raising of  green fronts to compensate for the higher contours elsewhere. In my opinion, those are the types of things that should have been THOUROUGHLY explained by the architect to the decision makers if not the entire membership prior to "restoration" work or even planning agreement!

It's a most interesting subject and one I hope we can discuss in more detail on this discussion group, if possible.

I would again caution all of us (included myself after the Coore remark) that if we do discuss it to try to discuss the architecture and not to get petty and personal with the Old Town golf club or its membership simply for making a decision you might end up not agreeing with!

I'm fascinated by the date of the opening of Old Town and well as some of the dates of other Maxwell work--right in the heart or even latter stages of the depression, in other words.

Some say Maxwell got far more work than any other architect in the depression probably due to his connections to midwestern oil money--which was obviously not hurt so badly in the depression. It would appear that the same was true for tobacco interests in the depression as well--America may very well have smoked even more in those years!?!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris_Clouser

Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2002, 05:14:01 AM »
Dunlop,

Thank you so much for the wonderful write up on the course.  I e-mailed you yesterday, as I would like to ask some other questions of you offline.  So if you can reply that would be wonderful.  I have talked or e-mailed several people in the last few days about Old Town specifically, so this is a great addition to my notes.  I obviously am trying to concentrate on the more notable works like Southern Hills, Dornick and PD, while also doing some heavy work on other courses like Crystal Downs, Augusta, Colonial and Pine Valley.  But there seems to be a very strong next level of courses that Maxwell worked on and Old Town is very solidly in this less publicized group if not in the top of this group.  Anyway, please e-mail me back and we can discuss the course and Maxwell some more.

Thanks again,

Chris
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2002, 05:45:25 AM »
Terrific thread guys.  This is what GCA is all about.

Bob
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bryan_Pennington

Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2002, 07:34:07 AM »
Dunlop,

Given your extensive knowledge of Winston-Salem, do you know of anyother courses (either in the area or not) that were created as a result of the Reynolds Family (or related RJR Families).  Having ties to Winston-Salem from my Mom's family, I was curious if other significant courses were created from the "Reynold's Monies".  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris_Clouser

Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2002, 07:41:08 AM »
The Forsyth Club was originally the club the Reynolds family built in the area that Old Town split off from.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bronco

Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2002, 07:43:17 AM »
Chris
I may have some info on PD and So Hills, if you need.
I also heard PD is publishing a new course history for the '02 Women's.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2002, 07:52:29 AM »
Tanglewood Park's two courses were funded by the Reynolds', I believe.  The Championship course hosts the Senior Tour Vantage Championship, and the 1974 PGA Championship.  Though I think the Vantage may have been cancelled.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2002, 05:51:53 PM »
I heard that the vantage was supposed to have found another sponser.  Just heard word of mouth nothing official.

Starmount Forest was originally an Maxwell design as well and what does everyone think of the rework there?

Who did Forsythe?  And anyone who has played it, what are your thoughts on Forsythe?

I see someone mentioned Reynolds Park as a Maxwell design.  Where is that at in NC?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2002, 09:59:56 PM »
Tanglewood

RJ Reynolds brother, William Neal Reynolds, bought 1000+ acres outside Winston-Salem, NC in the early part of the 1900's to raise horses. In 1951, Reynolds willed this property to the county (Forsyth) for recreational use. This property is known as Tanglewood Park.

Tanglewood maintains two golf course, Tanglewood (West) and Tanglewood (East).

Tanglewood (West), site of the 1974 PGA Championship and prior home of the Vantage Championship, was designed by my favorite  ::) Robert Trent Jones, Sr. in 1957. Later, Robert Trent Jones drastically renovated the course by adding 50+ bunkers. Alot of length was added, the 9's were even reversed, and a couple of par 5's have even been changed to par 4's despite the additional yardage.

In 1965, Jones designed Tanglewood (East) as well. The back nine here contains many of the most awkward holes in golf!!

Both courses do provide up-scale recreational golf for the City of Winston-Salem/Forsyth County area; however, by no means are they a case study in architecture. Just my opinion though.
I do believe that the West course is a great site for a senior event though. Because RJ Reynolds has dedicated its sponsorships to NASCAR, the 2001 Vantage Championship was supposed to be the last at Tanglewood. Unfortunately, this tournament was cancelled due to the 9/11 terrorists attacks. Thereafter, tournament officials announced that the final tournament will instead be in September of 2002. Thus, the final tournament was simply postponed. The final event though will take on a new name: The RJ Reynolds Championship.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris_Clouser

Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2002, 04:39:39 AM »
Turboe

Reynolds Park is in Winston-Salem.  I believe it is a public course as well.  It opened in 1940 and recently underwent a renovation project.  The details of which I don't have other than an article I have a copy of from the Triad Golf Today Magazine.

Chris
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2002, 05:00:27 AM »
Was the Reynolds family involved in the development of Roaring Gap?  

I had heard they were.

Bob
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bryan_Pennington

Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2002, 05:44:30 AM »
Dunlop,

I was familiar with Tanglewood and Forsyth.  I was curious if the Reynolds family had direct involvement (like Old Town) in other courses (like Roaring Gap).  I know some of the plantations in Alabama have 9 hole Ross courses, and I was curious if the Reyolds ever built anything similar.  

On an aside, do you know anything about the 9-hole Ross course in Alabama at (I think) either Eon or Seahoy?  I might have a chance to worm may way on to the course this summer and was curious if it had any architectural significance other than just a Ross course.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Town Club
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2002, 06:26:20 AM »
Dunlop,
     Tanglewood's two courses have been called the Championship and Reynolds courses as long as I've been a NC resident (since 1994).  I like the Championship course, as every now and then I like courses that demand the aerial game into greens.  There are a couple RTJ signature pinched landing areas (#3 and #5) that are awkward, in addition to an awkward drive on #13.  #9 and #18 are two of the better (and demanding) finishing holes on nines around.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »