John Reid: first pro in Philadelphia (and he laid out/fixed up many courses)

[Joe Bausch]

This 1921 article from the Evening Public Ledger gives lots of good info on John Reid. 

(click on the article to expand it if your browser doesn't automatically do so)

[Tom_Doak]

Joe:

I have seen John Reid's name on a couple of courses, and wondered if he was related to the gentleman who laid out the original St. Andrews Golf Club course in New York.  Apparently not as there is no mention of it here ... even as much as Philadelphia writers hate New York, you would think if the two were related, the writer would have been compelled to mention it.

[Rory Connaughton]

Great find Joe.  No mention there about seeding the greens with wheat though?

[Mike Cirba]

Joe,

I am on crackberry for the next few hours...does the article list all of the courses he designed?

[Joe Bausch]

Joe,

I am on crackberry for the next few hours...does the article list all of the courses he designed?

No, it does not.  But it lists a handful. 

Here is the exact quote:

In addition to the Country Club and Huntingdon Valley, he fixed up Frankford, Philmont, Aronimink, Llanerch, Overbrook, Wilmington Country Club, Northfield at Atlantic City, Lancaster, Reading, Richmond, Scranton, and Fox Hills Country Club.

[Mike Cirba]

Thx Joe...

All the ones I knew and several I did not are listed.

[Kyle Harris]

Interesting about Reading...

[Mike Cirba]

Kyle,

I think that may have been an earlier course.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

I think that may have been an earlier course.

I figured as well, but on the same site? Would Findlay have retained any holes? That's certainly not unheard of for Mr. Reid's work.

[Mike Cirba]

Kyle,

Dunno but can find out.

[Tom MacWood]

Can you date the years he laid out and fixed those courses?

[Mike Cirba]

Can you date the years he laid out and fixed those courses?

Tom,

Any particular course(s) dates you're particularly interested in?

I have a good idea of a number of them.

[Mike Cirba]

Kyle,

The Reading Country Club course we know today was the first on that site, and opened in 1923.

I have some fantastic articles that describe Alex Findlay's work there, including hole by hole descriptions, but which also credit him with Berkshire CC in the same town.

More to come.

[Mike_Trenham]

My father is the historian for the Philadelphia PGA.  This is from his cronical on the PhillyPGA.com website.  He is always looking for new information.  Here is some of what Pete knows.

He had no connection to John Reid of NYC.

A few links attached also

http://philadelphia.pga.com/sectionhistory/
http://philadelphia.pga.com/gui/philly9/filedownload/1895%20to%201915%20Leaders%20&%20Legends.pdf

John “Jack” Reid
John Reid was born in Scotland in 1874. He immigrated to the United States in 1895
and that year, as the Philadelphia Country Club’s professional, he played in what was the
first official U.S. Open. As well as being a golf professional he was also a green
superintendent and a golf course designer. Between 1897 and 1901 he laid out the first golf
courses for the Huntingdon Valley Country Club, Belfield Golf Club, Atlantic City
Country Club, Riverton Country Club, Wilmington Country Club, Philmont Country Club
and the Lancaster Country Club. For his work at the Lancaster Country Club he was paid
$28. He served as the pro-green superintendent at eleven clubs in the Philadelphia Section.
Reid’s most lasting creation was probably what would come to be called the South Course
at Philmont Country Club. Reid completed the first nine holes in 1907 and the second nine
opened for play two years later. In 1911 Reid went to work at the Country Club of Scranton
building nine new holes for the club and nine years later he built nine holes for the newly
organized Fox Hill Country Club. Several times he was hired to put a new course in
playing condition after the contractor had completed his work. This happened at Atlantic
City Country Club, the Berkshire Country Club and the Gulph Mills Golf Club. Reid
played an important role in the first thirty-five years of golf in the Philadelphia region. He
was not related to the John Reid who was considered to be the father of American golf.

[Tom MacWood]

Can you date the years he laid out and fixed those courses?

Tom,

Any particular course(s) dates you're particularly interested in?

I have a good idea of a number of them.

The courses mentioned in the article.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Here's what I have;

Philmont - 1907, 1909
Llanerch - 1901
Wilmington - 1901
Atlantic City - 1897
Fox Hill - 1921

I believe most of the rest were between 1897 and 1910.

[TEPaul]

"Joe:
I have seen John Reid's name on a couple of courses, and wondered if he was related to the gentleman who laid out the original St. Andrews Golf Club course in New York.  Apparently not as there is no mention of it here ... even as much as Philadelphia writers hate New York, you would think if the two were related, the writer would have been compelled to mention it."


TomD:

As Mike Trenham comprehensively documented, John Reid, the very early Philadelphia pro, was definitely NOT related to John Reid, the apparent father of St Andrews in New York.

However, since both of them were certainly very much involved in and quite important to early American golf and architecture it might be very interesting for someone to do a "compare and contrast" piece on the two. If one did that accurately I'm afraid it would be pretty light on the "compare" side and very heavy on the "contrast" side!

Since John Reid, the pro, was one of the very early pros (greenkeeper) at my club, GMGC, I might give it a shot someday.

[Tom MacWood]

I recently found a 9/1909 blurb in American Golfer that mentioned the projects HH Barker was working on at the time. I knew of them all (including Bedford Springs) except one - the remodeling of Philmont. I understand Philmont added a second nine in 1908/1909 and also implemented a new bunkering scheme later in 1909. In that past I've seen John Reid credited for the first and second nine.

Was Barker involved in adding the second nine or the new bunkering scheme, or both?

[RSLivingston_III]

I've come across this Reid a couple of times and wondered if there was any relationship with the John Reid of St. Andrews GC (NY).

[Tom MacWood]

Ralph
To my knowledge there is no relation.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

One of the things that makes these attribution discussions so difficult sometimes is the amount of confliciting evidence.

Do you think like others later that Barker may have simply listed anywhere he may have "consulted", which is very loosely defined?   

I've not seen any evidence prior of Barker at Philmont or Bedford Springs.   Also, the remodeling and rebunkering of Philmont took place in the 1914-1916 timeframe.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
What conflicting information?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

I read the article you're speaking about and the only confilicting info I have is that Philmont's second nine built around that same time period was designed by John Reid and Oglesby Paul.  

If Barker was involved too, that's great, and I appreciate you finding it, but I don't believe anything we've seen in the local press indicated that.

Similarly for Bedford Springs, I haven't heard of Barker's involvment previously.   I know Spencer Oldham designed the first course there, followed later with major revisions by Tilly and Ross.

I do just wish there was more details, as I'm sure you do as well.  

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

I read the article you're speaking about and the only confilicting info I have is that Philmont's second nine built around that same time period was designed by John Reid and Oglesby Paul.

Where did you find that info?  

If Barker was involved too, that's great, and I appreciate you finding it, but I don't believe anything we've seen in the local press indicated that.

Similarly for Bedford Springs, I haven't heard of Barker's involvment previously.   I know Spencer Oldham designed the first course there, followed later with major revisions by Tilly and Ross.

When did Tilly revise the golf course, and what is the source of that info?

I do just wish there was more details, as I'm sure you do as well.  

[Tom MacWood]

That is what I have on the chain of events at Philmont:

* the club was founded in 1907 and nine course was laid out by John Reid the professional
* in June 1909 it was reported that the club had purchased 54 additional acres and the nine hole course was increased to 18
* in July 1909 Walter Travis played in event at Philmont, partnered with Elis Gimbel, the president of the club against Reid and the VP of the club. Travis and Gimbel won; Travis set the course record. At a dinner afterward honoring Travis the table was decorating with a large model of the new 18-hole course including all the bunkers, mounds and other hazards.
* in August 1909 American Golfer reported on that event and discussed the new golf course. The article said the green committee had refrained from putting in bunkers to any extent, allowing observation of play on the course so as to know the best location for hazards. A very comprehensive modern bunkering scheme however had been prepared and work would be begin shortly.
* in September 1909 American Golfer reported that Barker had been engaged by Philmont
* a 1925 article profiling Philmont (in the Phila. North American) reiterates Reid designed the original nine, and also added the second in 1909 with Ogelsby Paul, a landscape architect.

If I was to guess I'd say Baker was the person responsible for the new modern bunkering scheme (probably reflected in the model), and was not involved in adding the new nine. Modern bunkering schemes was one of his specialities based on his involvement re-bunkering GCGC with Travis. That same year he put in a new bunkering scheme at Springhaven, also in Philadelphia.